The actor was good for Ares, but that fucking mustache. And tbh, despite his merits, he just didn't feel like the god of war. I actually liked the movie but that kept nagging me at the endLostGryphon said:
Poll: Wonder Woman was not a good movie in any way
- Thread starter Epyc Wynn
- Start date
I don't think Bats is fighting for selfish reasons. In the DCEU, he spent twenty years protecting Gotham. They're actions born out of tragic circumstances, but I don't think that makes him selfish.Gethsemani said:
Come to think of it, why does Supes get castrated for killing Zod, but no-one bats an eyebrow when Diana kills Ares or any number of German soldiers?
I saw it. It was... Okay.
I mean, honestly, all these super hero movies are becoming a bit of a blur at this point.
I guess the main selling point is, "Somebody saves the world, and this time, IT'S A WOMAN!!", and, I mean... That's fine, but, I feel we're going a bit overboard here.
I think people are taking Wonder Woman as some symbol of women in general and therefore any attack on the movie is by proxy an attack on the entire female sex.
And that's kinda weird, honestly.
I mean, honestly, all these super hero movies are becoming a bit of a blur at this point.
I guess the main selling point is, "Somebody saves the world, and this time, IT'S A WOMAN!!", and, I mean... That's fine, but, I feel we're going a bit overboard here.
I think people are taking Wonder Woman as some symbol of women in general and therefore any attack on the movie is by proxy an attack on the entire female sex.
And that's kinda weird, honestly.
'Cause Wonder Woman has always killed people. Unlike Supes and Batman she doesn't have a no-kill rule, though she tends to only do it when she has no other option/is fighting an incredibly powerful enemy such as Ares.Hawki said:
Like, Supes snapping Zod's neck (and, hell, demolishing Metropolis) is super disturbing since he's not supposed to kill, and will often go to great lengths not to. Wonder Woman burying 5 feet of steel in a guy? Just another Tuesday for her, honestly.
I would have loved seeing wonder woman, the epitome of the female warrior (in their universe) being absolutely shocked that this Great War was fought with no women in the front line.
I mean, going by her frame of reference and what she has seen all her life, would that not make the most sense to her?
I mean, going by her frame of reference and what she has seen all her life, would that not make the most sense to her?
I haven't seen it yet, so all I can do is speculate. One thought I have is that the movie may defied everyone's low expectations. After all, we're talking about an origin story film about a female superhero, from the guy who just finished making Batman v Superman. Expectations must have been super low, so when the movie turned out to be... alright, critics were probably floored.
Modern Marvel movies are bullshit cookie cutter dregs designed for man-children who think comic books are meaningful pieces of literature instead of the corporate fantasy jerk offs they actually are. The only good ones are Guardians of the Galaxy, and that's because Feige didn't give a shit whether they succeeded or not, so he actually let a director do what they wanted rather than micromanage them until they quit. Hell, Iron Man 3 was the best of all of them because they actually tried something new, and lo and behold that's the one guys haunting their parents' basements shit on because "they ruined meh childhood."Epyc Wynn said:
Iron Man sucks. Thor sucks even more, and Captain America sucks more than all of them combined. All these critics are obviously paid by Disney corporate overlords and therefore there's a massive conspiracy, and everyone else is stupid and dumb for liking these movies I hate because my opinion is objective truth.
Nothing in Man of Steel hints at a "no kill" rule. And why is he being blamed for demolishing Metropolis? It's the kryptonians who invade, it's Zod who declares his intention to kill everyone he can, it's Zod who Supes can barely stand against, it's Zod who's the one intent on destruction, yet Supes is the one who's blamed. And, what, Diana has "no other option" against Ares, yet Supes had a different option with Zod? If anything, Zod is even more powerful than Ares. Not to mention that Diana kills multiple German soldiers as well, whereas Supes kills only a handful of kryptonians.Wrex Brogan said:
I'll admit that it is partly meta, especially in the case of Superman. The Superman of Man of Steel and BvS is a reckless hero that cares little for collateral damage, which is a sharp turn away from the usual portrayal of Superman as a super-conscientious (get it?) hero that goes out of his way to protect lives. More pertinently, BvS plays up Batman as being a violent anti-hero with borderline paranoid delusions and who refuses to listen to reason unless it comes from very specific sources (such as Lois). The problem is not that they kill, it is that the "edgier" takes on them in the DCEU makes them both a whole lot less sympathetic and in the case of Batman makes him seem more like a violent thug then the world's greatest detective.Hawki said:
Wonder Woman stands out in that it re-affirms that while Diana fights and kills, her motives are pure. She's not violently paranoid and she's mindful of the consequences of her actions. She also fights because she believes humanity has a capacity for good, not just out of some sense of paternal protection (as both Superman and Batman do, the latter especially being prone to assume only he knows what's right in the DCEU).
