I been knew its still juvenile as fuck when it comes to women, men, aliens, zombies, whatever. I knew this when I use to play Twisted Metal 3 and Duke Nukem Time to Kill with my friends in the 90's. I just deal with games I care for and really don't give a shit about those that I don't. I really don't care about if a character is being portrayed properly when it comes to "social norms" all I care for is does what the designers had in mind work for what they're trying to do with a narrative of their game, If it does more props to them.BloatedGuppy said:
Poll: Videogames and Women
- Thread starter CaptainKarma
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So your argument is basically "It doesn't affect me, therefore it is not an issue"?TheDooD said:
Yes, women come in all different forms, and there's nothing wrong with any of them. But videogames only present one shallow, adolescent view of women as a pair of walking tits. This damages the image of the women, is artistically shallow, and puts a lot of women off playing games.
I can't remember exactly, but I'm pretty sure Miranda's issues were how she got her looks and with her father, not the looks themselves. And even if you don't think that's enough of a distinction, there are still people with body issues who obsess over looking as good as they can.j-e-f-f-e-r-s said:
As for C), maybe she wears it because it helps her get her job done. Use what you've got.
(This is in relation to this specific instance, by the way, not my thoughts on the topic in general.)
Ummm...how shall I put this?
Any person or persons found herein to resemble actual living or other fictional characters is purely coincidental.
That is, it's not REAL, so don't let it bug you.
Any person or persons found herein to resemble actual living or other fictional characters is purely coincidental.
That is, it's not REAL, so don't let it bug you.
There's now something wrong with the pretty much worship of the female form when it comes to an artistic medium. If a woman is put off by that it's her not the artist. There's something called just enjoying something for what it is and not making it bigger then it needs to be. It's shallow yes but do we need to get torches and pitchforks every time a good looking female character is in a game hell no.CaptainKarma said:
I'm not gonna stop somebody from doing what they want if it's not hurting me because I just don't like it. That's the problem is the overreaching, some people need to realize gaming just might not be for them. like some people don't need to drive, shop, drink, etc. Everything in the world can't fit the mold for everybody. Trying to make it such would make it boring.
I was being facetious. I did not expect you to come back and literally say "I don't give a shit about things that do not effect me"TheDooD said:
You too, I'm pulling you into this.FalloutJack said:
I don't care whether or not you personally can shrug of the ubiquitous sexism in the industry. It puts other people off, its misogynistic and should stop. This is not a case of "i disagree with your aesthetics" or "i'm not into that style of writing". It's something that is demeaning to 51% of the planet.
Even saying "well maybe gaming isn't for them" is absurd. So maybe NO women should play games? What the hell is wrong with you. Do you want gaming to be more of a teenage male wank-fantasy than it already is?
Well, they aren't the first person to ever use THAT logic before either. Do you have a point?yunabomb said:You're not the first person to use that logic before. That's why he/she was able to link to explanations of your derailing problems instead of just writing it out.Zaik said:Farseer Lolotea said:
"I don't like that argument so I'll pretend it doesn't exist".
Congrats, you're doing the exact same thing you're bitching about, without even making a separate sentence to do it in.
Now it's obvious that the entire complaint is founded in hypocricy to begin with. How's your smug sense of moral superiority going to save you now?
You know a part of that 51% is perfectly fine with how it is now and they don't really care what about them? Plus do you really think girls are gonna suddenly buy games that are targeting them let alone companies are gonna back the production of them. They have to make money and until there's a visual rep of real female gamers. not the the special few that appear on TV that's when they'll get taken seriously.CaptainKarma said:
Enjoy the games for what they are games. Don't make it into something beyond what it needs to be. All characters of both sexes don't need to be down to earth, well rounded, emotionally balanced, bi sexual, average bodied, lab experiments just so nobody will feel offended and or left out.
This is not what I'm saying. What I'm saying is they should be more than gratuitous eyecandy.TheDooD said:
I guess this is where I'm confused. Ivy is an obviously sexual costume to me. Maybe it's because I'm a straight female and pay less attention (except I'm also an artist and really look at costumes...), but I don't see her as obvious eye candy with the exception of the cleavage-baring. Honestly, her outfit is something I'd wear for the hell of it, not because I give two craps about whether guys are ogling me, but because I like form-fitting clothes, if it were appropriate to wear random sci-fi costumes.j-e-f-f-e-r-s said:
I'll agree that the cleavage gap in her clothes is entirely unnecessary, but hell, I see people walking around outside wearing skimpier outfits than that bodysuit. I don't see people dressed like Ivy.
