Poll: To DRM or not to DRM.

Madman123456

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Feb 11, 2011
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This industry needs a bit of a trim. The best way to do that would be to annoy as many customers as possible and drive them away. Maybe, in a few years, there will be less committee design and more games. I'll be playing the few games that don't nuke my house if i play them.

The best way to drive as many customers away as you can would be with more intrusive DRM.
So, in a way, DRM really is the answer.
 

MeChaNiZ3D

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Aug 30, 2011
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Soopy said:
MeChaNiZ3D said:
Good post, your point is quite clear.

I can sympathize with your point of view, but what would you do to negate the need for DRM? Quite clearly there is a need, as it exists.
They do need some form of DRM, because unfortunately piracy does happen, whether or not pirates were ever going to purchase the game or not is largely irrelevant, you have to assume they would have or you're not going to last in business long.
What I would do, and it may become apparent that I shouldn't have responsibility of an industry, is have no DRM, establish a convenient digital distribution system and make launch prices about a third of what they are now, meaning $20 for a new game. At that price I think reselling games to fund new purchases wouldn't be as much of a necessity as it is now, and players would be more likely to hold onto old games for multiplayer or the possibility of DLC. It would also help to eliminate the portion of pirates who pirate games deliberately to avoid DRM, for price, or for convenience. Another thing is that assuming all pirates were going to buy your game is an unreasonable assumption to make, and I think would lead to overestimation of the playerbase following measures to reduce piracy that don't also make it easier and more convenient to play games. I would also make demos available for every game (a function the PS4 apparently has built-in) and ensure that old titles were made available for $1 digitally. I'm not sure how viable that last one would be, but I'd find out pretty quickly (possibly just promote fan-made conversions and pay the creators a portion of the earnings). A common complaint is that publishers try to ensure that games become unplayable in the future so they can resell them. I don't think that would be such an issue if they were a single dollar, and although I wouldn't have the games become redundant on their own through arbitrary in-game features or online shackling, the price would be for the convenience of having it on a new console.
 

Tayh

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PC gamers have, for many years, told the world that they are totally OK with DRM, as long as it comes with discounts and achievements.
Is it so surprising that consoles are moving to copy the DRM when steam has proven that people don't really mind it?
 

Headdrivehardscrew

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Aug 22, 2011
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Can't really vote on this, as none of the answers given seems to sum it up nicely for me.

Also, there seems to be some confusion going on when it comes to defining the very beast that is DRM.

In a nutshell, methinks pretty much everything is DRM. Some of the DRM I am absolutey cool with, say the requirement to always have the - original - disc inside the drive in, say, the PS3 in order to play a title. An improvement would be to be officially allowed to install games completely onto a - bigger - internal hard drive (7200rpm, please) without having to resort to... homebrew adventures. Microsoft seems to have understood the fun of installing things onto the hard drive, but they seem to have somehow pretty much lost it beyond that.

On PC, I no-disced every game that forced me to install trojan malware such as StarForce or Safedisc. Because a PC is used for many a thing, not just for gaming. It just wasn't practical. So, I am absolutely OK with license codes and what have you to serve as some unique proof-of-purchase for online gaming. I would have expected something like that to eventually pop up on consoles, but, alas, Microsoft, EA, Ubisoft and the merry rest pretty much ruined that for everyone, and the marketing trolls just don't seem to get a proper grip on the whole concept of selling stuff without pissing off the majority of their employer's target audience.

When it isn't riddled with hackers and other lowlife scum, Battlenet's own splendid Warcraft III, a title that is meanwhile ELEVEN YEARS OLD, is still fun to play. The only change I felt was that one expansion (Frozen Throne) and the added comfort of being able to download the game installation files directly from my personal account at Blizzard HQ, and they eventually skipped the CD-being-in-some-drive requirement, which is awesome.

