Poll: Would we all be cool with a female Link?

[Dragonbums]

I don't particularly like nintendo's timeline idea, but it's "canon"

The thing is is that Nintendo never really gave a fuck about the whole timeline thing anyway. They said that years ago. The only reason why they did it now is because they still had people whining about them not caring about the timeline, so they just slapped something together.
Any inconsistencies (due to them not caring in the first place) that occur are called alternate timelines.

However I highly doubt Nintendo will really follow that anyway unless they specifically state that such and such game (like Link Between Worlds) was a sequel to a specific installment.

 

[garcian67]

Okay, first of all I'm far more familiar with Zelda lore than you probably think. I'm maybe not quite as invested as you are, but I'm not some outsider looking in, so there's no need to tell me that I'm too ignorant to understand you or that I need to educate myself

In now way did I call you ignorant. I have no idea of your knowledge of the lore, as you have never made an argument, citing examples from the lore, that includes the LoZ universe in a substantive way.

Okay, with that out of the way I'll respond to your arguments

Please respond to the arguments I made in the post where I actually argued, most of what you have quoted as fallacy have been clarifying statements not designed to stand on their own, but act in conjunction with my other post.

Zelda is a the reincarnation of the goddess Hylia. This is the first reason "Zelda can't be a guy".

Only the Zelda in Skyward Sword is specifically stated to be the reincarnation of Hylia, the rest are just descendants who inherent some power through the royal bloodline. I don't think it says anywhere that EVERY Zelda is a reincarnation of the goddess. Not that it even matters since there's no rule saying you can't reincarnate as someone of a differnet gender anyway.

This point is where our disagreement is, apparently. Zelda, in any game (except maybe spirit tracks, never played that one so no clue) is always Hylia. Just as Link always possesses the spirit of the hero, and Ganon/Gannon is Demise's malice given form. This is nigh on indisputable, as laid down, explicitly, in skyward sword. As hinted at (though in different terms given how the series has evolved) in a Link to the past.

The second is the long standing connection between feminine and divine.

What are you even talking about? Gods can be male or female. In some cultures certain genders may be more attributed to divinity than others but what does that matter to the Zelda series or the matter at hand?

This connection between femininity and divinity is explicit in the LoZ universe, which is what I was referring to. At no point did I bring in outside cultures. If you would like to refute the point that femininity and divinity are equated in LoZ, please present evidence.

It seems like you're taking a bunch of old cultural stereotypes and treating them like they're some sort of unbending set of rules for how a fictional story is allowed to work.

Again, at no point have I brought in outside cultures. The only rules a story has are the ones it sets for itself, and it is those rules which I am arguing from.

I would appreciate you doing the same.

The discussion of Link's attributes was not a standalone discussion, it was connected, quite intimately, to the intro discussing duality, and placed as a direct foil to Zelda's characteristics because that's how it is in the series The hero complements the reincarnation of the goddess, they complete each other, bolster the weaknesses of one another, and that is why they succeed.

And please explain how any of what you just said makes it impossible for Link to be female?

None of that does explain it, because what you quoted isn't my argument, merely a clarifying statement. Please read the post where I laid all this out, it contains my reasoning and my evidence. You can dispute either my reasoning or my evidence, but you will need your own reasoning and evidence.

Would you describe Sheik as being timid and weak? Would you describe Tetra as being timid and weak? Zelda has often appeared as strong and independent throughout the series, and I don't think her entire character and personality immediately changes the minute she puts on different clothes. In most of the Zelda games I've played she actively helps Link fight Ganondorf, often by firing arrows at him with Link's bow. Of course none of this has anything to do with the gender of the characters, I just thought it was something to point out.

Sheik is Zelda's power focused into action. I ask you though, why she didn't use this power to prevent Ganon's rise to power? It is because she lacked courage, as explained in link's first talk with Zelda in OoT. Indeed, she has more than enough influence to stop ganon in those early years, as shown by the timeline branch where link succeeds, returns to the past, warns Zelda, and thereby presents Ganon's rise. Zelda didn't do this on her own, because she lacked the courage. She didn't act soon enough and bad things occurred. This, if you are familiar with LoZ lore, is the entire story.

Wisdom or courage alone will not prevent tyranny at the hands of powerful malice. They are both needed. Personified, as they are, in Link and Zelda.

Tetra is a slightly different case. Hylia was dormant in tetra, and thus she wasn't "Zelda". She was the shell and spirit, but not the person, if you will. When she is awakened later, she doesn't display more bold traits than the typical Zelda such as shooting ganon, possibly due to the strength of tetra's own spirit, but more likely because by the time she is awakened it is already time for the serious business of stopping ganon's plan at its end stages. There simply isn't time to wait, watch, and think: the situation requires immediate action and Zelda acts, importantly, only in coordination with the hero, not on her own.


As to your point about Zelda in the final battles, if I recall correctly (and I could be wrong as it has been a rather long time for some of these) she only helps directly in Twilight Princess and Wind Waker, but her assistance doesn't discredit any of the points made, as that is her purpose, to assist the hero in defeating the evil. Just as it is the hero's purpose to assist her.


Please, if you disagree, find examples in the lore that prove your points, find inconsistencies between my reasoning and the themes of the series, don't just quote this post and say "it doesn't explain why fem link can't exist" because it doesn't. That's not the purpose of this post. I explained, at considerable length, why a fem link would strain credulity when viewed through the established canon. Those are the arguments that should be debunked, not these side conversations about confounding factors with little overall bearing on the subject.

In other words, If you think I'm wrong (as you seem to) explain how the series shows this. As that is the entirety of this discussion, what is shown in the series and thus what can be justified.

 

[garcian67]

You do realize that it wasn't up until now that Nintendo even so much as gave a shit about the Zelda timelines right? They even said years ago that they never really cared about which game took place first. However so many people bitched and cried about it to them that they finally slapped something together so people would leave them alone about it.

Nintendo's timeline is very half-assed, but most of it follows the trend of the games it describes. Also, the statement that Nintendo doesn't care about the story isn't an argument, and it doesn't prove anything.

But branching off is still branching off. When something deviates from the norm that means something different happened from the thing it originated from.

The branching occurs following ocarina of time. Well after the cycle has been established. The struggle we commonly refer to as being between Ganon/Gannon, Zelda, and Link is explained in skyward sword to be a never ending cycle between the pure malice of Demise (ganon), the reincarnation of the goddess Hylia (Zelda) and the spirit of man who proved himself a hero (link). Demise himself states that his evil will continue to come until the world is conquered. The spirit of the hero is therefore preserved by the goddesses and appears when evil threatens the world to help hylia fight back the latest incarnation of Demise's malice.

So what would happen if the Goddess reincarnated as a bird? There will obviously still be a Zelda. She will just not be the triforce of wisdom.

The goddess doesn't reincarnate at random. She chose to be reincarnated as a mortal. The first reincarnation was the titular Zelda, it is in skyward sword the human who serves as a vessel for hylia was given this name and it is her story (the Legend of Zelda) which we are discussing here. Hylia is not the triforce of wisdom. The triforce of wisdom is the physical and terrestrial representation of the power of the Goddess Nayru. Hylia and Nayru are separate beings, and Zelda/Hylia is merely the bearer of the triforce of wisdom.




If you are not the reincarnation of the goddess you are not Zelda

Above all else, this statement holds.

If Zelda wasn't the reincarnation of the Goddess, then that simply means she does not hold the triforce of Wisdom. She doesn't stop being "Zelda". Zelda's entire existence does not and should not hinge on a single aspect that she has.