I'm aware that people can be sexy without having tons of skin showing, but you have to draw a line at what's blatant sexism somewhere. Sci-fi has had a long history of funky futuristic sleek clothes, and this usually involves them being not baggy -- i.e. tight. Either they're uniforms, or they're tight. I saw Miranda more as an attempt to make humans Apple-esque and sleek, rather than LOOK AT HER ASS LOOK AT IT.
Look at Jeffers commentCaptainKarma said:
Even when characters have something to attempt to balance out the design. If they're still sexy they're gonna say it's STILL wrong. So you want boring or do you want flash. Do you want what's pretty much a male character with tits and ass. Or do you want a female char that KNOWS what she is and isn't afraid to use what she has 100% to get the job done. If a girl is hot, smart and tougher then most guys then what the fuck is wrong. Hell most people bitching would have flaming pitchforks if instead of strong women they'll start making meek ones that cover up and needs their hands held all the time. Wouldn't that be a great game to play.j-e-f-f-e-r-s said:
Because the visuals of the character reduce her to something to be ogled at. The entire thing is built around the male gaze. This is bad regardless of what else the character has going on. Never have I said women cant be sexualised. I'm against the puerile objectification. Objectification of women = bad. How is this so hard for you to grasp?TheDooD said:
because it's not bad.CaptainKarma said:
Women ogled men, men ogled women and we can be happy with that. It's a damn white knights that you that want characters to be fucking BORING. So what if men look at it you realize some women like to look at it too and some want to be look at like that as well. You realize visuals are important to people right. They want something too look good and then anything pass that is additional substance. If you're willing to deny others to make you happy it makes you a prick. You can hate it all you want but you can't deny others what makes them happy. Hell when I see a good looking girl on the street I objectify them and base them only on their looks because that's ALL I'm working with. What don't you understand that what you want is NEVER gonna happen. There's gonna worse male and female roles, yet there also gonna be better. So all you have to do is just enjoy the games as they come and don't make a big deal out of it.
Mass effect was kind of a shame in that regard because it was just so blatant and unsublte and that point betrayed what othherwise was a good strong character. Titilation is fine but when you use it excessively to make up for other inadequeces then theres a problem.
Room for improvement, certainly.
But first thing, the Mass Effect example is a poor one since Miranda (the character in that screenshot) is supposed to be physically perfect (genetically engineered to that purpose) and be, among other things, very attractive. It is part of her character and her design to have and use any/every advantage, as she herself remarks upon. I consider this a mature and reasonable attitude, no more unusual than making her very intelligent and very fit.
If her attractiveness would have been the only thing to be purposefully altered, then it would have been a problem
As for the more apt examples, you must understand that games are a visual medium and in the same way you appreciate beautiful environments, you appreciate good looking characters. I'm certain that female gamers prefer a good looking avatar over an average looking one, same as males.
It's true that some games rely too much on sexy female character to draw in more sales, and that has more to do with the consumers than the developers in my opinion. Game studios DO actually want to earn money to, in the most charitable light, continue to produce games, and sadly a nice pair of breasts on the box has a better chance of garnering interest in their product.
Games are still a new medium, less "mature" than prose or film, so plenty of developers find it easier to resort to ... reliable ways of attracting attention.
I doubt most overly-sexual games are made so because the devs actually objectify women, but more because the audience objectifies women. It also has to do with having a much less mature audience than film or prose, since most gamers are young people. I expect this will change a lot over the next years since the early generation gamers are becoming older, thus bringing a new demographic to gaming.
But first thing, the Mass Effect example is a poor one since Miranda (the character in that screenshot) is supposed to be physically perfect (genetically engineered to that purpose) and be, among other things, very attractive. It is part of her character and her design to have and use any/every advantage, as she herself remarks upon. I consider this a mature and reasonable attitude, no more unusual than making her very intelligent and very fit.
If her attractiveness would have been the only thing to be purposefully altered, then it would have been a problem
As for the more apt examples, you must understand that games are a visual medium and in the same way you appreciate beautiful environments, you appreciate good looking characters. I'm certain that female gamers prefer a good looking avatar over an average looking one, same as males.
