Poll: What's wrong with piracy

[Fishyash]

Nothing tangible, sure. As mentioned in my post, it is nowhere near as big an issue as developers and publishers are making it out to be.

But you're still ascribing damages you can't prove. The industry says "download=lost sale," and that's nonsense, but even if you scale that back, you cannot demonstrate damage. And since pirates tend to buy MORE media, the question is not one of damages, but ethics.

Oh okay I understand your point now.

However it makes me wonder, if that's the case, where are all these figures coming from? Are they merely multiplying the amount of pirated copies by the cost of their product? These companies are coming up with large (maybe not comparatively) sums of money that they say is "lost due to piracy".

Anyways enough of that I get what you mean. What they are losing is potential, and potential is not tangible.

 

[Valiance]

That is some irritating disc DRM on his floppy. He should buy Memorex blank discs. I like how at the end she uses the manual as incentive to buy, when they don't make those anymore.

Yeah, I bought some retail games recently that come with like a 4-page quickstart guide saying "download the rest of the manual on PDF!"

 

[Dexiro]

Because Piracy has the capacity to Kill the Video Game Entertainment Industry.

A rather dramatic statement but it's very true. Piracy at it's current state isn't doing that much harm, it's considerable damage but it's not the end of the world, but should piracy become more accepted and widespread then the game industry is pretty much fucked.

Should piracy approach being 100% accepted then the entire industry would effectively be ran on donations, and if that happens then you can say goodbye to triple-A games. Game development would cease to be an industry as we currently know it and it would be reduced to a collection of part-time indie developers. So technically the industry will never disappear completely, but fuck anyone who thinks reducing the industry to that level is a peachy idea

Basically small amounts of piracy don't really do that much harm but that doesn't make it ok, if we weren't taking efforts to eradicate it then we'd be approaching that 100% piracy rate stupidly quickly.

 

[Something Amyss]

Oh okay I understand your point now.

However it makes me wonder, if that's the case, where are all these figures coming from? Are they merely multiplying the amount of pirated copies by the cost of their product? These companies are coming up with large (maybe not comparatively) sums of money that they say is "lost due to piracy".

Anyways enough of that I get what you mean. What they are losing is potential, and potential is not tangible.

The thing is, I'm not entirely sure about the game industry, but recording industry estimates are exactly that. Most of what I've seen from the MPAA (video industry) as well.

The alleged figures on the Witcher 2, which may be that high, are based on partial numbers and extrapolations that are frankly a little unrealistic and assumptive, but any assessment of damage also comes from the notion that 1 download=1 lost sale.

There's no correlation between piracy and sales, really. there's no guarantee that they lost any sales from piracy, though they probably do lose some. The notion is that if not for piracy, everyone would buy it, and that's just ridiculous. There are no guarantees, especially when it comes to something pirates effectively consider to have no value.

 

[zehydra]

The only reason we can sell games at all, is because we believe that intellectual property has economic value. if we didn't, like many pirates don't, then there would be no place for any kind of entertainment industry at all in our economy. So, with no industry, comes no funding, unless you can convince the government to allocate limited funds towards the games' industry.

Ultimately, if you want to survive in the games' industry, you have to try and do better than your competitors economically. Some people interpret this as greed, and they are right in some sense that some of it IS greed, but it would be wrong to assume that all desire for profit comes from greed, particularly in a capitalist society.

Now, is it morally wrong to pirate games? Depends on whether or not you consider intellectual property to have economic value, since, while piracy is not theft, it is illegal for the same reasons as theft.

In a non-capitalist society it would be a non-issue; there wouldn't be a games industry.

 

[Blood Brain Barrier]

Snip

theft: theft is the illegal taking of another person's property without that person's permission or consent.

Citation: Definition from Wikipedia.

Seeing as a game is Intellectual property, and you are taking it without paying, against the owner's consent, piracy = theft. this is why it's ILLEGAL. even if I'm wrong, it is STILL ILLEGAL. This is why we have to deal with the SOPA bill.

What is the property that is "taken"? The master copy of Skyrim that Bethesda used to make copies to put on discs and sell, is still on Bethesda's computer. Nothing has gone.

Compare that with a copy of Skyrim disappearing from your local game store shelves, and appearing in your local 16 year old's bedroom. That's stealing

 

[SonicKoala]

I'll be using Skyrim as an example.

Copies sold (first two days): 3.2Million = $192,000,000.
Copies pirated: (estimated) 30,000 = $1,800,000
Copies not sold because of the people who didn't buy or hates games: 5.6Billion = $336,000,000,000


If all you're going to fucking worry about is "potential sales loss", then think of the BILLIONS of people don't play games. So what the fuck are you people complaining about?

It should be illegal to NOT buy games, by all the "logic" floating around here.

