Poll: There are only 2 genders....right?

TallanKhan

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OK lets refer to the World Health Organisation to define sex and gender for us:

""Sex" refers to the biological and physiological characteristics that define men and women."

""Gender" refers to the socially constructed roles, behaviours, activities, and attributes that a given society considers appropriate for men and women."


- http://www.who.int/gender/whatisgender/en/

On that basis, if you accept gender as a social construct then it could be argued that there can be as many genders as people want there to be.
 

Tiger King

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Azure23 said:
The ethnocentrism in this thread is staggering. Did some of these people simply never take anthropology classes? In the western world we have an annoying tendency to conflate gender and sex and come up with all sorts of flimsy justifications why we think that way, when in reality gender has far more to do with cultural and anthropological influences than just biological sex. Many cultures in the world have more than two gender identities. The anthropologists, sociologists, sexologists, and psychiatrists of our time recognize that gender is a spectrum, it's pretty damn arrogant (not to mention obtuse) to simply define gender on the basis of biology. And even then, intersex individuals exist, there are many different chromosome alignments (some of them not exactly functional but still, it's biology.)
Well actually no :/
anthropology isn't really something that employers look for in a skill set so that one was given a miss.
 

Trippy Turtle

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Two genders.
People have been saying lately that gender is not physical, rather our own mental interpretation of our sex or something. I think if they believe this they should just create a new term that isn't already publicly accepted to mean something else to reduce confusion.
People can feel how they want to feel. I don't care if they believe that they are 9 different genders and live on 27 different planes of existence on a physical spectrum that breaches the time-space-music continuum. That's up to them. With that said, they can't make others accept that they are a gender fluid trisexual or something when they clearly were born with, and still have a dick. They might be a very feminine dude, but by my reckoning, they are still a dude. Wanting to be something and physically being something are two different things. No amount of research or positive reinforcement is going to change that.



Seems pretty hypocritical to be preaching how gender is all about personal views and stuff, then turn around and say "Your personal view is wrong" anyway.
 

Notshauna

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LeathermanKick25 said:
Notshauna said:
LeathermanKick25 said:
So basically you're willingly being a dick. By that logic I could, rightfully so, refer to you as a dick in every regard and you'd have absolutely no problems with it. And no you don't deliberately misgender transpeople because it more "scientifically accurate" because it's not (seriously read a goddamned book on the subject written in the past 20 years), and it's not for a lack of caring because if you had no strong feelings either way on the subject matter you'd just gender us how we want to be gendered. It's simple you're hiding behind elementary pseudo-science and faked apathy to hide the fact that you're no better than the people who burnt "witches". You're dumb and afraid not of transpeople but of anything that challenges you're established world view.
You can refer to me as a dick all you want. I don't care. I've been called far worse by people who I actually respect and I didn't care.

Is it not biologically accurate to call someone with a penis a man and someone with a vagina a woman? I know there are cases where a biological woman was born with female breasts and a penis, then you've got the whole hermaphrodite side. But they're so rare it's no point trying to argue the specifics.

No better than the people who tried to burn witches? That's a hell of a leap, but a funny one regardless.
I don't expect me calling you a dick would annoy you, nor would you calling me a man or he etc would. Neither of us really cares what the other thinks of them. But the example was that it's willingly using a term to try and offend someone under the bullshit guise of "correctness".

It isn't "biologically accurate" because pronouns refer to gender. Calling a transperson the wrong gender is just wrong, it's not a matter of opinion, gender is mental sex is physical. And even if you take the (incorrect) opinion that pronouns are based of sex, how do you refer to intersex people, transpeople post-SRS, XX males and XY females, and numerous other chromosomal abnormalities? Are you going to ignore them and offer an inconsistent and confusing system? Or are you going to make a messy system that actually applies to people and not your mental image of them. (plus using the term hermaphrodite when trying to agree a scientific based opinion is pretty funny)

And while the example is super dramatic, it's the same reasoning as burning witches. It's lack of understanding, dogmatic acceptance of falsehoods and fear of the unknown.

Trippy Turtle said:
Seems pretty hypocritical to be preaching how gender is all about personal views and stuff, then turn around and say "Your personal view is wrong" anyway
There is a difference between me saying I'm this and you saying no I'm not. That not hypocrisy, that's recognizing the difference between having an opinion based of stimuli and facts and having one off ignorance.
 

