Poll: was israel right for Attacking Gaza

[Zombie_Fish]

So, you have made a very controversial statement there, with no evidence to back it up and have just said that it 'was justified'. Not a very good argument there. Also -- as others have said -- the fact that you're from Israel questions the reliability of this statement and how bias it is.

As for my opinion: No it was not justified. Being a pacifist, I almost never find an attack on another country justifiable, but the attacks on Gaza were on too large a scale to be justified; same with what Palestine did to Israel before hand.

Spoiler: And now to don the flame shield

 

[Inco]

I suggest you stop with these threads, or otherwise you get yourself banned by the mods. If your just here to troll, go ahead. Good-bye to you if thats the case.

 

[nyaman]

Okay, I am going to ignore arguing whether it was right or wrong, because changing people's mind on the internet, especially when it concerns Jewish people, is essentially useless. However, people need to stop claiming that the land is still the Palestinian's. If you buy a house, then 60 years later the family come back and ask for the house back you don't let them. If they have lived there for 2000 years, it is still now your house. Yes they did historically own it, but that doesn't make it theirs now. Israel was purchased, and is now the home for many people. The people wanting "their" land back have never lived in it, and are simply trying to get something that doesn't belong to them. Please stop.

 

[Tweak]

I'm happy at least some people still have common sense. (j-e-f-f-e-r-s and nyaman)

 

[Specter_]

I do not believe the extreme way in which they forced their ways into gaza was justified. However the palestinians have been shelling isreali towns with mortars on a daily basis. Do you think that is justified? If you live in seattle, and your canadian neighbours started shelling you daily, i doubt the US would have waited as long as isreal did to retaliate

I don't think this compares very well.
More like "If you live in Seattle, the US government has annexed Canada and moved every Canadian to Vancouver or Montreal while occupying everything else and your canadian neighbours started shelling you daily, i doubt the US would have waited as long as isreal did to retaliate"

Ahhh details ;-) The fact still is that while a lot of things they did were inexcusable, you have to look at some of the other factors from the Isreali point of view.

But the point of view is the problem here.

A simplified comparison could be the jewish ghettos during WW2:
People were kicked out of their homes, moved to desolate places with almost no means to supply themselves with basic needs like food and medicine and a perverted control-system by the police/army.
The only difference in this simplification is the fact that those who revolted in Ghaza are considered terrorists and those who revolted in the ghettos are considered heroes (they were, quite ironically, considered terrorists by the occupants as well).

Which brings me back to the point of view: two similar settings, but depending on your point of view, two different perspectives.

Spoiler: Disclaimer

I want to make clear that I do not compare the Israeli politics with the holocaust, but I do compare the ghazan situation to the Warsaw ghetto uprising, since I believe that the current israeli government is of fascist nature.

 

[lostclause]

Okay, I am going to ignore arguing whether it was right or wrong, because changing people's mind on the internet, especially when it concerns Jewish people, is essentially useless. However, people need to stop claiming that the land is still the Palestinian's. If you buy a house, then 60 years later the family come back and ask for the house back you don't let them. If they have lived there for 2000 years, it is still now your house. Yes they did historically own it, but that doesn't make it theirs now. Israel was purchased, and is now the home for many people. The people wanting "their" land back have never lived in it, and are simply trying to get something that doesn't belong to them. Please stop.

But the Israel claim is that it was their land before the Palestinians. By your logic it should still be the Palestinians. They didn't pay for the land either (illegal settlements continue to this day, illegal by both Israeli and international law).

 

[nyaman]

Palestinians were moved to a perfectly functional environment. It was able to function on its own, they just didn't run it properly. They were not herded into a community until they were killed. They were not starved and hunted down like animals. I am always upset when this comes up, the holocaust was such a sad exhibit of human nature, and people comparing Israel attempting to survive among an extremely hostile environment to it is a sad, sad occurence.
Though let me make a small comparison, did the Jewish people en masse attempt to reclaim the homes and businesses they lost from the holocaust? Did they attack the new inhabitants until their demands were met, or did they move on? You can believe that the recent attack wasn't well founded, but I find it hard to believe in their plight in general.