On PS3, I dabbled with ye things that shall not be named, and I'm absolutely going back there once the PS3 is officially no longer supported (and it still runs). I have little tolerance when pretty much everything I want to do, which would also be pretty much everything the console could do is locked down, locked out, forbidden or otherwise not made available. I think it sucks that DVDs are locked down in arbitrary regions. I think it's pants-on-head retarded that I cannot just insert my JAP games into a US or PAL console and play away. I think it's not acceptable that I cannot buy the games I want on the various, annoyingly localized incarnations of the Playstation Network. I think it sucks that I may or may not get what I want, but might also end up with some censored crapfest stillbirth if I buy it in whatever retarded regime that tries to keep the world pure and free of Nazis, swastikas, jiggly boobs or pants. I think it's retarded when a violent game gets its blood changed to oil, its ragdoll effects removed or otherwise mutilated beyond recognition and gorey splish-sploshy fun. I think it sucks that I don't get warned when I'm about to get ripped off... and I think it sucks when some business honcho decides that I cannot install my legally bought game when I reside in cleansed Nazi-free Germany or when someone decides that I have to play with Russians when someone in an office far, far away drew some random demarcation line through my place of residence because history or because everyone in that neck of the wood must speak Russian. It's retarded. It's annoying. And instead of figuring out what works and sticking to it, random people seem to come up with the most random and ludicrous ideas and consider it DRM practices worth taking for a spin? I'm really quite fed up with this. Sure, there are some workarounds for most systems, but they all suck because they're all so crippled and limited compared to going full-on rogue and living a life of videogaming cybercrime, in which anything goes and the sky's the limit. Microsoft just made it look like all those arbitrary licensing issues and legal troubles are not solved after, what, twenty years of tinkering, they're only getting worse. We just revivved a YLOD-dead 60GB original release PS3, and I tell you - the lengths to which you have to go because of how locked down this system is - it's just damn scary seeing as how a lot of business suit types seem to get quite horny when they think about how locked down our current gen consoles are and our soon-to-be-released next gen consoles will be. The more totalitarian the control they have over the devices they want us to buy, the better? I think not.

And that just sucks hairy moose nipples.

Captcha: do more sit-ups

There you go. Wise words of the day right there.
 

Lovely Mixture

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Jul 12, 2011
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DRM doesn't work, there nearly always a work around.

Is it acceptable? Yes and no.

There is intrusive and restrictive DRM. Always-Online and Copy Protection. It hurts the paying customers and gives the pirates a better product. It's like bullshit gun laws. The laws will prevent law-abiding people from getting more guns, but the criminals aren't going to follow those laws.

Then there is tolerable DRM. Such as Steam, CD Keys, or single online activation. I tolerate Steam because it seems like the best compromise. Steam is like a bank or ATM, it protects games without putting too much pressure on the consumers.
 

Soopy

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Jul 15, 2011
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Tayh said:
PC gamers have, for many years, told the world that they are totally OK with DRM, as long as it comes with discounts and achievements.
Is it so surprising that consoles are moving to copy the DRM when steam has proven that people don't really mind it?
I don't think the surprise is that they're imitating steam, more so that they're imitating so poorly.
 

Sansha

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Nov 16, 2008
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We wouldn't have to be dealing with DRM if dipshit pirates weren't so bloody pervasive and determined to entitle themselves to free games.

Developers wouldn't have to protect themselves against piracy if people would stop stealing their goddamn games and bothered to actually buy them like everybody else.

We gamers have nobody to blame but them for causing the problems in the first place.

So I say let them keep experimenting with DRM. I say let them have always-online games, registrations, aligning your copy to your PC/console etc.
Let them keep going until they find a winning formula that doesn't bother we who buy games and bothers the shit out of the pricks who steal 'em.
 

Carnagath

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Apr 18, 2009
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Tayh said:
PC gamers have, for many years, told the world that they are totally OK with DRM, as long as it comes with discounts and achievements.
Is it so surprising that consoles are moving to copy the DRM when steam has proven that people don't really mind it?
Only they're not copying it. I'm fine with Steam because I buy all my games at under 10$ (sometimes under 5), and I'm talking AAA games here, sometimes less than 6 months old. In order to be ok with the X1, I'd expect not only that, but more from Microsoft, since they are selling hardware with an expiration date, which will most likely take your entire library down with it, unlike PC's. What I'm actually going to get from them however, is fuck all. If you expect to see 75% off popular games on the Xbox marketplace, you are seriously deluded.
 

Bryan Nolen

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Apr 12, 2012
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DRM is a problem, but then you remember that Steam is itself a form of DRM. The difference is that it give you FAR more than just control over coping the games and provides a full ecosystem and multiple publisher support.

It is not DRM for DRM sake.
 

conmag9

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Aug 4, 2008
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DRM doesn't work. It's counterproductive, as it usually gets smashed to pieces within hours after (hell, sometimes BEFORE) release, so the only ones dealing with it are paying customers, and do you really want to reward that with the constant undercurrent of "we hate you, you filthy infringer in the making". And beyond making a worse product, it's expensive to put in, especially the always online crap because you have servers to maintain on top of that. But of course those aren't going to be kept in perpetuity. Eventually they get turned off, and the money people spent to play your game suddenly looses all meaning and you get an expensive paperweight in place of your gaming system. Then of course you have to take time away from actually building the GAME to put in the DRM, and you've added another layer of awful to your feces cake of stupid business decisions.

The very acronym pisses me off. Provide people with an actual service (not DRM thinly disguised as such), make a quality product, and people will by it. Steam makes money hand over fist because they try not to inconvenience people and, to compensate for the fact that it IS a slightly more annoying experience sometimes, they sell their game at huge discounts. Why, it's almost as if digital distribution were capable of shaving large chunks of the cost from more traditional physical distribution, and those savings were passed onto the customers. You know, the people you're supposed to please, not antagonize?