KyuubiNoKitsune-Hime

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LeathermanKick25 said:
Not physically strong or fast enough? Then become faster, become stronger. I never had much intention of going to a gym growing up. I still had to in order to survive. I never said it was fair or reasonable. If you play the victim card, you'll be treated like a victim. Simple as that. And nothings going to get done in that way. On this very site people have said how at this point a lot of people simply don't give a shit because trans cry victim without doing anything about it, and just take to flinging shit at others because "I'm trans I'm a victim". Not to mention how any slight jab you find remotely offensive you take it as a personal insult and again bring up "but we're getting murdered every day". How do you think things are going to change when you're alienating yourself like that? Because that's exactly what you're doing.

I don't need an excuse to be insensitive or whatever other insults you want to throw my way. I don't care what you think of me. I don't care about you or your troubles either, hell I don't even have to respect you or your wishes or any of that. You and your people are not the only ones who have had a hard life. You're not the only people who have had to fight to survive, to learn to defend yourself from a young age. You're not the only people who get fucked in the legal system. Shit things happening to good people is a universal thing.

And even still, you're not going to change all of the injustice in the world, whether it's against trans or whoever by crying foul on a forum like this.
Like as PaulH has pointed out, being on HRT and post orchiectomy, or on anti-androgen drugs, makes it difficult to build strength, due in large part to a lack of testosterone(usually significantly less than even women have/produce). Also please try not to apply your standards to everyone else, some of us have other unrelated physical issues that may limit us physically, trans, or not. Sure life isn't fair, but that doesn't mean everyone has to be up to your personal standards on everything, especially because as a military man you have some pretty high standards. I'm not trying to be an asshole here, but I know it's been a bit heated in this debate, for my part I apologize for that, but it does rile me up. Aside from that the "shit flinging" is coming just as hard from the other side just because they have a problem with us having a problem with anything. Like I said trans people tend to be sensitive on these issues and for damn good reasons. Also being victimized is traumatic, you should know this, being victimized on a regular basis for every part of who you are just makes things that much worse. So please try to understand that it's more than "people have to deal with shittyness in life" for trans people, we have to deal with constant shittyness from every side and having to defend ourselves on every god damn little thing. That's part of what being marginalized means.

As for the jabs, and bringing up why we find them especially egregious, it's again part of being marginalized, along with being constantly harassed and targeted. This is doubly true because we didn't ask to be like this, and the mistreatment isn't a side thing, it's systemic. A systemic problem with a marginalized, harassed, and abused group is of course going to make every little thing especially egregious, gays and lesbians didn't start getting more protection by being quiet and sucking it up. Well guess what the trans community isn't going to get anywhere by shutting up and just taking it either, we need to stand up for ourselves and our rights.

Pointing out bad and/or anti-social behaviour isn't an insult, if I say you're being insensitive then I'm pointing out that's the behaviour you're employing. Acting like a jerk doesn't absolutely mean you are a jerk as a person, it just means that's how you're acting. Of course you don't have to be sensitive to my position, respect my wishes, or even tolerate me on a personal level. But doing so actively, then justifying it also isn't going to make you look very good on a social level to anyone.

Learning to defend our selves is a good thing, a helpful thing, but it's not always going to work, especially when we're heavily targeted for abuse. More risk means more chance of failure which can be fatal. Not to mention that defending myself can be used against me to royally screw me over legally. It's almost a lose/lose situation. Sure it happens to a lot of people, but I'm saying that specifically, being trans can actually invalidate my rights. As for people getting screwed by the legal system in general? Yeah that sucks, but most people aren't systematically targeted in the legal system and denied justice either, trans people however are. Shit does happen to good people, yes, but for trans people things tend to be systematically shitty.

Still helping people understand, be more understanding, even if they disagree personally, helps, even if it's on a small scale. You don't win a war by shooting one guy on the other side, it's all the battles and skirmishes, no matter how big, or little, that contribute to the whole. Even if that's as small as just trying to explain how bad things can and tend to be for a group on a forum. I'm just one person I don't expect to fix injustices and problems in the world, or my country, my state, my town, or even individual people. That also doesn't mean that I shouldn't state my opinion, and try to get people to understand either.
 