It's true that some games rely too much on sexy female character to draw in more sales, and that has more to do with the consumers than the developers in my opinion. Game studios DO actually want to earn money to, in the most charitable light, continue to produce games, and sadly a nice pair of breasts on the box has a better chance of garnering interest in their product.
Games are still a new medium, less "mature" than prose or film, so plenty of developers find it easier to resort to ... reliable ways of attracting attention.
I doubt most overly-sexual games are made so because the devs actually objectify women, but more because the audience objectifies women. It also has to do with having a much less mature audience than film or prose, since most gamers are young people. I expect this will change a lot over the next years since the early generation gamers are becoming older, thus bringing a new demographic to gaming.
It's a game don't bring real life logic into it.j-e-f-f-e-r-s said:Cheers for trying to make me look like some sort of relic from the 1950s. Oh those poor women, how will they ever cope with being independent, responsible human beings? Oh, if only they could stay in my kitchen, where it's safe and secure, and they can make me sammiches...TheDooD said:
My argument was not against women being both sexy and confident. My argument was against women being overly sexualised, while having some other token example of male wishful thinking chucked in to try and deflect attention.
Ivy is a character who spends her life fighting other people. She fights with a sword, and in the context of the game universe, risks her life each and every time she enters a new fight with an opponent. With that in mind, it would be reasonable to expect that she would be well-prepared for such conflicts, and would wear suitable attire with which to better defend her innards.
Instead, we get this:
According to Namco, a woman who spends her life in deadly combat wears suspenders, a thong, and a bit of string to hold her 32GGs together. And that's it. Not only that, she has somehow managed to spend her entire life fighting in this attire without accumulating a single scratch or scar on her body.
Anyone who goes into battle wearing a thong and a shoelace is going to get stabbed, no matter how good they are. Ivy's costume isn't an issue of her not being meek enough, it is down to the simple fact that it is an unbelievable outfit given the context, and serves to provide titillation and fanservice to the player over actual practicality as a defensive outfit. Which leads me to Mass Effect:
These are 2 of the female leads from Mass Effect 2:
One of them wears a bleached version of what is essentially the Catwoman outfit. The other wears a pair of dungaree bracers. There is nothing inherently bad in this itself. However, the game tries to tell me that these two characters are also combat ready allies who can wade into battle in these outfits and kick monumental ass.
This is the sort of thing women wear when on the battlefield;
Notice how these women have elected to wear unflattering but practical attire for the purposes of combat? That's because not getting shot is of far more importance in a combat situation than showing your fellow squaddie your ass.
Developers dressing women sexily isn't a bad thing. Developers designing scantily clad women, then putting them in the middle of a battle and trying to convince me they won't get stabbed/shot to pieces is not. It shows that they value sex appeal over the actual context of whatever situation they put these characters in.
Ivy is immortal and is pretty much a mage so she can heal any and all scars. She really doesn't have to worry about dying.
If you're trying to pull REALISM on Mass Effect 2 then Shep should have died in the prologue. They have the tech to revive Shep from the condition he was in, scars and bullets wounds ain't shit. So you can pretty much wear whatever as long as body is still intact they can bring you back if they wanted too.
i absolutely hate the way women are treated, ive been kicked from public servers numerous times just because i was a woman. usualy they automatacly think im a 12 year old kid because of my high pitched voice, then i have to try and convince them im a chick which usualy dosen't work... sigh.
Then it won't be unique, it'll be normal and guess what people are gonna want the flashy designs again. Let the designers do what they want it's their stories. If you want to change something do it yourself. Fuck these days Alyx is a cop-out yeah she's a great character yet how much she's used as a token character of how female characters in games SHOULD be. you'll realize she's pretty runs the course of the fangirl right? No female character is perfect and developers should create characters they want not what some sad white knights want.j-e-f-f-e-r-s said:TheDooD said:
Developers have already shown that they can create strong, relatable female characters who can be attractive (a seeming must in any work of fiction) without being objectified or sexualized.
Look at the pic of Alyx, and point out to me one part of her that has been sexualized in order to improve her appeal to the male demographic. Answer? There aren't any. Yet any chart that lists best female VG characters will have her riding high near the top.
My goodness! It's almost as if gamers can appreciate female characters that aren't dressed like fantasy hookers. Stop the presses!
If Valve can show that women don't need to objectified in games to still be successful characters, why shouldn't other developers try and match that, and raise the bar for female presence in games generally?