Poll: Videogames and Women

[Farseer Lolotea]

Oops, your argument, not mine.

Word of advice: saying what adds up to "NO U" doesn't help your cause.

I have expressed my opinions (other people have those, you know). You're welcome to disagree with my views but deciding that I'm wrong because my views differ from yours and quoting a few points that coincide with your views doesn't prove anything except that we disagree.

Save the energy you're wasting on me because until you're open to the fact that everyone with a vagina doesn't automatically agree with and support the whole "video games are picking on girls for these 1 million reasons" attitude and are open to sharing ideas with everyone; not just those who agree with you, you're gonna be quoting and copy/pasting rather frequently, I think.

Hey??you wanna get all touchy, break out the "but that's just your opinion!" non-argument, and stick your head in the sand? That's on you.

But as they say: if you're not part of the solution, you're part of the problem. And denying the existence of any problem at all doesn't change that. At all. (And no, being female is not the free pass you seem to perceive it as.)

So you're just complaining about how people are supposedly just diagreeing with your views because they differ(which is a laughable and overused defense that looks like a cop out), instead of defending your point at all. Well that's great. If you're just trying to distract from the issue.

Also, this.

 

[Iron Lightning]

And the community is barely any better. Friends of mine regularly keep their identities secret (unless teamspeak is involved) because of the torrent of abuse they get online. Don't believe me? Check out the fabulous http://fatuglyorslutty.com/ to see the vitriol lady gamers get.

I'm uncertain about the validity of this complaint. It seems to me that the sexist pigs who fuck with women for being women are oftentimes the same people who fuck with everyone simply because they're hidden beneath a veil of anonymity. As a man who plays online I've gotten a fair share of abuse from trash-talking simpletons merely for existing. People calling me a fag, kicking me for winning a game, sending me insulting messages, etc. Vitriol is nigh omnipresent in the multiplayer community.

Yes, the nature of insults hurled at women is different than those lobbed at men but I believe the reason for this is that the English language has gendered insults.

So, I'm not certain that the vitriol women get in multiplayer games is symptomatic of a pervasive sexist attitude against women so much as being the fault of the same immature punks who insult everyone.

Anyone, male or female, who has played multiplayer games for any significant period of time has a story about being insulted by some douchebag for no reason.

Of course, your example about the Battlefield 3 game opening is deplorable but you must remember, we're talking about EA here who as you know are the most horrible cockclowns in the medium. If Ice-Pick Lodge or Valve did something like this then I'd believe you more readily.

 

[Jinxzy]

It's sad to say but sex sells in advertisement. I mean look at any axe commercial they show that if you spray your body with the stuff, woman fall all over you. Even though I think the stuff smells awful. Even for woman, go look at any romance novel in a book store and there are men with perfect abs. Unfortunate we became a world based on sexual images.
It comes down to how mature people are and take theses images. Most people know it's something to ogle over and not really real. I mean even magazines mostly everything is photoshopped to look better.

 

[Farseer Lolotea]

I don't hate anyone who doesn't share my views (my opinions tend to be rather niche, to say the least) and I'm not force-feeding my views down anyone's throat.

Actually, when you imply that because it doesn't personally bother you, the complaints aren't valid? That's exactly what you're doing.

I'm uncertain about the validity of this complaint. It seems to me that the sexist pigs who fuck with women for being women are oftentimes the same people who fuck with everyone simply because they're hidden beneath a veil of anonymity. As a man who plays online I've gotten a fair share of abuse from trash-talking simpletons merely for existing. People calling me a fag, kicking me for winning a game, sending me insulting messages, etc. Vitriol is nigh omnipresent in the multiplayer community.

Yes, the nature of insults hurled at women is different than those lobbed at men but I believe the reason for this is that the English language has gendered insults.

So, I'm not certain that the vitriol women get in multiplayer games is symptomatic of a pervasive sexist attitude against women so much as being the fault of the same immature punks who insult everyone.

Trash talk or no, gendered insults and calling people "fags" are symptomatic. The implication is that if the insults have any truth to them, you're inferior.

We really don't need to stick to sexual images though and can object to so much of it. And romance novels don't really work as a good example because the product is kinda geared that way itself.