You know I actually wonder if Zod would have been more powerful than Ares. I mean in broader DC cannon I think he is, but here I'm not so sure.Hawki said:
I'm not really inclined to defend BvS, or its titular characters in said film. I can see what they were going for with Bats, and I actually like the idea behind it, to have a jaded Batman become more brutal. How it was executed is another matter though, but as for Supes, I wouldn't go that far in said film, but he suffers from a lack of distinct characterization from Bruce.Gethsemani said:
Taking Man of Steel in isolation though, I don't buy the idea of Supes not caring about collateral damage. Smallville, when he smashes Zod? Yeah, sure, but he's in a state of rage right then, it's the character flaws that make him more interesting (to me) than other incarnations. In Smallville itself, he tells people to get inside, saves who he can, and while he and the other kryptonians are doing collateral damage, he's barely holding his own in the fight. It's less that "Superman is so great, he can beat these guys and do no damage," but more "Superman is strong, but not so strong that he's perfect." His battle with Zod is an example - yes, he does damage, but it's the kryptonians who are invading, it's Zod who's a ravaning beast, and even he can barely hold his own against him.
I agree with your take on Diana, but in the context of MoS, Supes goes through a similar character arc. Not as well executed a character arc, but one nonetheless. He saves people before becoming Superman, and he sides with humanity rather than his own species, even making himself the last kryptonian in said effort. MoS, in isolation, is based on him discovering who he is, and at the end of the film (cue "welcome to the planet" metaphor) is in the position of being dedicated to being a hero and aiding the people of his adopted world.Gethsemani said:
Now, BvS messes that arc up a bit, since Supes basically needs to be guilt tripped into doing heroic actions outside saving Lois. But taking MoS in isolation, I think it does its job well enough. I think Wonder Woman is the overall better film, and part of that is because Diana has a clearer character arc, but if I had to rate the DCEU, MoS easily takes the #2 spot.
I can't comment on broader canon, but based entirely on the movies, I'd rate Zod above Ares. Ares is powerful, but the limit of his destruction is confined to a single airfield, and the fight between him and Diana struck me as about 50/50 until Diana goes into berserker mode after Steve dies. The fight between Supes and Zod though, Zod struck me as mostly having the upperhand. He could have likely broken out of the headlock if he wanted to, and while Supes likely has more raw power, Zod is a trained soldier. In essence, the difference is that Ares is going full out and still fails, while Zod is drained emotionally, kind of gives up, and even then, Supes can barely stand up to him.Gordon_4 said:
'tends to', not an absolute. Plus in the context of the film she was still in the 'This is a black/white, good guy vs. bad guys' mind-set when she is shafting German soldiers. Who, last she'd encountered them, invaded her homeland and killed several Amazonians, so... you know, enemy combatants and all that.Hawki said:
And Superman cops a lot of flak for the destruction of Metropolis simply because... well, he didn't do anything to prevent it. As Gethsmani pointed out, Superman is reckless, not heroic - he just doesn't give a shit. He makes no effort to take the fight away from Metropolis, no effort to limit his collateral damage. If anything, him killing Zod is his own fault, since through sheer bloody-minded recklessness he left himself with no other option. Ares at the very least has the excuse of forcing Diana into a life-or-death conflict (and again, she has the whole 'no no-kill' rule thing from the start), but Zod, and Metropolis, is entirely on Superman. Which, in turn, hardly makes him 'Super'man. A good Ultraman though.
It was something I liked with the BvS marketing at least (never seen the movie so dunno if it even shows up in it) where Superman isn't seen as this heroic figure in universe, but a terrifying demi-god because of the wanton nature of his destruction. Makes the JLA movie marketing fucking weird though. 'He was a beacon of hope' ************ they're still rebuilding! How many died in the skyscraper he plows Zod through? Beacon of hope my ass!
(also I dunno about Ares/Zod - going from the Meta, Ares has an advantage over Zod by being a magical being, which Kryptonians are especially vulnerable to since they have no magical resistance what-so-ever. But in the lens of the DCEU... probably still Ares. That whole 'lightning/telekinesis' thing is pretty effective.)
EDIT: I'm calling Batman a ************ there, not Hawki. Sorry, already been pinged once for that, and with Appeals down I might need to blunty point out when I'm not insulting other users.
Didn't do anything to prevent it? What?Wrex Brogan said:
So, the fact that he flies to the Indian ocean to destroy one terraformer, then flies to Metropolis to destroy the other terraformer, then fights for his life and the life of every human on Earth..."did nothing to prevent it." Right...
Honestly, the whole blaming Supes for "destroying" Metropolis is like blaming the defenders of a city for collateral damage. And don't bring up the "lead Zod away from Metropolis" argument, Zod's goal is to kill everyone he can, he's got no reason to pursue Supes anywhere.
And actually name another option bar killing Zod, what other options does he have? Zod isn't standing down, he's stated his intention to kill as many people as possible, he refuses to relent even when Supes begs him to stop, so at that point, what other option is there long-term wise?
