Poll: Videogames and Women

[zehydra]

"treat their female characters like...pieces of meat to be drooled over. Is this really the image we should be presenting to the world? The press is quick to label games as juvenile adolescent male fantasies and our response is to EMBRACE this criticism? What the hell?"

Who are you talking to, the gamer community? or the GAME DEVELOPER community?

To be honest, I am quite tired of the whole "gamer image" thing. If someone judges me for playing video games because of they think video games are inherently sexist, then that's their problem, not mine.

I've learned long ago to disregard what the every-day stranger thinks of you.

 

[zehydra]

I know that nobody wants to hear this coming from me, considering I'm a loudmouth non-fan of first person shooters. But first person shooter fans, way to throw your image in the gutter with things like this. Hearing about things like that almost make me feel ashamed to be a gamer. And certainly don't make me want to try a first person shooter more.

You shouldn't feel "proud" to be a gamer either. Gaming as a hobby warrants neither shame nor pride.

 

[Iron Lightning]

[I would agree with you that the insults in multiplayer games do mostly attack the victim for being feminine (not necessarily female, mind you.) However, we must realize that competitive multiplayer games are a masculine (again, not necessarily male) enterprise and therefore the best insult is one that derogates the victim for apparently exhibiting feminine qualities (e.g. "fag," "*****," "cocksucker," etc.) Some idiots attribute femininity to all women and therefore choose to call them out for this perceived failing. These same idiots will oftentimes do the same thing to men also automatically because of their shallow need to exert alpha status.

I suppose my main point is that it's mostly immature little snots who automatically fuck with women for being women in order to exert their masculinity and this is not a pervasive trend of inherent misogyny.

Well, here's the thing: Equating femininity (whatever the heck that means) with weakness, and needing to "exert" one's masculinity? That seems pretty sexist in its own right.

The form of feminine that I'm using here is defined by the World English Dictionary as: "possessing qualities or characteristics considered typical of or appropriate to a woman" as in the stereotypical version of a woman that you might find in Metroid: Other M or Princess Peach. Now, of course, being a woman does not automatically make you a feminine creature but idiots who are incapable of thinking of people not as blunt stereotypes would consider it impossible that a woman not be feminine. The drive to compete and competitive multiplayer are masculine things. Thus people will revel any form of femininity that arises in those situations. If you were playing a rousing game of Halo and someone started complaining because they got killed in a fair fight would you not be annoyed? The aforementioned idiots are sexist in that they view women as inherently, totally feminine.

I was a bit wrong to say that the punkets are not sexist. However, we must keep in mind that the punkets are a vocal minority and are idiots, thus making them not worthy of our attention.

In fact, I'd hazard that most of the men that you've met online have not been sexist wankers towards you.

No, but I'm also aware that I've been at least reasonably lucky in that regard.

I'm not certain that you are so lucky. Obviously those women who share your status of not being routinely harassed would not be very vocal in proclaiming such. With that in mind, consider the possibility that a vocal minority of rightly outraged women have made their plight seem much more commonplace than it actual is.

The comic is funny, by the way.

I'm glad that you have good taste in webcomics

 

[Farseer Lolotea]

The drive to compete and competitive multiplayer are masculine things. Thus people will revel any form of femininity that arises in those situations.

Amusingly enough, some of the most eager PvPers in my guild are rather "girlie." But I digress.

If you were playing a rousing game of Halo and someone started complaining because they got killed in a fair fight would you not be annoyed?

If I was the one who'd killed them, I'd probably say "you lost; get over it" and leave it at that.

I'd be a lot more annoyed at someone who tried to tip the scales in their direction, lost, and whined about it. Or who was on a team, fucked up, and blamed everyone else.

I'm not certain that you are so lucky. Obviously those women who share your status of not being routinely harassed would not be very vocal in proclaiming such. With that in mind, consider the possibility that a vocal minority of rightly outraged women have made their plight seem much more commonplace than it actual is.