Also it is quite centric to heterosexual males when it comes to video games. It isn't just sexual imagery, it's sexual imagery trying to appeal to heterosexual males specifically for the most part.

It doesn't just come down to how we take these images, there's responsibility on the part of the people making these images.

Precisely.

So what would you have me do, then? Change everything about myself and report to you? Then run out and change again until you, personally, are satisfied? Seems reasonable.

I'm curious, when did it become your goal to convince me that this is such a gigantic issue? Are you confused? Do you think I have a major role in the industry that makes me responsible for this heinous problem you're clearly quite upset by?

No, it's far simpler than that: You could simply acknowledge that just because it doesn't personally bother you doesn't mean that it's not valid.

In other words: stop trying to shout people down, being condescending, setting up strawmen (i.e. that wanting as much variety in female characters as one sees in male characters = wanting all female characters in games to be ugly), and so on.

It's cool though, you need someone to take this frustration out on and looks like I won that prize.

Not really; you simply don't seem to know when to quit.

I'm fine with that but don't get too upset after you spend all this time going off on me only to find that there are still girls in video games who can't live up to your high standards for women, okay? (I like you!)

Again: it's certainly your right not to be bothered by it. But railing against the very suggestion that there is any sort of a real issue at all? That's another matter altogether.

 

[Savagezion]

It's sad to say but sex sells in advertisement. I mean look at any axe commercial they show that if you spray your body with the stuff, woman fall all over you.

Yeah, I got a bottle of axe and just stood outside spraying it all over me and everything around me and not one horny girl showed up. I was so pissed. I will say that men get those ads thrown at us more because the response (Commercially) is higher, usually between ages 16-24.

I wonder how many women thought that a Diet Coke in an elevator would lead to this:

 

[Jinxzy]

It's sad to say but sex sells in advertisement. I mean look at any axe commercial they show that if you spray your body with the stuff, woman fall all over you. Even though I think the stuff smells awful. Even for woman, go look at any romance novel in a book store and there are men with perfect abs. Unfortunate we became a world based on sexual images.
It comes down to how mature people are and take theses images. Most people know it's something to ogle over and not really real. I mean even magazines mostly everything is photoshopped to look better.

We really don't need to stick to sexual images though and can object to so much of it. And romance novels don't really work as a good example because the product is kinda geared that way itself.

Also it is quite centric to heterosexual males when it comes to video games. It isn't just sexual imagery, it's sexual imagery trying to appeal to heterosexual males specifically for the most part.

It doesn't just come down to how we take these images, there's responsibility on the part of the people making these images.

Romance novels are the number one top selling gene in books. But if that doesn't count then there's other commercials that sell hot sexy men to woman. Like the I can't believe it's not butter "french toast" advertisement. They use a shirtless bulky guy to sell butter to woman. If your going to find people responsible for selling these images you have to look at all types of media, not just video games.

So what if it's geared to heterosexual males? When your advertising you find the biggest pool of who is buying and sell to them. It's like selling any type of ad during the super bowl. Most of the commercials are towards men even thought woman watch the super bowl. Just like life time, oxygen all advertise woman products and spike tv, g4 advertises to men. Even though everything is becoming uni-sex, it's not going to stop people from selling sex or to certain groups. It's just how advertisement works.

 

[Savagezion]

I'm uncertain about the validity of this complaint. It seems to me that the sexist pigs who fuck with women for being women are oftentimes the same people who fuck with everyone simply because they're hidden beneath a veil of anonymity. As a man who plays online I've gotten a fair share of abuse from trash-talking simpletons merely for existing. People calling me a fag, kicking me for winning a game, sending me insulting messages, etc. Vitriol is nigh omnipresent in the multiplayer community.

Yes, the nature of insults hurled at women is different than those lobbed at men but I believe the reason for this is that the English language has gendered insults.

So, I'm not certain that the vitriol women get in multiplayer games is symptomatic of a pervasive sexist attitude against women so much as being the fault of the same immature punks who insult everyone.

Trash talk or no, gendered insults and calling people "fags" are symptomatic. The implication is that if the insults have any truth to them, you're inferior.