Far fewer people than who would have died if he'd let the kryptonians, his own species, wipe out the human race. Far fewer people if he'd just let Zod go on his rampage because "don't ya know killing is bad?"Wrex Brogan said:
Heck might aswell have the same arguement about any movie that has characters getting plowed through buildings.Hawki said:
...so I'm guessing you're one of the few people who liked the movie?Hawki said:
But what other options did he have? Jeez, just ask me to put more work into this movie than the writers and directors did. He's Superman. Dude doesn't even use lethal force against standard mooks unless he knows they're not sentient creatures. His character is literally all about finding another way to save the day than neck-snapping. That 'destruction of Metropolis and murder of Zod' is even in the movie is a bit of problem from the get go. The best option is to rewrite the entire movie so that that isn't a thing that happens. Maybe have Superman act a little... well, heroic, for one thing. I will say neck-snapping was certainly in character for the 'Superman' movie we got, but then, I've always been disappointed DC didn't take a risk and just make it an Ultraman movie.
Though, if you do what another option... just have Louis, who in this movie is apparently 'Contrived Convinience Woman',
rock up with some Kryptonite she got from... somewhere, which Clark purposely exposes himself to depower both him and Zod.
Or he throws Zod into the Phantom Zone.
Or he just holds Zod really tightly and tells the people who he's trying to laser the get the hell out of there. The Eternity Hug, the ultimate prison for Zod.
Or Louis rocks up with some pink Kryptonite which turns Zod gay, and then he and Superman get married, settle down somewhere and raise goats. Little out of nowhere, I know, but hey, at least it's more Superman than neck-snapping. Hell, taking Zod down non-lethally even lets him come back for BvS, and lord knows Zod would be a far more interesting villain than Doomsday. Would've probably been more interesting too to have Zod kill Superman instead of Doomsday, we all know about the 'Death of Superman' comic already. Take a fucking risk already DC, it's getting embarrassing!
...you'll forgive me if 'far fewer' is still too many for Superman. Ah well, maybe next reboot.
Point still stands, Superman? Generally not supposed to have any killing involved anywhere near him, so when people complain about him killing and entire cities being destroyed in his fights, it's entirely understandable. Wonder Woman? She kills, it's fine, nobody has a problem with that.
Hair & Makeup doesn't count. (By that I mean H&M is not on the same level of recognition or acclaim as Best Director, Best Screenplay, Best Male/Female Lead, Best Editing, Best Score, Best Ensemble Cast... H&M comes last in the Oscars race is what I'm saying.)Laggyteabag said:
https://www.rottentomatoes.com/m/superman_man_of_steel/Wrex Brogan said:
Yep. Really in the minority there...
But yes, I do like the movie. It has its flaws, mainly in its editing and pacing. Gets a stamp of average from me, but overall, net positive.
That isn't an argument. You could apply that argument to any work of fiction ever conceieved. Anything can be rewritten to suit the tastes of a specific audience member. I mean actual options within the context of the situation provided.Wrex Brogan said:
That sounds pretty drab. Reminds me of Superman Returns (and I don't mean that in a good way).Wrex Brogan said:
Perfect characters aren't interesting. Characters that are able to save 100% of the people 100% of the time are rarely interesting either. Even someone like The Doctor, who rarely even uses firearms, can't save everyone, and even spent one of his incarnations fighting a war that culminated in him causing the extinction of two entire species (as far as he knew) because there was no other option. There's something to be said for characters who try to avoid killing at any cost. Having them always succeed however is a sure way to stunt interest.
Okay, sure. So, after saving 7 billion people (and likely every other form of multicellular life on Earth) from extinction, what next?Wrex Brogan said:
He is heroic. The first time we see him in the movie, he's rescuing people from an oil rig. He goes on to willingly give himself up to Zod in the hope of avoiding conflict. After learning that Zod's plan will result in the end of humanity, he fights tooth and nail to save his adopted home, sacrificing the last of his kind to ensure Earth's survival, regardless of the emotional trauma that causes him, that not only does he kill, but he's killed the last member of his race. Instead of taking the easy way out, of throwing in his lot with his own species, he takes the hard route and saves the planet that gave him a home.
That, to me, is heroic.
So, like I said, Superman should save 100% of the people 100% of the time.Wrex Brogan said:
You'll forgive me for not being invested in that. Again, I like characters who aim for that ideal (see the Doctor), but a character who always succeeds and is without flaws isn't an interesting character. Superman's got his work cut out for him already in that he's nearly invincible, but imagine what kind of movie that would be - Superman saves everyone, is never challenged, has no character flaws, and bingo, the movie ends. Thing is, I've seen that kind of movie - it was called Superman Returns. Not a bad movie, but a tedious one.
...a 55% rating? Well, average is accurate at least.Hawki said:
And you'll forgive me for cutting the rest then, because quite frankly we're just dancing around each other. You like the movie? Fantastic, I am (genuinely) glad, even if it's not in my tastes I ain't gonna shit on anyone for liking it. I just found it disappointing - a stock-standard action movie and a terrible Superman movie. Though, as said twice now, a great Ultraman movie. Hell, I'd have loved it - and DC - if they'd taken a risk and made it a Justice Lord series instead of a Justice League. Really subvert expectations, and give them a good counter-point to the Avengers instead of desperately scrabbling after Marvel's footsteps. Ah well, as said, maybe next reboot.
...also because I'm pretty sure this is a Wonder Woman thread and not a Superman thread, and there's only so far we should go off-topic.