Zelda's entire existence hinges on her being reincarnation of the goddess Hylia. Hylia chose to take mortal form, she chose it to be as Zelda. Hylia and Zelda are no the same being. That being said, you confuse, again, being the reincarnation of Hylia and being the bearer of the triforce of wisdom. While it is likely that have the soul of a god gave Zelda a slight advantage in the wisdom department, these things are not explicitly linked in any way. The triforce of wisdom chose Zelda because she embodied wisdom above the other virtues and possessed it in great amount.

Alternate timelines will affect that because they are alternate timelines. In an alternate timeline it is very possible for the Link, holder of the triforce of courage to be the ruler of Hyrule, and Zelda to not.

Which will automatically put you in the position where we basically have a playable female "link" the only difference is that she is Zelda.
You keep acting like everything is set in stone and nothing can change, but there is far too much wiggle room for that to happen.

I don't even know what to say here. It is so full of Lore inconsistencies and conjecture that I do not know where to begin to correct it.

I shall try:

Your theories on alternate timelines might hold in a different universe, but the way they are used in LoZ is different. The timeline only branches at OoT, and the events that occur after are known. It isn't some massive paradox where events become "timey wimey" and reality is scrambled. It is rather simple cause and effect. As a side point, you wouldn't want Link (by which I mean the hero), the oafish and simple, as a ruler. It is not his role in destiny, it is not in his blood, and not what his traits are groomed for. A king needs much more than courage.

Nothing is set in stone, that much is certain. I am merely trying to present the case that the current canon is aligned fairly strongly against the possibility of a female bearer of the triforce of courage. It is entirely possible Nintendo will announce the game tomorrow that features a female "Link" in which case that would add to the canon, and require quite a bit of revisionism, but, as it stands, that is rather unlikely.


Again, everyone in this thread, please use the Lore and your own reasoning, there is no point in having wars over conjecture when we have all the evidence readily available.

Edit: I apologize for the double Post

 

[Imperioratorex Caprae]

I think despite the vocal douchebags who give the rest of the gaming community a bad name, that if done right a female Link would go over pretty well.
But I'd think it would behoove Nintendo to spotlight Princess Zelda as a protagonist rather than the target of Ganon's ire and rather than substitute Link's gender.
I do feel it would give a different perspective (Sheik anyone?) and a playthrough that would be fun. Just as long as we never ever see a CDi type game ever EVER again. Ye gods did Nintendo drop the ball on that one.

Wow, really? Anyone who disagrees is a douchebag who gives gaming a bad name... Gotta say, you ain't exactly making the gaming community look fantastic yourself there guy.

Try not reading too far beyond the surface before you reply. I didn't name all dissenters as douchebags, merely failed to mention that I was speaking of the vitriolic purists who have little in the way of tact or social grace and harbor slightly (being kind here) sexist viewpoints. Same as the thinly veiled racists who had issues with Idris Elba's portrayal of Heimdall in Thor. Those people. I thought it was easy to figure out when I said douchebag that it was intended to point out the worst of the lot who have the loudest voices and seem to be the one non-gamers point to as "typical gamer nerd".

 

[Dragonbums]

Nintendo's timeline is very half-assed, but most of it follows the trend of the games it describes. Also, the statement that Nintendo doesn't care about the story isn't an argument, and it doesn't prove anything.

Of course it means something. Taking a timeline that the company in question themselves hardly cared about in the first place highlights just how silly it is to base a game's choice of the sex of the the playable character on from lore that Nintendo will probably follow halfway anyway.

The branching occurs following ocarina of time.

And why exactly can the timeline not branch off at any other point in the Zelda series?

The goddess doesn't reincarnate at random. She chose to be reincarnated as a mortal.

And what if the Goddess chose to be reincarnated into something not mortal. That is the question I presented to you.

Zelda's entire existence hinges on her being reincarnation of the goddess Hylia. Hylia chose to take mortal form, she chose it to be as Zelda. Hylia and Zelda are no the same being. That being said, you confuse, again, being the reincarnation of Hylia and being the bearer of the triforce of wisdom. While it is likely that have the soul of a god gave Zelda a slight advantage in the wisdom department, these things are not explicitly linked in any way. The triforce of wisdom chose Zelda because she embodied wisdom above the other virtues and possessed it in great amount.

So you say Hylia and Zelda are two different beings yet Zelda's entire existence rests on whether or not Hylia decides to take a human form. Which would mean that Zelda and Hylia are the same people because if one's entire existence on said universe hinges on whenever Hylia decides to be human would mean that Zelda is simply a vessel and thus not really a person because she is simply a human costume.

And once again, if the triforces decided that Zelda was the embodiment of Wisdom and give her it's powers that would basically imply that you can have an entire Legend of Zelda game where neither Link, Ganon, or Zelda have the triforce pieces. Which would mean Link could very well be female if the devs wanted it to be.

The timeline only branches at OoT, and the events that occur after are known.

And as I've stated before, what the heck is stopping Nintendo from making a game that features another timeline deviation?

As a side point, you wouldn't want Link (by which I mean the hero), the oafish and simple, as a ruler.

You aren't really using your creative juices. If Link was destined to be the ruler of Hyrule, then it would stand to reason that he was taught and raised to become that proper ruler in the same way Zelda was. He wouldn't be a "simpleton" because he would never of had the background to be such a person to begin with.

It is not his role in destiny, it is not in his blood, and not what his traits are groomed for.

Which again is all of your opinion first off, and secondly traits? What traits? Personality traits? Courage? Yeah, a lot of people got courage to spare in Hyrule.

A king needs much more than courage.

A Queen also needs a lot more than wisdom yet that hasn't stopped Zelda from being the ruler of Hyrule.

It is entirely possible Nintendo will announce the game tomorrow that features a female "Link" in which case that would add to the canon, and require quite a bit of revisionism, but, as it stands, that is rather unlikely.

So what exactly is the problem here? All OP asked is if people are fine with a female Link and everyone gets up in arms and start using timeline reasons for why this can't happen just to conclude in the end that nothing is set in stone. The
Which is basically what most of the supporters for female Link have been saying anyway. Nintendo can just slap another "alternate timeline" add female Link and call it a day.
The only downside that will come from that are people mistaking their creative liberties as "political correctness" agendas, people claiming feminazis forced them to do it, or being just plain angry because their white, male, hero is now a girl. (The same people who would be mad if Link was made black, brown, or anything not resembling a white person.)

Again, everyone in this thread, please use the Lore and your own reasoning, there is no point in having wars over conjecture when we have all the evidence readily available.

So basically your telling everyone who supports female Link fans to shush because as far as I'm conerned it is only the opposition that is really using the timeline to a "T" to tell supporters of a female Link that they are wrong and stupid for wanting a female Link in the first place.

 

[Korten12]

Sidenote: Are there other characters to whom this would apply? Where gender/race/sexuality/etc are so insignificant that changing them would leave the overall character unscathed? Off the top of my head: Chell(Portal), Master Chief (Halo) and Kirby (well, Kirby).

Master Chief actually has a full fleshed out personality, backstory, and likes and dislikes. Unlike the others, he can't be changed.

OT: No, I'm against it. Why change Link when you can make a game with Zelda as the main? That would be fair more interesting than just gender swapping Link.

 

[Asita]

Well if you pay attention to the timeline Skyward Sword is where she is stated to be a goddess reincarnated. All alternate timelines branch off of that one. This is stated at the beginning of the timeline before any branching occurs and all branches come from that.