Treat your customers as people, not talking wallets who get opinionated from time to time, and you can make money hand over fist. You know, the goal of most businesses? You'll never eliminate copywrite infringement, so focus on making money in spite of it.
 

CCountZero

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Soopy said:
They do need some form of DRM, because unfortunately piracy does happen, whether or not pirates were ever going to purchase the game or not is largely irrelevant, you have to assume they would have or you're not going to last in business long.
Seems to me that using DRM has more to do with pleasing a board of directors who don't know jack about how the world actually works, and/or has something to do with legal precedence and such.

The bottom line is that even an account-based online-only game like World of Warcraft can and has been cracked.

Most games get cracked within three days of release, and occasionally even prior to the release date.

The first game to use a brand new DRM solution might take a long time to hit the torrent sites, but after that first one, every subsequent game using the same system gets cracked quicker.

The bottom line is that DRM doesn't actually keep your product from being pirated. It simply doesn't work.
 

JohnDanison

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May 31, 2013
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I think you're missing the point. DRM sucks because it restricts how you can use the product you legally purchased -- not because it doesn't work as well as you'd like.
DRM is unacceptable in any form, and products that require it should be boycotted.
____________________________________________
-Dan Greenavis [http://greenavis.com/]
 

piinyouri

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Sansha said:
We wouldn't have to be dealing with DRM if dipshit pirates weren't so bloody pervasive and determined to entitle themselves to free games.

Developers wouldn't have to protect themselves against piracy if people would stop stealing their goddamn games and bothered to actually buy them like everybody else.

We gamers have nobody to blame but them for causing the problems in the first place.

So I say let them keep experimenting with DRM. I say let them have always-online games, registrations, aligning your copy to your PC/console etc.
Let them keep going until they find a winning formula that doesn't bother we who buy games and bothers the shit out of the pricks who steal 'em.
I get what you mean here, but this is just one war that will not end.

Short of using fucking fingerprint recognition, there is just about nothing that won't end up screwing over the paying customers, and doing nothing to people who choose to download the game.

So sure, maybe if downloading stopped entirely, the problem would resolve itself. But DRM of any sort isn't going to accomplish that, it will only continue to be a burden on paying customers.
 

Genocidicles

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Sep 13, 2012
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Soopy said:
If Microsoft announced that the games for Xbox-one were going to RRP for $20. Would that excuse the DRM measures in place?
Nope. Those DRM measures mean that one day you're games library will be worthless, because they'll take down the servers necessary to play them.

On topic, DRM is worthless.

You cannot, and will not stop pirates. Do not even try. The harder you try, the harder they'll pirate your stuff just to spite you.

And in trying to stop pirates, you harm paying customers. Paying customers who might see that pirates don't have to put up with bullshit DRM, and might turn to pirating themselves.
 

Griffolion

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Aug 18, 2009
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I'm not really against meeting a publisher half-way when it comes to DRM. I personally think Steam has got the best idea. It's non-intrusive, but affords enough confidence to publishers using Steam that their stuff is protected and can't just be ripped. I'm looking for an amicable relationship between publisher and consumer, not simply a reversal of the bend over spanking we are currently receiving from them.

I suppose the best way to go about it is to continue being a legitimate customer and speaking out against things that are wrong in the industry.
 

Artlover

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Apr 1, 2009
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Anti piracy methods of any kind do nothing to stop piracy. Never have, never well. Pirates just strip it all out and aren't effected by any of it. It only effect honest consumers, often turning them into pirates out of necessity since more then once, over zealous anti piracy measures have made honestly purchased games unplayable by those who bought them. Remember when HL2 launched. Yeah, the only people playing were the pirates, not the people who bought it who couldn't connect to the authentication servers. I know many people who bought the game, then had to download the pirated version just so they could play the f'in thing.

Piracy has NO EFFECT on sales. This BS that publishers give about lost sales is exactly that, BS. It's a made up theory of an assumption that everyone who downloaded it 'would have bought it' otherwise. Uh, no. Most of the people who downloaded it only did so because it was free. Both the GameCube and the PS3 had NO piracy for over the first 3 and a half years of their lives. Guess what the market's own numbers showed? Attach rates remained the same as those of pirated consoles during that time. No increase of sales. Only the people who buy games bought the games, as always, and the rest didn't despite that being the only option. The fact is, only so many people ever will buy games, and the rest never will. While an optimum anti-piracy measure might stop 'the rest' from ever playing it, it won't gain you any sales because as they already proved in the previous two generations, they will simply never buy it and go without it all together. Look at it this way... Ever eat a free sample of something you knew you were never going to buy? Ever go to some kind of event that you got free tickets to that you would never would have gone to otherwise? Same thing.