What a stupid argument - the billions of people who don't play games were never going to buy the game in the first place; they were never, at any point in time, considered a potential sale - buying the game had never even crossed their mind, since they had a total of zero interest in the product to begin with. Pirates, on the other hand, through the simple act of pirating the game, suggest that they have (at the very least) a fleeting interest in the product, hence their characterisation as potential sales. It is absolutely unbelievable how you are bringing up such an irrelevant and meaningless point.

 

[Something Amyss]

At the end of the day, Pirating is stealing, no matter what anyone says.

At the end of the day, ducks are fish, no matter what anyone says.

I'll be using Skyrim as an example.

Copies sold (first two days): 3.2Million = $192,000,000.
Copies pirated: (estimated) 30,000 = $1,800,000
Copies not sold because of the people who didn't buy or hates games: 5.6Billion = $336,000,000,000

OMG. Do you know what this means?

NOT BUYING THE GAME IS STEALING!

Not just pirating it, but by not buying the game at all, you are costing them a sale!

XD

Yeah, I bought some retail games recently that come with like a 4-page quickstart guide saying "download the rest of the manual on PDF!"

Isn't it great when they devalue their own product?

Granted, PDFs have their own place, but still.

Basically small amounts of piracy don't really do that much harm but that doesn't make it ok, if we weren't taking efforts to eradicate it then we'd be approaching that 100% piracy rate stupidly quickly.

LOL no. It would not approach 100% without steps taken to prevent it.

 

[SonicKoala]

Snip

theft: theft is the illegal taking of another person's property without that person's permission or consent.

Citation: Definition from Wikipedia.

Seeing as a game is Intellectual property, and you are taking it without paying, against the owner's consent, piracy = theft. this is why it's ILLEGAL. even if I'm wrong, it is STILL ILLEGAL. This is why we have to deal with the SOPA bill.

What is the property that is "taken"? The master copy of Skyrim that Bethesda used to make copies to put on discs and sell, is still on Bethesda's computer. Nothing has gone.

So, a program's lack of physical tangibility negates its status as a "product" or a piece of property? I don't understand how someone can have that attitude in an age where an overwhelming amount of data and media is exchanged digitally...

 

[FEichinger]

-snip-

It would easily support open source and crowdsourcing projects. In all honesty, that's the approach we need to take, not more power to the triple-A titles and their respective corporations behind them.

 

[Sonic Doctor]

Yer, cos Skyrim and other proper games never have manuals....

Speaking of manuals, since the prices on PSP games are really dropping, I ordered Final Fantasy 1 and 2 from Amazon for $10.91 after I used a 10 dollar credit.

But the point of this is that I was looking at the reviews of FF2 and there is one solitary 1 star review, and this was the beginning of the guy's gripe:

I started the game thinking "Okay, this should be fun!" although i was horribly mistaken. THIS GAME IS HORRIBLE! As soon as I started, i was confused with the lack of instruction. I began to run out into the woods and eventually died since there was no map. Get this: there is a map but you have to read the manual to discover you have to press O and SELECT. Great.... I found that out half way through the game. I learned also most of the information that they "forgot" to tell you is in the manual.

Of course the majority of the comments to him basically were, "God for bid you have to read the manual."

Boy, people have been so spoiled with games in this generation that practically hold your had telling you everything for the first hour or more(if you are lucky that it is that short.)

I miss proper manuals. I was really pissed with 343's two page leaflet in the Halo Anniversary case.

-------------------------------------

Now on topic. I'm really tired of the piracy argument, because people that do it and/or are okay with it, have no legal or moral leg/right to stand on concerning it, but they just won't understand/change to what's right or go away. The problem is that such people are very impressionable to young gamers, and filling their heads with silly fight the machine mentalities that start to produce more and more people that think it is okay to steal because of whatever bogus reason.

 

[Mimssy]

You're stealing a luxury item, not something that could save a life (food or medicine). It's like stealing jewelry.

 

[Blood Brain Barrier]

Snip

theft: theft is the illegal taking of another person's property without that person's permission or consent.

Citation: Definition from Wikipedia.

Seeing as a game is Intellectual property, and you are taking it without paying, against the owner's consent, piracy = theft. this is why it's ILLEGAL. even if I'm wrong, it is STILL ILLEGAL. This is why we have to deal with the SOPA bill.

What is the property that is "taken"? The master copy of Skyrim that Bethesda used to make copies to put on discs and sell, is still on Bethesda's computer. Nothing has gone.

So, a program's lack of physical tangibility negates its status as a "product" or a piece of property? I don't understand how someone can have that attitude in an age where an overwhelming amount of data and media is exchanged digitally...

That's not what I said and if it was, I would disagree with it. There are laws for dealing with intellectual property - copyright law. Theft law is for a different purpose - the securing of property.

 

[AngloDoom]

If you download a game without paying for it, or at least an original copy of the game and use the downloaded game as a backup, then you have taken something without intending to pay.

Yes, a physical copy was not taken, but the intent is clear: getting a hold of something through anonymous, illegal means to avoid having to pay for the said item.