However, that said, what do you guys think reincarnation is? A soul (the thing that makes you, you and me, me) is transferred from one body to a new one. If you are not the reincarnation of the goddess you are not Zelda. That is either true of a character or not. Alternate timelines wont effect that. Your soul is your soul. Without souls, no reincarnation. I don't see what is so hard to grasp about that.

Problem is that you're invoking a premise that is not a given. Each Zelda is a different character with few obvious connections to one another. That Zelda in Skyward Sword is the reincarnation of a goddess does not immediately translate to Zelda in A Link to the Past being a reincarnation of that same goddess unless you can establish that the Zelda of A Link to the Past is the reincarnation of the Zelda in Skyward Sword. The same principle holds true for Link. While this is often implied to some extent, Twilight Princess throws a monkey wrench into the idea by having the Hero of Time's spirit persist in the world through the events of the game (That spirit who teaches you new moves? Strongly implied to be Ocarina of Time Link in game, flat out stated to be so in Hyrule Historia) thereby making a clear break in any hypothetical reincarnation chain, establishing that the reincarnation relation between installments is not a hard and fast rule that must be adhered to.

Even then, the use of such logic to imply that reincarnation is a gender-locked process doesn't actually follow at all, as the process very rarely implies anything of the sort, in fiction or religion. The identification of one of the Zeldas as the incarnation of a goddess adds nothing to the argument; partially due to the longstanding convention of giving deities in fiction a very fluid concept of sex and gender, and partially because that idea in fiction is based off of real life precedent with religion. Loki fathered Narfi and/or Nari, Fenrir, Jörmungandr, and Hel and mothered Sleipnir, and Vishnu had a female avatar in the form of Mohini...to say nothing of the gods of Hinduism merging into dual sexed entities like Ardhanarisvara. By a similar token on the reincarnation front we have the recent musings of the Dalai Lama that his next reincarnation might well be female (and somewhat implying that the reason none of his prior [supposed] reincarnations had been female was because the world wouldn't have accepted them and the Dalai Lama's nature would naturally steer towards the 'most beneficial' form it could). On no front is there actually a solid reason why either Zelda's connection to the goddess or her presumed nature as a reincarnation of a prior life would gender lock future incarnations. What's worse is that even ignoring all of this, an argument focusing on why Zelda "must be gender locked" is ultimately irrelevant to what the argument is actually trying to prove: that Link rather than Zelda is necessarily gender locked, which is an iffy proposition at best even before we see the manifestation of the Hero of Time's spirit as a separate entity in Twilight Princess.

 

[garcian67]

So basically your telling everyone who supports female Link fans to shush because as far as I'm conerned it is only the opposition that is really using the timeline to a "T" to tell supporters of a female Link that they are wrong and stupid for wanting a female Link in the first place.

I don't understand why you insist on seeing derision and anger in my posts. I am in no way being condescending, nor am I denying anyone's right to have an opinion. I myself in my very first post said a female link wouldn't be an unwelcome change, just an odd choice for a long running series.

I have laid out, using strictly in-universe canon, themes, and chronology why a female link would be incongruous with the established LoZ story. In return, people reply with straight conjecture.

Of course it means something. Taking a timeline that the company in question themselves hardly cared about in the first place highlights just how silly it is to base a game's choice of the sex of the the playable character on from lore that Nintendo will probably follow halfway anyway.


And why exactly can the timeline not branch off at any other point in the Zelda series?


And what if the Goddess chose to be reincarnated into something not mortal. That is the question I presented to you.


And once again, if the triforces decided that Zelda was the embodiment of Wisdom and give her it's powers that would basically imply that you can have an entire Legend of Zelda game where neither Link, Ganon, or Zelda have the triforce pieces. Which would mean Link could very well be female if the devs wanted it to be.


And as I've stated before, what the heck is stopping Nintendo from making a game that features another timeline deviation?

None of these statements follow the lore, many of them are "what-if" scenarios which, since what we know about LoZ is only what Nintendo has shown us. It is simply impossible to answer what would follow should one of your statements occur. What would happen if Hylia chose to be reincarnated as something other than a mortal? No idea, because it has never happened. Why can't the timeline branch off at another point? Nothing saying it can't, but it hasn't been shown to.

Your conjecture is, by it's speculative nature, unanswerable. It is impossible to have a discussion about it because there is no precedent with which to draw conclusions. I would appreciate if you would confine your statements to those which have bearing on the subject. Taking all this time to answer repeated posts containing next to no fact supported arguments is entirely counter productive and merely wastes all of our time.

So basically your telling everyone who supports female Link fans to shush because as far as I'm conerned it is only the opposition that is really using the timeline to a "T" to tell supporters of a female Link that they are wrong and stupid for wanting a female Link in the first place.

Again, for clarity: I have said no such thing. Also, there is no "opposition", we are not competing here, we are discussing something over which none of us have any control. Not once have I told "supporters" (again, there are not two sides here, this is creating a false choice and is a logical fallacy) they are wrong, or stupid. The only statements I have made are those strictly from the Lore and further clarifying statements when someone quotes one of my posts and questions the reasoning.


What I have done, at every point in this thread, is attempted to elevate the discussion above conjecture, to a proper discussion comparing fact-supported opinions on their own merits. Instead, we get dragged into side conversations like this, which serve no purpose towards our goal.

Once more I implore everyone to find examples in the source material that support your positions. Simply stating baseless facts back and forth changes nothing, proves nothing, and wastes everyone's time.

 

[Manji187]

Either Zelda/ Sheik or a new female character would be more interesting instead of some sort of Ranma 1/2 shenanigans.

It's shenanigans because the developer would have to go out of his way to explain to players why, in story terms, Link is a girl this time around. Contrived "just roll with it" scenarios are likely to ensue.

 

[Olas]

Okay, first of all I'm far more familiar with Zelda lore than you probably think. I'm maybe not quite as invested as you are, but I'm not some outsider looking in, so there's no need to tell me that I'm too ignorant to understand you or that I need to educate myself

In now way did I call you ignorant. I have no idea of your knowledge of the lore, as you have never made an argument, citing examples from the lore, that includes the LoZ universe in a substantive way.

You told me I should read up on Zelda lore. Your exact words were:

"Please, I implore you, read some LoZ lore, digest it, make your own arguments from the source material."

So excuse me for misinterpreting that as a statement on my knowledge of the series.

Okay, with that out of the way I'll respond to your arguments

Please respond to the arguments I made in the post where I actually argued, most of what you have quoted as fallacy have been clarifying statements not designed to stand on their own, but act in conjunction with my other post.

What arguments? Your gigantic post was more an analysis on themes you believed you had found in the series than any sort of straightforward argument. For some reason you decided to apply gender stereotypes to these themes so as to explain why Zelda and Link had to be female and male respectively.

If you'll recall I already challenged that point, saying it's borderline sexist to imply that only a woman could embody wisdom and only a man could embody courage.

Zelda is a the reincarnation of the goddess Hylia. This is the first reason "Zelda can't be a guy".

Only the Zelda in Skyward Sword is specifically stated to be the reincarnation of Hylia, the rest are just descendants who inherent some power through the royal bloodline. I don't think it says anywhere that EVERY Zelda is a reincarnation of the goddess. Not that it even matters since there's no rule saying you can't reincarnate as someone of a differnet gender anyway.

This point is where our disagreement is, apparently. Zelda, in any game (except maybe spirit tracks, never played that one so no clue) is always Hylia.

According to who? You? That sounds like an assumption you've made?