It's a money loser, even at best. How much money will one spend just to deny unauthorized people from playing your game for the sake of principle? Money that could be spent making games, or paying your people more. Even if you could argue that it might somehow increase sales, which we all know it doesn't, but if it did, would it be enough sales to offset the cost involved? Isn't the ultimate point to 'make money'? Isn't spending money on things that offer zero and/or negative returns called wasting money? They complain about the lost profit of lost sales, but not about the cost of failed attempts to stop it? Programmers complain about the bonuses they didn't get because of piracy. No, blame your company for spending your bonus money trying to vainly stop the pirates that aren't even effecting sale numbers.

Also, the whole idea that it is theft needs to be done away with. Imagine if your car was stolen, but when you came out, your car was still there. Imagine if your wallet was stolen, but when you reach in your pocket, your wallet was still there. That's piracy. Nothing is being "stolen" from anyone. It's not about theft, it's not about money, it's not about sales, it's about an arrogance that exists exclusively in the software world, and always has since day one. Content control. How dare you see what I did without compensating me directly for it. Same reason they are against the sale of used games, which is a strange position because even the movie, music and print industries aren't so selfishly moronic, despite them all being able to state the same arguments of intellectual property providing a user experience as the software industry does.

Even when piracy isn't available as an excuse, they will still complain. Remember Jeff Minter's rant about Space Giraffe. Full of himself arrogant jerk upset that his XBLA game wasn't getting the sales he though it deserved. Wasn't being stolen. Just no one wanted to play the crap. He's not alone in his self righteousness being blinded by his own grandeur. By and large, most programmers seem to exhibit those traits. That whatever they do is great, so if sales are low the problem must be stupid customer that don't appreciate it or piracy or whatever excuse they can float that doesn't revolve around admitting their game sucks, or at the least isn't as good as they think it is. Listen, if we listened to the parents, then every baby is beautiful, but you know what, there are ugly babies, that the couple that made it have a biased interest in not seeing it doesn't make it any less true.

Ultimately, if you want to limit piracy and maybe bump up sales a bit, then you need a new approach.

1) No DRM. It doesn't work and only hurts your honest customers.

2) Try before you buy. No, not some 5 minute demo of the best part of just a handful of new releases. Let me sit down and play ANY and EVERY game I want to try for a while so I can get the true feel for it. Xbox360 tried to do this a little bit, most demos were too short and not a big selection of games. But at least they tried. It was enough to show me Tropico 4 was junk and not to buy it.

3) Quit releasing garbage to make a quick buck. Way to many games truly suck. Way to many games rely blindly on a branding or a name with no real fun experience to back it up.

4) Refunds. Nothing sucks more then wasting your money on something that you can't even return. The idea that this is about preventing piracy is BS in today's world. If I wanted to pirate it, I'd just download it, I wouldn't go to the store, wait in line, buy it, come home, copy it, go back to the store, wait in line, return it and come home again. Can download it in less time without wasting gas and effort. Mail order buy & returns are even worse. Besides, most people 'can't' copy anything anyways because of the proprietary disc formats being used. This is why #3 is a such a problem. They don't have to make a good game, they just need to get enough people to buy it before word gets out because once they got your money, they have it and you're SOL.

5) Quit trying to interfere with the sale of used game sales. That I don't want it anymore and am selling it to someone else doesn't concern you at all. You have no right to double dip. x number of products were made and sold. You already got your cut from those sales. When all is said and done, you still have the same x number of products that you already made your profit from and same number of owners.

6) Sell your games at a reasonable cost. $60 a pop is hard to justify. Especially for many games today that only last a few hours. Don't want to hear about your costs. I don't expect you to license copyrighted music, I don't expect you to hire big name Hollywood voice actors, I don't expect you to license character likenesses. That is your choice, not my problem. Some people there must be a basement musician, let them compose the music for the game. Some people there must have decent speaking voices, let them do the voice overs. Some people there must not be hideously ugly, scan them for characters.

All of these points combined conspire to give honest people no reason to spend their money. If I'm going to waste $60 bucks, I rather do it by picking up a hooker or some drugs. At least those two options would be fun. Don't want to hear about reading reviews as a way to save my money. Some reviews tend to be biased because of direct and indirect sponsorship (how many times has Yahtzee released a positive review of a game just because this site was running site wide advertising of the same game at the time, only to retract it in a later episode?) Even the big boys like Gamespot and IGN aren't beyond influence. Besides, I don't care about the opinion of others, I only care about my opinion. As I like & hate games the majority likes and I like & hate games the majority hates. No rating or opinion by anyone else means anything to me. I'm sure I'm not the only one this applies to.

Bottom line, it's all BS. Every single thing about it.