Notshauna

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LeathermanKick25 said:
Notshauna said:
LeathermanKick25 said:
Notshauna said:
LeathermanKick25 said:
So basically you're willingly being a dick. By that logic I could, rightfully so, refer to you as a dick in every regard and you'd have absolutely no problems with it. And no you don't deliberately misgender transpeople because it more "scientifically accurate" because it's not (seriously read a goddamned book on the subject written in the past 20 years), and it's not for a lack of caring because if you had no strong feelings either way on the subject matter you'd just gender us how we want to be gendered. It's simple you're hiding behind elementary pseudo-science and faked apathy to hide the fact that you're no better than the people who burnt "witches". You're dumb and afraid not of transpeople but of anything that challenges you're established world view.
You can refer to me as a dick all you want. I don't care. I've been called far worse by people who I actually respect and I didn't care.

Is it not biologically accurate to call someone with a penis a man and someone with a vagina a woman? I know there are cases where a biological woman was born with female breasts and a penis, then you've got the whole hermaphrodite side. But they're so rare it's no point trying to argue the specifics.

No better than the people who tried to burn witches? That's a hell of a leap, but a funny one regardless.
I don't expect me calling you a dick would annoy you, nor would you calling me a man or he etc would. Neither of us really cares what the other thinks of them. But the example was that it's willingly using a term to try and offend someone under the bullshit guise of "correctness".

It isn't "biologically accurate" because pronouns refer to gender. Calling a transperson the wrong gender is just wrong, it's not a matter of opinion, gender is mental sex is physical. And even if you take the (incorrect) opinion that pronouns are based of sex, how do you refer to intersex people, transpeople post-SRS, XX males and XY females, and numerous other chromosomal abnormalities? Are you going to ignore them and offer an inconsistent and confusing system? Or are you going to make a messy system that actually applies to people and not your mental image of them. (plus using the term hermaphrodite when trying to agree a scientific based opinion is pretty funny)

And while the example is super dramatic, it's the same reasoning as burning witches. It's lack of understanding, dogmatic acceptance of falsehoods and fear of the unknown.
I'm not trying to offend anyone, and whoever is offended. Well like I've already said, I don't care? People seem to be under the impression that being offended should actually mean something. I don't give the littlest of shits if I offend you by calling you a woman while you identify as a man. I don't care nor do I need too. It being wrong is (funnily enough) your opinion. And once again, I don't care about that either.

What's wrong with filing them under chromosomal abnormalities? What's wrong with saying it's not normal or abnormal? Fuck the negative connotations that come with it. If you're so thin skinned that being called abnormal hurts you, you're gonna have a hell of a time in this world.

And no, it's not even remotely comparable to burning witches. I understand trans people fine and I'm not fearful of them either. I just don't care for all there whiney bullshit about how they want to be referred to as because of some identity crisis they have.
If you didn't care you'd just refer to people by their chosen pronouns. Like you're actively choosing something that causes you more conflict AND makes people unhappy, that's not a lack of care. And pronouns being linked to gender isn't an opinion it's a fact, as in the authority figures on the subject matter sat and decided that it was for pronouns. It's an opinion like the sky is called the sky not Robert, that 1 + 1 = 2 and that water is wet. And again with the faux apathy if you don't care you'd take the path of least resistance.

I literally used the word abnormalities, I'm not pretending that there isn't a normal on an individual criteria. What sex based pronoun do you give these people, because they don't fit in with the sex based pronoun "theory" but do with gender based. Of course you can't because there are exceptions to all these rules, and that's why it HAS to be gender based.

And if you want to claim understanding of a group of people you should probably avoid immediately following it with a sentence that proves you don't.
 

Knight Captain Kerr

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Another day, another opportunity for heteronormativity to annoy me. Anyway, disagree. Much like how sexuality isn't just heterosexual and homosexual there are gender identities that aren't just male and female.

Also as people have already said Gender =/= Sex. And even sex isn't as simple as male/famale because intersex people exist.
 

KyuubiNoKitsune-Hime

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You know the more I see the more it worries me how society is progressing in terms of understanding gender as an identity, instead of misusing gender in place of sex. I think that the worst part is how many people are ignorant of gender diversity, and how many doggedly stick to that ignorance out of spite, especially where transgendered people are concerned. Then people insist they understand transgenderism, then say say something about beliefs and totally invalidate themselves by proving they don't understand at all...
 