That assumption also brings up the problem of what happens when Zelda births a daughter, because both mother and daughter should inherit the Hylian power, yet they're alive at the same time. Are they somehow both Hylia?

Anyway, even if this were to be true, I still don't believe it necessitates that Zelda always be female. And even if it DID, that wouldn't necessitate Link being male.

Just as Link always possesses the spirit of the hero, and Ganon/Gannon is Demise's malice given form. This is nigh on indisputable, as laid down, explicitly, in skyward sword.

It seems like there's a difference between being possessed by a spirit, and actually being the literal reincarnation of a goddess, which is what you are claiming every Zelda is.

I fully agree that Link and Ganon possess a spiritual connection to their former incarnations, as evidenced by them having the triforce of courage and power, and I don't believe that Zelda is any different.

The second is the long standing connection between feminine and divine.

What are you even talking about? Gods can be male or female. In some cultures certain genders may be more attributed to divinity than others but what does that matter to the Zelda series or the matter at hand?

This connection between femininity and divinity is explicit in the LoZ universe, which is what I was referring to. At no point did I bring in outside cultures. If you would like to refute the point that femininity and divinity are equated in LoZ, please present evidence.

How can I present evidence that something doesn't exist? I can't prove a negative. That's like trying to disprove God, or bigfoot. You're the one asserting a claim, the burden of proof lies on you. Yes it's true that there are lots of female characters in Zelda who are also divine or connected to divinity, but that doesn't mean that femininity itself is devine.

It seems like you're taking a bunch of old cultural stereotypes and treating them like they're some sort of unbending set of rules for how a fictional story is allowed to work.

Again, at no point have I brought in outside cultures. The only rules a story has are the ones it sets for itself, and it is those rules which I am arguing from.

I would appreciate you doing the same.

I'm not trying to bring anything outside the series into it. I only assumed that you were because you kept claiming that femininity and divinity were closely connected, which is true in some pagan religions and cultures, but not in Zelda as far as I can tell.

Anyway, my point is that you can't take these general conceits and treat them like unbending rules laying out what can or can't happen in a Zelda game. When an archetype becomes worn out from overuse it can sometimes be good to turn it on its head. That's why I think a female Zelda would bring some energy to the series.

Would you describe Sheik as being timid and weak? Would you describe Tetra as being timid and weak? Zelda has often appeared as strong and independent throughout the series, and I don't think her entire character and personality immediately changes the minute she puts on different clothes. In most of the Zelda games I've played she actively helps Link fight Ganondorf, often by firing arrows at him with Link's bow. Of course none of this has anything to do with the gender of the characters, I just thought it was something to point out.

Sheik is Zelda's power focused into action. I ask you though, why she didn't use this power to prevent Ganon's rise to power? It is because she lacked courage, as explained in link's first talk with Zelda in OoT. Indeed, she has more than enough influence to stop ganon in those early years, as shown by the timeline branch where link succeeds, returns to the past, warns Zelda, and thereby presents Ganon's rise. Zelda didn't do this on her own, because she lacked the courage. She didn't act soon enough and bad things occurred. This, if you are familiar with LoZ lore, is the entire story.

I don't think stopping the (arguably) most powerful being in Hyrule is a fair requirement for proving that one has courage. Ganon can only be stopped by the power of the triforce, but he's special. I'm talking about one's general personality, not the magical forces they have locked away inside their hand. Anyone can have courage, Link has the triforce of Courage but that doesn't mean he's the only person in all of Hyrule to have any courage. Zelda has proven in many instances that she can be a bold, daring character
At the very least she isn't always "timid and weak" like you described.

Vice versa there are certainly instances where Link appears cowardly. (see anytime he encounters a redead)

Please, if you disagree, find examples in the lore that prove your points, find inconsistencies between my reasoning and the themes of the series, don't just quote this post and say "it doesn't explain why fem link can't exist" because it doesn't. That's not the purpose of this post. I explained, at considerable length, why a fem link would strain credulity when viewed through the established canon. Those are the arguments that should be debunked, not these side conversations about confounding factors with little overall bearing on the subject.

In other words, If you think I'm wrong (as you seem to) explain how the series shows this. As that is the entirety of this discussion, what is shown in the series and thus what can be justified.

That's what I'm trying to do, however it's difficult when you're so vague and longwinded about what your points actually are. Plus you're asking me to provide evidence and examples when the burden of proof really does lay on you to explain why a female Link can't happen. It's hard to provide evidence of something NOT being true.

Not to mention the fact that you yourself have rarely provided any sort of specific examples to back up your points. I'm still waiting to see the evidence that every single Zelda is the reincarnation of Hylia.

 

[CMDDarkblade]

If I'm not mistaken didn't someone post a poll on this exact same topic last year. I mean I feel this is a clone of that thread with the exact same wording and everything.

 

[Savagezion]

Well if you pay attention to the timeline Skyward Sword is where she is stated to be a goddess reincarnated.

You do realize that it wasn't up until now that Nintendo even so much as gave a shit about the Zelda timelines right? They even said years ago that they never really cared about which game took place first. However so many people bitched and cried about it to them that they finally slapped something together so people would leave them alone about it.

Yeah, clear back on page 5-6 of this thread I stated I think the Timeline is bullshit thrown together to shut fans up. It is pretty obvious. However, at least I could concede that it was official so my personal take on it was invalid. I find it funny that the "pro-femLink" side was using the timeline to defend and support the notion that there is no reason Nintendo can't or shouldn't do it. Now that someone listed a reason why the timeline actually leans towards "Link can't" suddenly the argument is "Well, the timeline is shit anyways". Seriously, go back and read those pages.

This is stated at the beginning of the timeline before any branching occurs and all branches come from that.

But branching off is still branching off. When something deviates from the norm that means something different happened from the thing it originated from. Therefore it doesn't automatically invalidate a female Link at all

However, that said, what do you guys think reincarnation is? A soul (the thing that makes you, you and me, me) is transferred from one body to a new one.

A person reincarnated into another form. That can be anything you can possibly imagine. I can reincarnate into the body of a fox. So what would happen if the Goddess reincarnated as a bird? There will obviously still be a Zelda. She will just not be the triforce of wisdom.

That goes back to a previous argument I made about doing that now makes the characters even more generic than they already are. I couldn't give a shit about the timeline personally as I said before I see it as an excuse rather than lore. If you do this, now there are no more iconic characters in the series. Final Fantasy suffers because of this IMO. Right now Zelda and Links are iconic and that is what is so great about the series to me. Changing them and making them be able to be a bird or a fox makes them generic idle avatars that have a lesser value on what the image attached to the title looks like. When you say Zelda I picture the Zelda in SSBB and her early version on the first game and OoT. Just as I do with Link.

Let me point out that Zelda has always had a similar look as has Link. Link and Zelda both never leave teenager related looks. They each have a unique style. Zelda's style is always suitable to to attend a ball. Link is always suitable for... pretending your in a fairy tale as a young boy in the woods? Probably because that is the story Nintendo (Miyamoto specifically) wanted to tell. His fairy tale of a young boy became a household name and then a legend across most cultures in the globe. Now, because its popular, he must turn him into a girl because why exactly? Now, that is a reason why change for the sake of change is bad. What does this accomplish?

No mission statement that I've caught has said "why they should" but most want to argue over "why they couldn't" except for this one:

The argument you are failing to notice is "Why?" What is gained by doing this? Variety? Hardly. A new perspective? Yeah right, it will still be silent protagonist saves Hyrule and the inept ruling family. Nothing is gained here. Ah, I know, it will break ground in the female protagonist movement. Oh wait, no it won't because it's LoZ one of if not the most famous and top selling franchises of all time. SO the argument remains "Why?" What does it serve?