 

[nyaman]

Okay, I am going to ignore arguing whether it was right or wrong, because changing people's mind on the internet, especially when it concerns Jewish people, is essentially useless. However, people need to stop claiming that the land is still the Palestinian's. If you buy a house, then 60 years later the family come back and ask for the house back you don't let them. If they have lived there for 2000 years, it is still now your house. Yes they did historically own it, but that doesn't make it theirs now. Israel was purchased, and is now the home for many people. The people wanting "their" land back have never lived in it, and are simply trying to get something that doesn't belong to them. Please stop.

But the Israel claim is that it was their land before the Palestinians. By your logic it should still be the Palestinians. They didn't pay for the land either (illegal settlements continue to this day, illegal by both Israeli and international law).

Okay, so I am not an expert and willing to admit this. If someone knows more I am glad to listen. I am under the impression that Israel was obtained by a mass land purchase afet World War II. Any corrections are welcomed. But working with this, if the same claim to land can be used by both parties, how about we give it to the people who have established their homes and families there, not some invading force?

 

[El Poncho]

Well I think palestine were attacking them with missles for a quite a while so yes I think it was justified. I think Israel were using some sort of gas though that people frowned upon but it's like when one kid keeps poking at you and poking at you until you finaly crack.

 

[nekolux]

But the point of view is the problem here.

A simplified comparison could be the jewish ghettos during WW2:
People were kicked out of their homes, moved to desolate places with almost no means to supply themselves with basic needs like food and medicine and a perverted control-system by the police/army.
The only difference in this simplification is the fact that those who revolted in Ghaza are considered terrorists and those who revolted in the ghettos are considered heroes (they were, quite ironically, considered terrorists by the occupants as well).

Which brings me back to the point of view: two similar settings, but depending on your point of view, two different perspectives.

Spoiler: Disclaimer

I want to make clear that I do not compare the Israeli politics with the holocaust, but I do compare the ghazan situation to the Warsaw ghetto uprising, since I believe that the current isreali government is of fascist nature.

And i agree with you, as i have said before, i do not believe the israelis to be in the right here. I am simply considering the israeli POV. I don't think going so far as to say the israeli government is fascist is fair though. Mistreatment of civilians, violation of human rights maybe. But fascism while containing some similar elements is quite a stretch away. They have, quite a free press and a good human development index.

 

[Fulax]

Okay, I am going to ignore arguing whether it was right or wrong, because changing people's mind on the internet, especially when it concerns Jewish people, is essentially useless. However, people need to stop claiming that the land is still the Palestinian's. If you buy a house, then 60 years later the family come back and ask for the house back you don't let them. If they have lived there for 2000 years, it is still now your house. Yes they did historically own it, but that doesn't make it theirs now. Israel was purchased, and is now the home for many people. The people wanting "their" land back have never lived in it, and are simply trying to get something that doesn't belong to them. Please stop.

If someone forcibly removes you from your land, do you not have the right to take it back?

 

[lostclause]

Palestinians were moved to a perfectly functional environment. It was able to function on its own, they just didn't run it properly. They were not herded into a community until they were killed. They were not starved and hunted down like animals. I am always upset when this comes up, the holocaust was such a sad exhibit of human nature, and people comparing Israel attempting to survive among an extremely hostile environment to it is a sad, sad occurence.
Though let me make a small comparison, did the Jewish people en masse attempt to reclaim the homes and businesses they lost from the holocaust? Did they attack the new inhabitants until their demands were met, or did they move on? You can believe that the recent attack wasn't well founded, but I find it hard to believe in their plight in general.

Please quote, otherwise no-one knows when or to who you're responding to (I'm not sure if it's me or specter).