If you intend to play the game, you should purchase it. If you enjoy it enough to purchase it, you should want to give something to the developer. Even if you download the game on release, then pay for the item in six months when the price drops to a level you consider is equal to the games worth, that is much more acceptable in my opinion than just taking it when you would normally pay.

 

[Ympulse]

What about those of us that pirate simply to bypass the asinine DRM nonsense? (Asscreed 2 is a perfect example here) I have my retail copy of Skyrim sitting on my desk, still nice and sealed with the price tag on it. Been playing the pirate copy just so I dont have to deal with Steam or other 'surprise' DRM shenanegians.

There are just as many reasons to pirate as there are to not. All that matters is how much you actually support the Game industry, as opposed to how much you want a game.

 

[Savagezion]

[Funny video]

That is some irritating disc DRM on his floppy. He should buy Memorex blank discs. I like how at the end she uses the manual as incentive to buy, when they don't make those anymore.

Yer, cos Skyrim and other proper games never have manuals....

Yep, Skyrim is awesome in a lot of ways. Rockstar still does too. But overall, manuals are crap nowadays. You're lucky if it isn't a PDF on the website and luckier still if it isn't a PDF on the disc. On consoles, it is mostly a 2-4 page wannabe booklet about how to put the game in the drive and turn the power on. Hell, I have gotten games with just a sheet of paper with a the cover art on one side and playstation instruction diagram on the other.

 

[Dexiro]

-snip-

It would easily support open source and crowdsourcing projects. In all honesty, that's the approach we need to take, not more power to the triple-A titles and their respective corporations behind them.

Yeah but we already have that Of course more of that would be good but those type of projects don't devalue big-budget development completely.

The 2 parts of the industry work side by side rather than in competition with each other and both have different strengths and weaknesses, I'd hate to see either disappear completely.

 

[Blood Brain Barrier]

If you intend to play the game, you should purchase it.

Now this is clearly wrong. What if I haven't enough money? Now i'm not suggesting that I should pirate it (it seems everyone likes to put words in peoples mouths ITT), but just pointing out that determining whether someone "intends" to do something isn't as simple as you make it out to be. If we're going to have a useful discussion, we can't keep making absurd leaps of logic.

 

[Savagezion]

What about those of us that pirate simply to bypass the asinine DRM nonsense? (Asscreed 2 is a perfect example here) I have my retail copy of Skyrim sitting on my desk, still nice and sealed with the price tag on it. Been playing the pirate copy just so I dont have to deal with Steam or other 'surprise' DRM shenanegians.

There are just as many reasons to pirate as there are to not. All that matters is how much you actually support the Game industry, as opposed to how much you want a game.

Well put. Especially, the last sentence. If someone spends $2,000 a year on gaming and pirates 1 game for ANY reason this community would lynch the shit out of them.

 

[Lightnr]

Because Piracy has the capacity to Kill the Video Game Entertainment Industry.

When it comes down to it, the investors in the companies hold the purse strings. If they can't see a viable profit to be made in the venture of 'make video games' simply because a huge chunk of the profit is lost to Theft... then they will just take their large bags of money and go else where. Invest in something that has safer or more reliable returns.

No more money = You won't see games like Modern Warfare 3 or Skyrim.

Although it is very 'gloom and doom'-y.
But it is something that is entirely capable.

it is undoubtable that many major investors have stopped putting money into Design studios and publishing companies simply because they did not feel that a +30-40% loss of profit due to Theft was acceptable.

Just because something (like a business model) exists in one way, doesn't mean that that is the ONLY way it must exist.

Some early game studies had very little expenses but made creative masterpieces that still astound people today. Just because rockstars make rediculous amounts of money doesn't mean that that is the ONLY WAY the music business can exist. Look at plumbers. Most plumbers are lower class (financially) individuals. Yet your pipes don't burst because of their shotty work. And good plumbing is way more vital to life than songs by a particular artist. If the music industry suddenly becomes something that you can be middle class (financially) at best by doing, there will still be music out there. Perhaps it might even be better since artists won't (generally) get PICKED by record labels who have advertising power but will have to sell themselves to a proper audience directly.

Personally I am a software engineer, who is responsible for outstanding products. If I learn that someone steals my product, then so be it, if they have the technical aptitude to do so, and if they really object paying - that's alright with me. What we should be concerned with is NOT punishing piracy, but teaching future generations that if you like something you ought to lend your support - and whats the easiest way of doing that? Buying / donating from the people who make that product. And if there are NO people who would rather pay some REASONABLE amount for your product, then guess what? perhaps your product doesn't need to exist. Look at one of the most powerful tools humanity has ever seen: Wikipedia. Completely free, no adds. Basically allowing whoever whats to to "pirate" it. BUT if we want it to keep existing, we better donate some minuscule amount. And if we cant see far enough ahead to see how good it is for the human race, then we don't deserve it.