In and of itself? Not much is gained. Ultimately it boils down to how it affects other aspects of the story being told. Hence why I suggested making a Link/Linika/Lyn/Lina from the Gerudo tribe because that has the potential to change the games' formula in interesting ways both in gameplay and lore[footnote]Part of me even wants to suggest that she might have a companion who's a dead ringer for the classic hero of time as a bit of a bait and switch[/footnote]. Conversely, there could also be a tale where Link is Zelda's bodyguard, confidant and body double in the event that the princess is indisposed or at risk. Again, in and of itself a gender switch is insignificant, but it does open up a few interesting possibilities in the stories that can be told.

Sorry, I hadn't replied Asita but I have thought quite a bit about your reply. This response was a valid list of pros gained but all cons are left off the table. It's not so much a reason why they should gender bend Link but just some positive possibilities. None of which couldn't be used in a similar way to empower Zelda and successfully spin off. However, you have to spin Zelda off so well that little boys will want to play it. Hell, little boy culture is changing thanks to Pokemon and its clonage ironically enough. Link has been who he is for decades he grew up with me. Eventually he stopped aging and I was old enough to have responsibilities that made it hard to keep saving Hyrule with him. He is like an old best friend. Please don't cut off my friends genitals. There is nothing wrong with being a woman but he isn't one. The guy is so manly he can dress like a faery literally and make it look so bad ass. I was promised this wouldn't happen if Anita made that damned video. "The femenist agenda isn't trying to take your video games away"

Check this out: Link is the first of his kind. The Karaoke Village is a village of prophecy legend that works as a sort of "garden of heroes" or vessels for courage. It is usually dormant for generations. Link has always been picked because of his bond with Zelda. However, now introduce a new bad guy and make Chloe crucial for victory. At the start of the game you pick if you want to be male or female. I would be cool with something like that.
Those of us who want link's masculinity (and he does have some) to stay in tact don't have to watch you castrate a character to appease the mass estrogen flaming at the industry right now. I respect that a dad modded Zelda for his little girl. That's what mods do for gaming, Nintendo shouldn't have to bow to what some modder did if they don't want to. Nintendo doesn't even claim to support mods sadly. (I would love to see them innovate a way to mod console games. the Wii-U even has a great controller for some software that sold for like $200 that allowed you to mod all Nintendo approved games - but good luck getting them to approve modding their tent poles. But they don't have to no matter how awesome it would be if they would.} That's why owning a popular IP is great. It's the only perk. You can tell the masses "thanks for the input, but no thanks".

If you are not the reincarnation of the goddess you are not Zelda.

If Zelda wasn't the reincarnation of the Goddess, then that simply means she does not hold the triforce of Wisdom. She doesn't stop being "Zelda". Zelda's entire existence does not and should not hinge on a single aspect that she has.

That is either true of a character or not. Alternate timelines wont effect that.

Alternate timelines will affect that because they are alternate timelines. In an alternate timeline it is very possible for the Link, holder of the triforce of courage to be the ruler of Hyrule, and Zelda to not.

Which will automatically put you in the position where we basically have a playable female "link" the only difference is that she is Zelda.
You keep acting like everything is set in stone and nothing can change, but there is far too much wiggle room for that to happen.

This on top of the fact that Nintendo does whatever the hell they want for the Zelda series anyway. The timeline theory only matters to people who spend far too much time looking into this stuff.

That wiggle room is exactly why Link doesn't need to be a girl. I don't see a reason why you must change Link's gender to add depth here. The story isn't deep, pretty much anything'll do. The game isn't being sexist if it doesn't change Link and to do so would be pointless. Since the story can definitely see depth added and has plenty of available sources to draw upon (How awesome would a Total War: Hyrule be where you play as Zelda and you have Generals like Valkeria Chronicles? Yeah, pretty bad ass is right) Gender bending Link by itself isn't some genious or in depth writing tool and it brings nothing to the table. It is shallow with nothing supporting it. Gender bending is every bit as shallow as those saying the writing in the game already is.

 

[Savagezion]

Well if you pay attention to the timeline Skyward Sword is where she is stated to be a goddess reincarnated. All alternate timelines branch off of that one. This is stated at the beginning of the timeline before any branching occurs and all branches come from that.

However, that said, what do you guys think reincarnation is? A soul (the thing that makes you, you and me, me) is transferred from one body to a new one. If you are not the reincarnation of the goddess you are not Zelda. That is either true of a character or not. Alternate timelines wont effect that. Your soul is your soul. Without souls, no reincarnation. I don't see what is so hard to grasp about that.

Problem is that you're invoking a premise that is not a given. Each Zelda is a different character with few obvious connections to one another. That Zelda in Skyward Sword is the reincarnation of a goddess does not immediately translate to Zelda in A Link to the Past being a reincarnation of that same goddess unless you can establish that the Zelda of A Link to the Past is the reincarnation of the Zelda in Skyward Sword. The same principle holds true for Link. While this is often implied to some extent, Twilight Princess throws a monkey wrench into the idea by having the Hero of Time's spirit persist in the world through the events of the game (That spirit who teaches you new moves? Strongly implied to be Ocarina of Time Link in game, flat out stated to be so in Hyrule Historia) thereby making a clear break in any hypothetical reincarnation chain, establishing that the reincarnation relation between installments is not a hard and fast rule that must be adhered to.

Well, not necessarily if you consider Avatar: The Last Airbender's take on it. Communicating to a past self is actually a strong aspect of reincarnation in Buddhism kind of. An enlightened man/woman will know all of their previous lives - thus know themselves and draw upon the wisdom of a past life. That is not to say that the monkey wrench is now solved but it didn't break it. The problem is that is more of something the Triforce of Wisdom would probably be able to do for you.

That said, the rest all starts breaking back into why they "couldn't" not why they "should".

 

[garcian67]

Okay, first of all I'm far more familiar with Zelda lore than you probably think. I'm maybe not quite as invested as you are, but I'm not some outsider looking in, so there's no need to tell me that I'm too ignorant to understand you or that I need to educate myself

In now way did I call you ignorant. I have no idea of your knowledge of the lore, as you have never made an argument, citing examples from the lore, that includes the LoZ universe in a substantive way.

You told me I should read up on Zelda lore. Your exact words were:

"Please, I implore you, read some LoZ lore, digest it, make your own arguments from the source material."

So excuse me for misinterpreting that as a statement on my knowledge of the series.

I told you to read up on lore because, to that point, you hadn't written any lore supported factual argument. You chose to take it as an offense, rather than me genuinely trying to share my interest and passion for this subject with another person.

Okay, with that out of the way I'll respond to your arguments

Please respond to the arguments I made in the post where I actually argued, most of what you have quoted as fallacy have been clarifying statements not designed to stand on their own, but act in conjunction with my other post.

What arguments? Your gigantic post was more an analysis on themes you believed you had found in the series than any sort of straightforward argument. For some reason you decided to apply gender stereotypes to these themes so as to explain why Zelda and Link had to be female and male respectively.

It certainly makes it rather easy to refute an argument when you dismiss the entire thing offhand. Gender stereotypes were added as small anecdotes at the very end of my post on LoZ lore, they were added in an attempt to make what is a rather long post somewhat more colloquial in nature, so as to make the point more clear.

If you'll recall I already challenged that point, saying it's borderline sexist to imply that only a woman could embody wisdom and only a man could embody courage.