That's too mature an argument geared at immature minds.** That is also reading way too much thought process into an act of passion/hate. Someone just beat him at his favorite game, he is pissed. He calls them a "fag", they happen to be gay. So what? Does that mean being gay clearly IS something inferior? No. It just means this dude is pissed and wants to piss you off. Just send back "You are the one who can't beat a fag at this game." Watch him get even more pissed (fun) or watch him become cordial and turn out to be pretty cool. Don't online rage personal.

**I'm not calling Iron lightning immature, I actually agree pretty strongly with him. If someone sends me a text that says "Eat me, *****!" I don't take any offense. Hell, I actually take nothing but joy. A woman might very well read that and take personal offense because she is female, which honestly, is stupid. Because "*****" could just have easily been "******", "cracker", or "fag" or any other derogatory term. His intention was to insult the 'victim', not do it properly. If that happens to have weight, I am sure its just a bonus to him. The intention of the insult is to make you feel degraded. That's what insults are and why people say them.

 

[Jinxzy]

It's sad to say but sex sells in advertisement. I mean look at any axe commercial they show that if you spray your body with the stuff, woman fall all over you.

Yeah, I got a bottle of axe and just stood outside spraying it all over me and everything around me and not one horny girl showed up. I was so pissed. I will say that men get those ads thrown at us more because the response (Commercially) is higher, usually between ages 16-24.

I wonder how many women thought that a Diet Coke in an elevator would lead to this:

I'm going to drink diet coke all day long till he shows up. :x

 

[Riddle78]

We have some strong female characters that either weaponize their sexuality to intimidate the audience,like Bayonetta (the Game OverThinker picks this one apart,so check him out about that particular argument),while others simply throw sexuality aside,like that angel person in League of Legends,whose default skin is a suit of androgynous platemail armour and face-concealing helm. People watching the game,or players who've never used her,would assume she's a guy,and Alyx Vance of Half-Life 2 is among the most badass characters in the games,and dressed appropriately for her role in the game; The companion character who's more mobile than Gordon.

However,these examples are few and far between. Yes,the treatment of women needs to improve in games,but the removal of pandering eye candy in games shouldn't be erased. It can still exist. Just in MUCH smaller dosages,as to avoid being the norm.

 

[Farseer Lolotea]

That's too mature an argument geared at immature minds.**

I'm sure every little XBL snot isn't intentionally a bigot. But intent isn't magic.

Yes,the treatment of women needs to improve in games,but the removal of pandering eye candy in games shouldn't be erased. It can still exist. Just in MUCH smaller dosages,as to avoid being the norm.

Hell...if the fanservice were more equal-opportunity, I don't think I'd care.

Of course, there are always a certain contingent of fans who freak out whenever a male character actually is designed to look seductive.

 

[DarkRyter]

I think I understand your point completely.

Men need to start looking sexier in video games.

 

[Farseer Lolotea]

I think I understand your point completely.

Men need to start looking sexier in video games.

That would mean the designers would have to start ignoring the little group of fans who, whenever they see something [http://oi55.tinypic.com/xe0w94.jpg] like [http://oi41.tinypic.com/155th4w.jpg] these [http://oi52.tinypic.com/k50foz.jpg], start going off about how "gay" it is.

Of course, that word choice is quite telling: it's almost as if those fans are so used to fanservice being strictly for guys that they actually can't conceive of it being otherwise.

 

[soulonfire]

I don't have an issue with how women are portrayed in games, it's a game after all, nothing real. But i find it's more the attitude towards female gamers that is the problem, like we aren't supposed to be any good at them...and i'm not saying all guys have that attitude but i definitely know a few that do :/

 

[Dogstile]

As my husband would put it: men the fanboys want to be, women the fanboys want to do.

I was going to agree, then I remembered gears and remembered a montage of Marcus being angry. Oh man, anyone who wants to be a guy who sounds no different when being angry about loss to being angry because he has to walk around an obstacle is someone i'm worried about

OT:

I would say to her to just avoid the sexualised games. The sex thing is prevalent in any industry so avoiding it seems to be the way to go. And no people, i'm not arguing that it's there and its not changing so we shouldn't try, but I am saying their are alternatives.

Also, as a final point, that ass shot made me laugh out loud with how ridiculous it is. Oh Bioware, if I hadn't seen the artwork of neverwinter nights, I would be complaining that you had fallen

 

[spartan773]

I say hell yes because for every few scantily-clad female, there's a couple more reasonable ones in reasonable clothes.