By 'perfectly functional environment', you must mean other countries right? Palestine ceased to exist, Gaza goes to egypt and West Bank to Jordan. If you understand the Israeli plight then you must understand the need for one's own national identity, something they had been denied for a long time by the ottomans and the British but they had at least been allowed to live in Palestine.
Palestinians suffer from exactly what you describe. They are herded into a small area with huge crowding, basic amenities, waiting until another blow comes from Israel (which it has repeatedly). Food and medical basics are denied entry, even pasta is stopped. And it would be worse if it weren't for the UN, who the Israelis discriminately bombed.

 

[Borrowed Time]

Okay, I am going to ignore arguing whether it was right or wrong, because changing people's mind on the internet, especially when it concerns Jewish people, is essentially useless. However, people need to stop claiming that the land is still the Palestinian's. If you buy a house, then 60 years later the family come back and ask for the house back you don't let them. If they have lived there for 2000 years, it is still now your house. Yes they did historically own it, but that doesn't make it theirs now. Israel was purchased, and is now the home for many people. The people wanting "their" land back have never lived in it, and are simply trying to get something that doesn't belong to them. Please stop.

But the Israel claim is that it was their land before the Palestinians. By your logic it should still be the Palestinians. They didn't pay for the land either (illegal settlements continue to this day, illegal by both Israeli and international law).

Reading and research is good!

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jewish_land_purchase_in_Palestine

$1100 per acre compared to $110 per acre in Iowa. Hrm. Yeah, they didn't pay for anything. Look at the percentages.

52.6% from non-Palestinian landowners
24.6% from Palestinian-Arab landowners
9.4% from Fellahin
[sub]Y. Porath. The Palestinian Arab Movement: From Riots to Rebellion. 1977. p.84[/sub]

Now, this is not me saying they were justified for the attacks. At the same time though, the Palestinians don't have any justification either.

:shrug: If I'd bought land for an outragious sum of money, I would be pretty vehement about defending it too though, hard call.

I live with two Israeli guys, and they've mentioned this. Unfortunately I can't remember the details, but I'm pretty sure that before Israel was actually Israel, a large number of Jewish people actually bought land and moved there.

Yup. A pretty large percentage of it actually.

 

[Doth]

Jews are the destabalizing factor in the area, not the other way around.
So... no?

 

[Fat Hippo]

oh so you think it was justified?
does the fact that you are from israel have anything to do with that?

Personally I think it is disgusting.
The things that israel is doing to the Palestinian people are inhumane. If I had my way, israel would be wiped clean off the surface of the earth.[/quote

You are reported you nazi fuck.

Nazi? That's ridiculous, it doesn't have anything to do with being a Nazi. It wouldn't matter if Israel wasn't inhabited by Jews, he'd still want it gone. Their religion is totally irrelevant, it's their actions that trouble him. It has nothing to do with ethnicity or belief.

 

[lostclause]

Okay, so I am not an expert and willing to admit this. If someone knows more I am glad to listen. I am under the impression that Israel was obtained by a mass land purchase afet World War II. Any corrections are welcomed. But working with this, if the same claim to land can be used by both parties, how about we give it to the people who have established their homes and families there, not some invading force?

Basically, no. They recieved half the land of Palestine from the UN. The Arabs attacked, beleiving this was unjust as the Jews were only a fraction of the population and yet they got half the land, without even asking the Arabs. Israel used this as a justification for taking the whole of Palestine (apart from gaza, WB and EJ). There was basically a war between the Israeli terrorists (Hagannah, who became the IDF, and the Irgun) and the Arab nation's armies, suplimented by Palestinian terrorists. Israel won and to the victor go the spoils.
There were land purchases but these were for small settlements, there was no unified effort to my knowledge.
Established homes and families? These people had been living there for 2000 years, how are they not established? They don't see themselves as invaders, but liberators of their ancestoral homeland and the Jews saw themselves the same way. Each saw the others as invaders. To the arabs the thousands of holocaust victims were an army. To the victims the Arabs were occupiers.

 

[The Infamous Scamola]

Yeah, I'm sure you think you do, you've been pretty much sounding off on how Israel is great in your low content posts for weeks now.

I have to dissagree. I'm not saying that Hamas were right, but the use of white phosphorus on civilians by the Israeli armed forces was appauling and disgusting.