It is sexist to say only certain genders could embody certain things. That statement, taken alone, is sexist by it's very nature. Which is why I make no such claims in isolation. I attempted to explain, strictly using the source material, why the cyclical nature of this history and the themes contained within make a female link a hard twist for the canon to accommodate.

Zelda is a the reincarnation of the goddess Hylia. This is the first reason "Zelda can't be a guy".

Only the Zelda in Skyward Sword is specifically stated to be the reincarnation of Hylia, the rest are just descendants who inherent some power through the royal bloodline. I don't think it says anywhere that EVERY Zelda is a reincarnation of the goddess. Not that it even matters since there's no rule saying you can't reincarnate as someone of a differnet gender anyway.

This point is where our disagreement is, apparently. Zelda, in any game (except maybe spirit tracks, never played that one so no clue) is always Hylia.

According to who? You? That sounds like an assumption you've made?

In skyward sword, it is stated explicitly that this cycle, the goddess, the hero, and the evil, will continue ad infinitum. Unlike many of my points, this has been directly told to us by Nintendo.

That assumption also brings up the problem of what happens when Zelda births a daughter, because both mother and daughter should inherit the Hylian power, yet they're alive at the same time. Are they somehow both Hylia?

No. Hylia only takes on mortal form when she is needed to combat the evil. This is her role in destiny. This, again, is explained, directly in skyward sword. It is told to the audience by Hylia herself.

Anyway, even if this were to be true, I still don't believe it necessitates that Zelda always be female. And even if it DID, that wouldn't necessitate Link being male.

If you refuse to budge on this point, despite any argument to the contrary, we have an impasse and further argument will only lead to frustration on both sides. If this is the case, then let this end. If it is not the case, then state Why you don't see this connection, and I will repeat/rephrase my argument to make the reasons that I believe this to be the case perfectly clear.

Just as Link always possesses the spirit of the hero, and Ganon/Gannon is Demise's malice given form. This is nigh on indisputable, as laid down, explicitly, in skyward sword.

It seems like there's a difference between being possessed by a spirit, and actually being the literal reincarnation of a goddess, which is what you are claiming every Zelda is.

There is a difference. Link, for example, in most adventures does not appear to possess the spirit of the hero for much of his life. He is a simple boy/man until something spurs him to heroism, and he then becomes the hero. In the case of Zelda things operate differently. The hylian royal family has an intimate connection with the goddess, being that the progenitor of the line was the first reincarnation. Hylia does not use every family member as a vessel, though it is likely she acts as a kind of conscience or advisor as hinted at in A Link to the Past. When she takes direct physical form, it is as princess Zelda. It is always as princess Zelda, but that does not make every Zelda hylia, merely all of the Zeldas we have seen.

But why? you ask, are all of the zeldas Hylia?

In three sentences: Hylia is necessary to defeat the evil which threatens the land. Were she to not appear, the hero would fail and the world would be conquered/destroyed/enslaved and so on. This hasn't happened (with the exception of one branch of OoT) and thus every Zelda we have seen is Hylia.

I fully agree that Link and Ganon possess a spiritual connection to their former incarnations, as evidenced by them having the triforce of courage and power, and I don't believe that Zelda is any different.

This is correct. In Link's case, the connection is that it is the Spirit which holds the triforce of courage, and in Ganon's case that he is literally the physical manifestation of powerful evil.

The second is the long standing connection between feminine and divine.

What are you even talking about? Gods can be male or female. In some cultures certain genders may be more attributed to divinity than others but what does that matter to the Zelda series or the matter at hand?
This connection between femininity and divinity is explicit in the LoZ universe, which is what I was referring to. At no point did I bring in outside cultures. If you would like to refute the point that femininity and divinity are equated in LoZ, please present evidence.

How can I present evidence that something doesn't exist? I can't prove a negative. That's like trying to disprove God, or bigfoot. You're the one asserting a claim, the burden of proof lies on you. Yes it's true that there are lots of female characters in Zelda who are also divine or connected to divinity, but that doesn't mean that femininity itself is devine.

Bolded the part that I will emphasize here. While, logically, you are completely correct, correlation does not equate to causation, in the analysis of a story, it is rather rare to be told such a point explicitly. We must then infer based on the evidence available, as I have.

My reasons for believing a strong connection between femininity and divinity in the LoZ universe in order of decreasing strength are as follows:
1)The world was created by three goddesses and no male gods are universally worshipped
2)Zelda, a female, is the reincarnation of a goddess
3)The fairies and great fairies are all female
4)In OoT 5 of the 7 sages, or 4 of 6 not counting Zelda, are female.
5)In Wind Waker 2 out of 3 sages are female (neglecting Makar because makar is a plant without a gender
6)The Gerudo in OoT are lead in Ganon's absence by two witches who act as soothsayers. They were also Ganon's surrogate mothers and helped him hone his sorcery

There are some counter arguments to this, you can point out the several prominent male spirits in twilight princess, or the minor deities of certain tribes in wind waker and OoT being male, but I believe the feminine argument is stronger.

No, this isn't conclusive proof, because conclusive proof doesn't exist. This does provide a solid base of support, in my opinion, for an argument using this as a launching point.

It seems like you're taking a bunch of old cultural stereotypes and treating them like they're some sort of unbending set of rules for how a fictional story is allowed to work.

Again, at no point have I brought in outside cultures. The only rules a story has are the ones it sets for itself, and it is those rules which I am arguing from.

I would appreciate you doing the same.

I'm not trying to bring anything outside the series into it. I only assumed that you were because you kept claiming that femininity and divinity were closely connected, which is true in some pagan religions and cultures, but not in Zelda as far as I can tell.

You began to talk of various cultures on Earth, which is what prompted my comment on outside cultures having no relevance. I hope I have addressed your skepticism regarding my claim between women and the divine.

Anyway, my point is that you can't take these general conceits and treat them like unbending rules laying out what can or can't happen in a Zelda game.

Precisely. I agree absolutely. This is a fantastic point and we should all keep it in mind. As I have said, it is entirely possible Nintendo could announce a fem link tomorrow, which could work if they gave it the canonical support it would need to stand on its own. All I am trying to say is that the current backstory/frontstory for the series has a solid mythos surrounding it which strongly precludes the presence of a female hero.

That isn't to say it is impossible. No one in the series has ever said, talking to the camera, the hero cannot inhabit a female form. It's just that the evidence we have presents a strong case for the hero never inhabiting a female form.

When an archetype becomes worn out from overuse it can sometimes be good to turn it on its head. That's why I think a female Zelda would bring some energy to the series.

I assume you meant a female link here, it's rather easy to type one thing and think another. It would, undoubtedly, bring energy to the series. I worry it might also bring a rather large amount of negative attention, mostly as it could be seen as a P.R. stunt by Nintendo simply trying to drive sales with manufactured controversy, and the community of gamers as a whole seems rather sensitive to gender issues lately.

I admit it could even be a positive change, if used correctly it could add immensely to the series with an entire fresh perspective and reworked mechanics. It could very well be beautiful. That said, Lore wise, it would require either revisions, or some convincing explanation in-game to make such a change fit with the rest of the mythos.

Would you describe Sheik as being timid and weak? Would you describe Tetra as being timid and weak? Zelda has often appeared as strong and independent throughout the series, and I don't think her entire character and personality immediately changes the minute she puts on different clothes. In most of the Zelda games I've played she actively helps Link fight Ganondorf, often by firing arrows at him with Link's bow. Of course none of this has anything to do with the gender of the characters, I just thought it was something to point out.