Could be, but it seems just a bit too widespread for that to be entirely the case.

 

[LilithSlave]

ugly chicks think its a marginalization of women

So anyone who isn't cool with the double standard of objectification and demeaning representation of women in video games is just "ugly" by your objective standard of beauty?

Yeah, that's just ridiculous. Heck, you're exemplifying the problem right here by marginalizing an opinion as only being held by "ugly" people, and "ugly people" in your eyes as having invalid opinions.

 

[Farseer Lolotea]

Yeah, that's just ridiculous. Heck, you're exemplifying the problem right here by marginalizing an opinion as only being held by "ugly" people, and "ugly people" in your eyes as having invalid opinions.

Don't forget that that's also the same person who claimed that attractive women are automatically "narcissists." Not to mention that any guy who thinks it's marginalization must be "insecure" and not entirely "normal."

 

[The Unworthy Gentleman]

This is about "men liking women," you say? Then why, if a woman complains about it, does the first line of defense always seem to be to start flinging insults?

I don't know what you're driving at here, it doesn't matter who complains about it, it's a stupid complaint regardless of gender.

So...it's "sexist" to criticize the portrayal of female characters, but not to reduce them to tits and ass. How do you even figure?

No, it's sexist for people to say that women can't be displayed sexually in games. It's not necessarily sexist to reduce a character to just physical form, the issue there is just shit game design.

Shouting down criticism is a pretty rotten attitude in its own right. Just saying.

The issue with gamers attitudes needs to be dealt with elsewhere, games can't solve that, nor can forum discussion.

 

[Farseer Lolotea]

I don't know what you're driving at here, it doesn't matter who complains about it, it's a stupid complaint regardless of gender.

Case in point: rather than even trying to defend your own position, you just rail at the idea that anyone doesn't share it.

What I meant, by the way, was exactly what I said: if a woman says anything unfavorable about the portrayal of female characters, it's almost inevitable that someone's going to immediately resort to schoolyard name-calling.

No, it's sexist for people to say that women can't be displayed sexually in games. It's not necessarily sexist to reduce a character to just physical form, the issue there is just shit game design.

No one's claimed that "women can't be displayed sexually in games." That's what's known as a strawman.

However, it is sexist??and, yes, shit game design as well??for only women to be displayed thusly, and for it to be so much less common for female characters to be portrayed otherwise.

The issue with gamers attitudes needs to be dealt with elsewhere, games can't solve that, nor can forum discussion.

Or is it just that you'd simply rather not hear about it, lest you start having to consider if your own attitude [http://www.doctornerdlove.com/2011/11/nerds-and-male-privilege/all/1/] isn't part of the problem [http://www.escapistmagazine.com/videos/view/the-big-picture/4719-Gender-Games]?

 

[Vegosiux]

While I usually claim that reading into things can be fun, some types of reading into things does give me a migraine. However, let me put in my 0.02?.

"The Chick" is a fiction archetype older than steam at least. And we also know that sex sells, we have centuries of our society's development to blame for that. Now, I'm not going into whether or not it's sexist, fiction is fiction, and my problem with it isn't sexism, it's originality or lack thereof. I'm pretty opposed to clichéd set-ups in the first place, yes, so I usually have a problem with "the chick" because frankly, it's unoriginal, I've seen it a million times and it's a waste of my time and hardware to have a female character in my games that's only there for the boobage. (Now, in case of ME2 with Miranda, at least she has some character depth going for her)

The main problem, however, is that in this age where fiction related entertainment surrounds us, it skews our perception of reality.

Also, don't get me started on advertising, please.

 

[michiehoward]

Games are make believe, and some gamers are little angsty "I hate my mom" brats, who take it out on the closest female, or just rude. Your sister will need thicker skin in the real world never mind the gaming world.

 

[Aurora Firestorm]

You should clearly introduce this woman to Metroid, Mass Effect 2, and Ocarina of Time. There are definitely games where the women aren't bimbos clad in strategically placed ribbons, even though said games are often hard to find.