Parasondox

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KyuubiNoKitsune-Hime said:
You know the more I see the more it worries me how society is progressing in terms of understanding gender as an identity, instead of misusing gender in place of sex. I think that the worst part is how many people are ignorant of gender diversity, and how many doggedly stick to that ignorance out of spite, especially where transgendered people are concerned. Then people insist they understand transgenderism, then say say something about beliefs and totally invalidate themselves by proving they don't understand at all...
It's also why we can't have nice things anymore because everyone fights about it. All I can suggest for now is to take a break from the internet once in a while because it will leave you feeling more down and screaming at those who are being a dick for the sake of, "I'M BETTER THAN YOU AND HERE IS WHY". Not worth the headache.
 

chikusho

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LeathermanKick25 said:
I never claimed I had some magical ability to tell what junk they're carrying. But if I know you, and I know you're carrying a wedding tackle between your legs. You're a man, no matter how much you want to identify as something else.
I hope you understand that it's the exact same processes that make you self-identify with your sex and/or gender that makes trans people self-identify with the opposite sex and/or gender. You just have the privilege of holding a commonly accepted self-perception that will not be questioned at every turn.
And even though it would take literally no effort for you to accept or respect another persons self-perception, you actually make a point out of denying it. I don't know if this kind of behavior is caused by a lack of understanding, a lack of empathy or a need to point out people as an "other" to reinforce the persons own normality. And frankly, I don't really know which is worse.

LeathermanKick25 said:
If I went around all day in Jedi robes, spoke like Yoda and swung around a fake lightsaber and said I identify as a Jedi. That doesn't make me a Jedi.
But if a friend of yours changed his or her name, would you continue to refer to them by the old name simply out of spite?
 

TwistednMean

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Gender is defined by biological sex. If it wasn't than transgender people wouldn't be a thing. They simply wouldn't care about their genetalia at all.

So, I reckon, feeling like a man in a woman's body or vice versa is reasonable, albeit being an exceedingly rare condition. But self-identifying as third gender or attack helicopter doesn't make other genders exist other than in this one's own head.
 

KyuubiNoKitsune-Hime

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TwistednMean said:
Gender is defined by biological sex. If it wasn't than transgender people wouldn't be a thing. They simply wouldn't care about their genetalia at all.

So, I reckon, feeling like a man in a woman's body or vice versa is reasonable, albeit being an exceedingly rare condition. But self-identifying as third gender or attack helicopter doesn't make other genders exist other than in this one's own head.
You do understand that binary gender identity is a western thing, and gender roles are really a western world thing. Many cultures have varied different gender types 3, 4, 5 and more for some. Anthropologically speaking gender roles exist as social imperatives for the structure and support of human clans/tribes/whatever other primitive society. Also how well one identifies with either gender, how they preset in gendered ways, and even what gender roles they fill vary even amongst cisgender people. That makes gender an array of behaviours and a scale of individual identity. The simple short version is that gender and how we conform to it is defined within ourselves in relation to our society. It's a part of how we identify, not what we physically are.

Also because apparently nobody can read: Biological sex and gender are not the same thing.
 

DrownedAmmet

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TwistednMean said:
Gender is defined by biological sex. If it wasn't than transgender people wouldn't be a thing. They simply wouldn't care about their genetalia at all.

So, I reckon, feeling like a man in a woman's body or vice versa is reasonable, albeit being an exceedingly rare condition. But self-identifying as third gender or attack helicopter doesn't make other genders exist other than in this one's own head.
So you think saying "I don't really feel like a man or a woman, I am a different gender."
Is the same as saying "I am a helicopter! WHIIIIIIIRRRRRRRR PEW PEW PEW!! BLAM, BLAM, BLAM, KAPOW!!!"
 

The_Darkness

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Okay.

Say that someone you know approaches you and informs you that they have a preferred pronoun. Maybe they prefer to be called 'she' when you'd have thought of them as a 'he'. Or maybe you see them as 'she' when they actually identify as 'they'. Or whichever variation - zhe and shi are also sometimes used, as are other examples.

The point is: This person has told you which pronoun they prefer.