Sheik is Zelda's power focused into action. I ask you though, why she didn't use this power to prevent Ganon's rise to power? It is because she lacked courage, as explained in link's first talk with Zelda in OoT. Indeed, she has more than enough influence to stop ganon in those early years, as shown by the timeline branch where link succeeds, returns to the past, warns Zelda, and thereby presents Ganon's rise. Zelda didn't do this on her own, because she lacked the courage. She didn't act soon enough and bad things occurred. This, if you are familiar with LoZ lore, is the entire story.

I don't think stopping the (arguably) most powerful being in Hyrule is a fair requirement for proving that one has courage. Ganon can only be stopped by the power of the triforce, but he's special.

That's just the thing though, Zelda did stop ganon by herself. In OoT, after link returns to the past. He warns Zelda about what will happen if ganon is left unchecked. She uses this knowledge to prevent his rise to power and ganon is executed. She didn't do this on her own, without the hero, because she lacked the courage to take such a brash action (ganon was already influential and well-liked at the court). This is a perfect place to include a discussion of Link's reaction at this point as well:

In OoT, when Link first meets Zelda and they are watching the throne room through a window, upon seeing Ganon kneel before the king, Link gets angry (having recognized him from the vision the Deku tree gave him) and attempts to charge him. He is courageous, but not very bright. Zelda, knowing this would not end well, stops him and explains the political situation and why Link needs to leave him be. I don't know if there is a clearer example of these characters acting as a foil to each other and perfectly embodying the virtues of the triforce shards they will later come to possess.

I'm talking about one's general personality, not the magical forces they have locked away inside their hand. Anyone can have courage, Link has the triforce of Courage but that doesn't mean he's the only person in all of Hyrule to have any courage.

Link is most certainly not the only person in hyrule to have courage. There are countless others. What link has over them, however, is that his courage is his defining trait. Link doesn't think things through, he follows blind passion and does things other would consider foolish. The first hero shows this completely, when he ventures, alone, to the monster infested surface to rescue a friend who most people would write off as dead or not worth saving. It is this blind courage that separates the hero from the other characters.

Courage to him isn't finding the strength to do the right thing, it is doing anything and hoping it was right.

Zelda has proven in many instances that she can be a bold, daring character

I wouldn't go that far. What Zelda has shown, through gameplay with the certain boss fights, and in OoT with sheikh, is that when she must act, she will, and she will take a wise action. What she hasn't shown, is the blind courage of the hero. Zelda, as the vessel of a goddess, is blessed with almost prescient wisdom. She mentions seeing ganon destroy the world in her dreams in OoT, yet she still doesn't act until it is too late. This is what separates her and the hero, and why Hylia and the hero need each other.

At the very least she isn't always "timid and weak" like you described.

Of course she isn't always timid (saying she was weak was a comment on her physical nature, not her personality). A character needn't display a trait at all times for it to be an important character trait. As above, when Zelda is forced to action, she acts. When she has the option to wait, however, she bides her time. Even as sheikh, all she was doing was concealing her location from ganon. She didn't awaken the sages or attempt to turn Nabooru into an informant, she waited for the hero.

Vice versa there are certainly instances where Link appears cowardly. (see anytime he encounters a redead)

Link does not appear cowardly in any sequence involving enemies, to my knowledge. Your comment about redheads I assume is directed towards to light flirting that occurs in the series? in which case bashful might be a better word? I am not sure of your meaning here.

That's what I'm trying to do, however it's difficult when you're so vague and longwinded about what your points actually are. Plus you're asking me to provide evidence and examples when the burden of proof really does lay on you to explain why a female Link can't happen.

There is no burden of proof, because we aren't trying to prove anything. It is impossible, with the evidence we have, to say decisively one way or the other what is possible. What I am trying to do is explain that the lore does not currently support a female incarnation and it would require revision should such a change be made.

I have laid out my reasoning. It was in a rather long post, I acknowledge, but the lore itself isn't very straightforward at some points and I wanted to cover my bases. I apologize if it was too hard to follow.

Not to mention the fact that you yourself have rarely provided any sort of specific examples to back up your points. I'm still waiting to see the evidence that every single Zelda is the reincarnation of Hylia.

Unless I have missed places, which is possible, I always mention which game I am referring to when I make a claim. This I have been very careful about. If there is a certain point I made that you would like me to source I would be more than happy to.

I have, in multiple places (including at the very start of this post) explained why every Zelda we have seen is Hylia. I tried to make the logic much clearer in this post. If it is still unclear I will find another way to explain it.

Record for Longest post?

 

[Spearmaster]

Link is a character that has become cannon, you could make a zelda game with a female lead that would be fine, just swap genders and name but keep everything basically the same, Green tunic...the whole bag. Mabey even have link make a cameo as an npc maybe working on the same goals through a separate off-screen arc.

Making "Link" a girl...Kinda like making batman a girl or wonder woman a man...

 

[Dark Knifer]

Zelda would be a very boring playable character wouldn't she? I mean unless her character was completely changed at which point it might as well not be her anymore. Also, it's not really gender swapping if there's no rule saying Link can't or shouldn't be female in the first place.

I don't see how zelda would be more boring then link. Link's a completely blank slate whereas zelda actually says things and does things on her own valition rather then just being railroaded towards it by other characters.

Gameplay wise it's established she can use magic to a much greater extent then link, that in itself could make a game less focused on items but magical ability, which I see great potential in.

I'm a member of said fanbase, and I certainly wouldn't get up in arms. Nor can I see the rest of us. In fact I think it would be met rather positively, if it made a stir at all.

And lastly, I question why you think Nintendo isn't progressive. What exactly is your reasoning behind that belief? Nintendo does have a strong sense of tradition, but they also like to combine old ideas with new ones. Take Kirby Epic Yarn, a classic Nintendo character with a completely new aesthetic and play style. Or even the most recent 3D Zelda, which had a reworked set of combat mechanics. It's not like they don't like to experiment with new ideas, and this would be a relatively harmless one.

In regards to the fanbase comment, I think I am in error as I don't really know the fanbase that well so I made an assumbtion and I apologize.

I've found that nintendo's experiments were only published by nintendo, not developed by them. Kirby's epic yarn was developed by hal labratory, metroid prime was retro studios, pokemon x and y are gamefreak. Whereas first party developed games are only legend of zelda and mario, two franchises I feel have really stagnated in the last few iterations like super mario 3d world. I couldn't judge the latest zelda as I have not played it so you may very well be right about it.

Please note, that's not a huge problem, nintendo want to release polished games only for their first party games but they allow different studios the rights to use various ideas in their franchises, which is a very good thing and much better then a lot of publishers out there that are much more rigid with their ips. So nintendo themselves aren't really pushing the envelope too much recently but their support for other developers with their ips is certainly to be commended.

But in regards to a female link, I feel like a female playable character would be a good thing it's just link is so bland a character that I think a female representation would be pointless with such a blank slate and not add anything to the game. They shouldn't do it just because they can, they should because they want to use it to assist with story and character development and I feel zelda has more potential in that area as she's consistently had more character then link for the longest time now.

Playing as zelda would also promote a very different feel of combat and puzzle solving which I would much appreciate but you could make an argument that you could do this a female link. Which is fair enough, I just don't want zelda to be ignored in the series of games named after her. Link's been playable in so many games, why not zelda as she's been established to be able to handle herself fine.

 

[Olas]

Okay, just to start off I think we've reached an agreement on a lot of things, so I'm only replying to the few points you made that I still take issue with.