I'm going to put you on the spot here, just because you're the latest in the thread to suggest Mass Effect 2.
In Mass Effect, we have:
Commander ShepHERd: Palette swap from a male. She's a decent female character because her sex is utterly irrelevant, which definitely works. She's also dressed like a gorram tank.
Miranda: Yes she's massively competent and a pretty decent character. She's also eye-candy made flesh, with a ridiculous form fitting outfit and absolutely gratuitous ass shots.
Tali: Young naive girl who idolises Shepherd for all the times he's rescued her. Has a romance that's laden with creepy undertones. Risks her health and her life just to have sex with Shepherd. That takes submissive to a new level.
Jack: Practically naked, emotionally scarred psycopath who Shepherd cures with his dick.
Samara: Ancient and powerful police officer. Inexplicable has a foot of cleavage.

Mass Effect has some good points with its characterisation, but at the same time its female characters are pure fan-service. Don't even get me started on the weird bisexual-but-not-really-but-totally-hot-lesbian Asari.

BioWare can be pretty progressive at times, but they shot themselves in the foot massively with ME2.

Okay, I'll admit I never played Mass Effect 1. So all I know is FemShep, and she's about the most badass thing ever. I don't really even consider Male Shepard to exist. I also think it's awesome when women dress like a "gorram tank," because it's the exact opposite of what you'd expect from the video game industry -- and on the Normandy, she's wearing perfectly sensible clothes. Samus Aran is dressed far more like a tank than Shepard ever was, and no one is dissing her for it.

There really isn't anything wrong with submissive women; I think Miranda is an incredibly badass woman whose costume doesn't take away from her sheer assertiveness; I can't explan away Samara and Jack, but in the end, you could do a lot, lot worse than Mass Effect. I know it's not really an excuse to say "but look how bad it can get elsewhere," but really, when Ivy from Soul Calibur exists, I'm not sure I can complain too much about lesbian Asari. And seriously, the first thing Miranda does is coldly shoots a guy in the face -- can you really say she's T&A eye candy when she's swinging around a personality like that? Ivy is eye candy made flesh, as are the Dead or Alive girls. Miranda is actually fully clothed, whether or not it's a form-fitting suit.

 

[Wilko316]

I took into consideration women who are gamers aswell as women within video games, honestly I think women who play video games alot haven't been portrayed in the kindest light but the gamer ladies I've met are mostly very different to stereotypical views, so I guess it's just who you personally know.
The portrayal of women within video games is a swamp of shite that is in serious need of getting rid of, I reckon if they based more characters off of real women, women the writers/developers, whoever, actually know instead of just taking the typical fantasy woman creation then they might do some justice to this view of females in video games.

 

[TheDooD]

oh man this thread AGAIN...

Women can be smart, sexy, witty, badass, dangerous, heartwarming and pretty much whatever the creators of the game wanted them to be instead of shallow token notions of what other people think woman should be in games they aren't making.

 

[BloatedGuppy]

I wanted to hedge my bets and select "room for improvement", but it really is a travesty. And I'm a guy!

 

[Elvis Starburst]

I wish females gamers didn't get the shit that they do. I think it's unfair that they get messages like the FUoS posts, cause that's flat out unbelievable. But then again, I'm not surprised. The 360/PS3 online community is full of kids, pre-mature teenagers and fratboys who refer to their women as "their *****".

I think they all need to have a kick to the nuts and told "say that again and the other is heading right for your face". If I could teleport to every single gamertag/PSN account involved with this absolutely terrible attitude, I'd do exactly that. Teleport, give them a firm punch to the face, and make it known I'll come back if they do it again. Bastards the whole lots of them >.> This is why I don't play multiplayer, or care for consoles anymore. And I'm a guy

 

[CaptainKarma]

oh man this thread AGAIN...

Women can be smart, sexy, witty, badass, dangerous, heartwarming and pretty much whatever the creators of the game wanted them to be instead of shallow token notions of what other people think woman should be in games they aren't making.