Isn't it just... nicer to respect those wishes? What does it cost you? It clearly means something to them if they felt the need to ask you. Why does it mean more to you to not do so?

I'm not transgender. I don't fully understand what they have to go through. But the world becomes a brighter place if we're generally nicer and more accepting towards one-and-other, and I see no reason not to be in this context.
 

bartholen_v1legacy

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The_Darkness said:
Okay.

Say that someone you know approaches you and informs you that they have a preferred pronoun. Maybe they prefer to be called 'she' when you'd have thought of them as a 'he'. Or maybe you see them as 'she' when they actually identify as 'they'. Or whichever variation - zhe and shi are also sometimes used, as are other examples.

The point is: This person has told you which pronoun they prefer.

Isn't it just... nicer to respect those wishes? What does it cost you? It clearly means something to them if they felt the need to ask you. Why does it mean more to you to not do so?

I'm not transgender. I don't fully understand what they have to go through. But the world becomes a brighter place if we're generally nicer and more accepting towards one-and-other, and I see no reason not to be in this context.
I see where you're coming from, but I'd rather not reinforce their sense of self-entitlement. And besides, don't you usually use third person pronouns when the person in question is not present, or at least in instant hearing vicinity? In that case, what harm has been done if they haven't heard you referring to them with an undesired pronoun? Failing that, you could just refer to them by their name, or use "they". I don't like the idea of having to put people up on special pedestals and having to specifically refer to them by their desired pronoun just because they ask me to. I'm not trans, nor do I know one, but observing it from just a person perspective, that kind of request makes the asker seem insecure IMO.

Not that the matter bothers me for shit, I live in a country in whose language pronouns are always gender neutral.

OT: I'm of the camp that thinks there are only 2 genders (or sex for you language police officers), 2.5 if you want to include transgendered people. No matter what, there can, and always will be, only two kinds of things you can find in between a person's legs. Sometimes you can find both. Sometimes someone has switched from one side to the other. The day we find a wriggling mass of tentacles between a newborn's legs I'm willing to reevaluate my stance. Provided I can get past the celebrating Japanese people, if you know what I mean.
 

TwistednMean

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KyuubiNoKitsune-Hime said:
TwistednMean said:
Gender is defined by biological sex. If it wasn't than transgender people wouldn't be a thing. They simply wouldn't care about their genetalia at all.

So, I reckon, feeling like a man in a woman's body or vice versa is reasonable, albeit being an exceedingly rare condition. But self-identifying as third gender or attack helicopter doesn't make other genders exist other than in this one's own head.
You do understand that binary gender identity is a western thing, and gender roles are really a western world thing. Many cultures have varied different gender types 3, 4, 5 and more for some. Anthropologically speaking gender roles exist as social imperatives for the structure and support of human clans/tribes/whatever other primitive society.
Citation needed

Seriously, you cannot just claim such ridiculous things and give no source. I have studies plenty of ancient cultures and I have never heard of anything like that.

DrownedAmmet said:
TwistednMean said:
So, I reckon, feeling like a man in a woman's body or vice versa is reasonable, albeit being an exceedingly rare condition. But self-identifying as third gender or attack helicopter doesn't make other genders exist other than in this one's own head.
So you think saying "I don't really feel like a man or a woman, I am a different gender."
Is the same as saying "I am a helicopter! WHIIIIIIIRRRRRRRR PEW PEW PEW!! BLAM, BLAM, BLAM, KAPOW!!!"
You are correct, my good man. Or woman. Or other-gendered human being. Or attack helicopter.
 

AT God

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I understand the OP's point, however I think gender is the wrong term, I sort of support the idea that there are only two sexes, male or female, since sex is purely physical. Although that technically isn't true because there are numerous birth defects and other conditions that lock people out of either sex and therefore their gender is used as a more defining term.

I get that people feel there should be only two sexes, every animal (that I know of, probably a few exceptions) on earth has only two sexes and it feels like humans having more than two is much more of humans wanting to be special than anything else. However, gender is the wrong term, there can be many more than two genders, one could argue there are infinite since only the individual knows their own gender. I do feel that sex should remain binary for the sake of scientific research. Social science already has enough issues equally representing two sexes in research, adding in more would make a lot of important studies impossible. I don't even think there is a standardized way of categorizing transgendered people in studies at the moment.