Zelda is a the reincarnation of the goddess Hylia. This is the first reason "Zelda can't be a guy".

Only the Zelda in Skyward Sword is specifically stated to be the reincarnation of Hylia, the rest are just descendants who inherent some power through the royal bloodline. I don't think it says anywhere that EVERY Zelda is a reincarnation of the goddess. Not that it even matters since there's no rule saying you can't reincarnate as someone of a differnet gender anyway.

This point is where our disagreement is, apparently. Zelda, in any game (except maybe spirit tracks, never played that one so no clue) is always Hylia.

According to who? You? That sounds like an assumption you've made?

In skyward sword, it is stated explicitly that this cycle, the goddess, the hero, and the evil, will continue ad infinitum. Unlike many of my points, this has been directly told to us by Nintendo.

No it hasn't. Yes, the CYCLE will repeat. The cycle of Ganon rising and Link defeating him with the power of Zelda and the triforce. This doesn't mean that Zelda will be always be a reincarnation of Hylia each time.

I followed your suggestion and actually did some research to confirm this. Here's the wiki page for [a href="http://zeldawiki.org/Hylia"]Hylia[/a]. Notice the part where it says:

"Beginning as a divine entity, she was later, by her own choice, reborn into a mortal form as the first incarnation of Zelda, making her the true ancestor to the Royal Family of Hyrule and explaining the magical powers passed down within their bloodline."

Keywords: first incarnation

If you read the page for [a href="http://zeldawiki.org/Princess_Zelda"]Zelda[/a] it basically says the same thing from Zelda's perspective. The first Zelda in Skyward Sword was the reincarnation of Hylia, every following Zelda was simply inheriting the power through the Hyrulian bloodline.

Never, anywhere, is it stated that each Zelda is herself a reincarnation of Hylia, and it's strongly implied that that isn't the case. If each Zelda is actually Hylia herself, Nintendo hasn't said so to my knowledge.

That assumption also brings up the problem of what happens when Zelda births a daughter, because both mother and daughter should inherit the Hylian power, yet they're alive at the same time. Are they somehow both Hylia?

No. Hylia only takes on mortal form when she is needed to combat the evil. This is her role in destiny. This, again, is explained, directly in skyward sword. It is told to the audience by Hylia herself.

Then why is Zelda's power passed down through her bloodline as stated in the games and every wiki page about her or the royal family?

If it's simply Hylia taking human form why would she always have to be a direct descendent of the first Zelda? Couldn't she just be any random chick, or guy for that matter?

Just as Link always possesses the spirit of the hero, and Ganon/Gannon is Demise's malice given form. This is nigh on indisputable, as laid down, explicitly, in skyward sword.

It seems like there's a difference between being possessed by a spirit, and actually being the literal reincarnation of a goddess, which is what you are claiming every Zelda is.

There is a difference. Link, for example, in most adventures does not appear to possess the spirit of the hero for much of his life. He is a simple boy/man until something spurs him to heroism, and he then becomes the hero. In the case of Zelda things operate differently. The hylian royal family has an intimate connection with the goddess, being that the progenitor of the line was the first reincarnation. Hylia does not use every family member as a vessel, though it is likely she acts as a kind of conscience or advisor as hinted at in A Link to the Past. When she takes direct physical form, it is as princess Zelda. It is always as princess Zelda, but that does not make every Zelda hylia, merely all of the Zeldas we have seen.

But why? you ask, are all of the zeldas Hylia?

In three sentences: Hylia is necessary to defeat the evil which threatens the land. Were she to not appear, the hero would fail and the world would be conquered/destroyed/enslaved and so on. This hasn't happened (with the exception of one branch of OoT) and thus every Zelda we have seen is Hylia.

Please provide evidence of this assertion. I've already provided my counter evidence above.

I don't think stopping the (arguably) most powerful being in Hyrule is a fair requirement for proving that one has courage. Ganon can only be stopped by the power of the triforce, but he's special.

That's just the thing though, Zelda did stop ganon by herself. In OoT, after link returns to the past. He warns Zelda about what will happen if ganon is left unchecked. She uses this knowledge to prevent his rise to power and ganon is executed. She didn't do this on her own, without the hero, because she lacked the courage to take such a brash action (ganon was already influential and well-liked at the court).

You're still missing the point. I'm not talking about her possessing the courage to stop Ganondorf. I'm just talking about courage in general. You were basically describing her as a big pussy who couldn't do anything physical or dangerous on her own. And I think that's untrue in at least several of the games.

Zelda has proven in many instances that she can be a bold, daring character

I wouldn't go that far. What Zelda has shown, through gameplay with the certain boss fights, and in OoT with sheikh, is that when she must act, she will, and she will take a wise action.

You can call it "wise action" if you want. It doesn't change the fact that she often puts herself in dangerous situations that a more fearful person would shrink away from. She may be doing it for a logical reason, but it still requires courage I'd argue.

I also find it weird that you treat "blind courage" like a positive trait over rational courage. The times in Windwaker when Link tries to charge blindly at Ganondorf he nearly dies and only survived by other people coming to his rescue. His disregarding logic seems like a flaw to me. I'd argue that it's his amount of courage, not his lack of reason, that makes him special. Of course this is all very speculative and a bit off topic.

Vice versa there are certainly instances where Link appears cowardly. (see anytime he encounters a redead)

Link does not appear cowardly in any sequence involving enemies, to my knowledge. Your comment about redheads I assume is directed towards to light flirting that occurs in the series? in which case bashful might be a better word? I am not sure of your meaning here.

I said "REDEAD" not "REDHEAD", as in these things:

Which literally paralyze Link with fear long enough to begin humping him like a catholic priest. I'm not trying to call Link a coward, I just want to point out that his courage has limits as well.

Record for Longest post?

Not even close. You must not have been here when Mass Effect 3 came out.

 

[Dragonbums]

That wiggle room is exactly why Link doesn't need to be a girl.

It goes both ways. The wiggle room can also be exactly why Link can be a women if Nintendo so chooses to.

I don't see a reason why you must change Link's gender to add depth here. The story isn't deep, pretty much anything'll do.

Nobody claimed that making Link a women for a game was going to add depth. At most people suggested that it might add interesting gameplay changes such as if said female Link was a Gerudo.

The game isn't being sexist if it doesn't change Link and to do so would be pointless.

And nobody claimed that Link not being a woman was sexist either.

Gender bending Link by itself isn't some genious or in depth writing tool and it brings nothing to the table.

Who is claiming that a female Link will add more depth into the games?

It is shallow with nothing supporting it.

There is nothing really supporting a male Link either aside from being the default gender for 20 years simply due to fan familiarity.

Gender bending is every bit as shallow as those saying the writing in the game already is.

Genderbending is only shallow to you. However for other people it can be a pretty fun and creative outlet. Look how popular the genderbent Adventure Time characters are. They got so popular that they were even thinking about doing an offshoot series. Nobody got their panties in a twist about that.
This is also ignoring the fact that people in other fandoms have no issues with genderbending canon characters themselves. Games however seems to always make a big damn fuss about things like this like a single game featuring a female character as main as opposed to a male one will end the whole damn franchise in ashes.

 

[mechman123]

Links gender has no real impact on what he does or how he does it, so changing him into a woman would had the same affect and would seem to be nothing more than a token gesture. I'd actually rather see a game about zelda more than just see a gender swap game. Have her be the controlled character while link is sidelined, all while preserving the cycle that nintendo has established. Have her have to save him so he can get his things together so they can both save hyrule.