So because I'm not making videogames I can't criticise videogames? How does that make sense?

 

[TheDooD]

oh man this thread AGAIN...

Women can be smart, sexy, witty, badass, dangerous, heartwarming and pretty much whatever the creators of the game wanted them to be instead of shallow token notions of what other people think woman should be in games they aren't making.

So because I'm not making videogames I can't criticise videogames? How does that make sense?

You're pretty much bitching about what somebody had in mind for their own character concepts is somehow wrong because it portrayed in a way you don't like. Girls can be whatever they want to be so with a female character concepts reflect that is somehow wrong. It's wrong for a girl to be diehard, devoted fan. Or loves to show off her body by wearing tight or revealing clothes. They can be shy and meek. Or prove that they're the baddest ************ in the room. It's a concept that reflects the randomness in real personality traits. Not everybody in the world is well rounded so why in the hell should video game characters. Overall I'm pretty much trying to say is if you don't like something alright yet sometimes it's just better to let some shit slide and enjoy the damn game.

 

[BloatedGuppy]

You're pretty much bitching about what somebody had in mind for their own character concepts is somehow wrong because it portrayed in a way you don't like. Girls can be whatever they want to be so with a female character concepts reflect that is somehow wrong. It's wrong for a girl to be diehard, devoted fan. Or loves to show off her body by wearing tight or revealing clothes. They can be shy and meek. Or prove that they're the baddest ************ in the room. It's a concept that reflects the randomness in real personality traits. Not everybody in the world is well rounded so why in the hell should video game characters. Overall I'm pretty much trying to say is if you don't like something alright yet sometimes it's just better to let some shit slide and enjoy the damn game.

Ehhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh...

There is nothing wrong with critical analysis of a medium, attacking poor or shallow characterization, or calling out crass sexualization. The moment you present your art for public consumption, you invite criticism of that art.

Pretending that video game characterizations are just representing all the different colors of the rainbow of feminine personality traits is pretty ridiculous on the face, and you should probably stop trying. You can admit that games, as a medium, tend to have an extraordinarily juvenile attitude towards women and sexuality and STILL LIKE GAMES. Being honest about where our hobby falls down is the first step on the road to making it better.

 

[JSDodd]

I agree with you in general but i think mass effect was an awful example to use. All of the main female characters have plot arcs as long as their male counterparts, some even have longer ones.

 

[Creator002]

and banning women from Battlefeild 3 launch party? why the fuck did they do that?

Here's a quote:

"Nothing ruins a good LAN party like uncomfortable guests or lots of tension, both of which can result from mixing immature, misogynistic male-gamers with female counterparts. Though we?ve done our best to avoid these situations in years past, we?ve certainly had our share of problems. As a result, we no longer allow women to attend this event.?

No, really.

but....but....

BUT THATS BULLSHIT!!!!!!!

I just *gasp*..ok...ok calm down

you know what? they should have made it female only..yes, made it female only for this very reason and make that absolutly clear, that would have shown them ..

I was thinking the same thing when I read that quote. At least they recognised the immaturity of the attendees, but they shouldn't have rewarded them with the LAN party. It's almost like "you want to be immature and misogynistic? Fine. No women, but you can still have your party." isn't that the best of both worlds for a misogynist?

Back on topic, I don't think there's anything too wrong with how women are treated in games, it's the reflection of that into the real world. If people treat real women as sex objects, that's what's wrong.
I hope I don't come off as stupid or whatever, but if a 12-15 year old thinks women are sex objects and nothing more, it'll harm him (or maybe just turn against him) later in life. No woman (I hope) wants to be treated as a sex object, so how many women do you think he'll get lucky with without paying for it.
Sure, this may lead to rape, but you can't stop that from happening, but now we're heading into "games make rapists and murderers" territory. Actually, there's another point, if we accept that games alter perception of women, should we accept they alter our perception on the morality of murder and rape?

Ah... I think I missed the point of the whole topic. Maybe I should stop.