Poll: Would you date a transgendered person?

Da_Vane

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dsh said:
Casual Shinji said:
Da_Vane said:
Kendarik said:
I don't think I could ever look at them and REALLY see any post op as "their new gender". They will always be victims of a mental illness and medical misconduct to me. As such I will treat them with respect and I will be the first to support them in obtaining equal rights and good treatment, but they will never really be their new gender in my mind.
... That's like saying you have decided that they will NEVER be a human being in your mind. You don't have to be dating someone to make this decision - it is common courtesy.
There is a difference between tolerating and accepting.

Tolerance is something you do out of common courtesy. Acceptance is personal act.

I'll tolerate anyone who wishes to change their sex, but that doesn't mean I have to accept the gender they've become.
I'm a little late to this party and I think Casual Shinji already said it best but the unfairness of Da Vane's straw man really irritated me and I feel that attacks like this are one of the primary stumbling blocks to having meaningful dialogue about topics like this. Compared to the attitudes of the general population, Kendarik's comment seems rather progressive to me - a great many people would be happy to deny legal rights to the members of the LGBT community - but gets attacked for what amounts to an alleged thought-crime (thinking transgenderism is a mental illness and preferring not to date a trans person, but supports giving trans people full rights - all discrimination is internal). Even when I skimmed that 'racial dating preferences' poll, there didn't seem to be half this vitriol when people admitted to preferring to date certain races. No one was up in arms to brand those people racists. Everyone has preferences and respecting (the right to have) those is arguably just as important as respecting the rights of people different from us, a point with which Kendrik agrees (again, see Casual Shinji).

EDIT: I was typing 'heads down' and didn't see Da Vane's last reply but I still think that it's persecuting someone for a thought crime. When we hear (usually older) people who say, 'I am/was/raised a racist but I support racial equality' it seems that they get praised for overcoming their internal biases and taking the moral high ground. Yet in this similar case we want to burn them at the stake for being so inconsiderate.

As for those saying that a trans person doesn't need to disclose their history, I thought that relationships are built on trust and respect, and judging from the responses here, transgenderism as a relationship criterion is obviously extremely important for a great many people here, who would view lack of disclosure as a very large breach of trust. Do trans people have an obligation to full disclosure? I'd say no. But I feel that they take full responsibility for whatever fallout occurs from failing to disclose this fact and have no right to feel that they've been betrayed. People need to remember that not everyone shares their ideals and opinions.

OT: As for me, I feel that it would depend on circumstances, but off the cuff, my initial preference would be 'no'. Call me old-fashioned but I would like to have and raise full biological children with my mate - I find the whole process fascinating. If science progressed to the point where this was possible with a post-op trans person then I'd take that into consideration, just like I'd reconsider if I met someone (trans or otherwise) who was so attractive to me that it would overwhelm this default desire to have children.
What gumpf - tolerance and acceptance are one and the same.

The problem of disclosure and trust is a big one, and within the trans community, it is a big issue, and one that comes at some point in any relationship. This is however, an aside to the fact, because we are talking about relationships, and when you are following relationship protocol, it means building up trust. If you are building up enough trust to sleep with someone in a relationship (as opposed to a one-night stand) then presumably you would have built up enough trust to be willing to disclose the past if it was relevant. Arguments about this issue are therefore moot and besides the point.

In terms of general acceptance, and we are talking at casual walking down the street and meeting in a bar level, or the use of public bathrooms level, is the level of acceptance being discussed here. Distinctions between tolerance but refusing to accept are semantical justifications which are irrelevent - they are basically trying to be able to keep the monicker of being considered tolerant, even though their actions are not actually tolerant. It's a special case plea as to why this case a lack of tolerance doesn't count, and that generally, such individuals are tolerant except when it comes to transgenered people. That's like claiming to be non-racist but then hating Americans. That still counts.

You can claim that it is a through crime as much as you like, but there is this fact to consider: Thoughts lead to actions. This topic is discussing thoughts, assuming that they would lead to actions. Everything expressed in this thread can be considered to be an expressed thought relating to a potential action in a given hypothetical situation, should the circumstances arise. This is the entire point of the discussion here.

It is not a strawman to argue about transphobia when people express that they would harm other people under this principle. Likewise, the thought that someone would never accept someone as their chosen gender, can likewise be equated to an appropriate action. If a transgendered individual is stopped from using the public bathroom of their chosen gender, would you support their right to use the bathroom or not? The inferred response is that everyone who has said that they would never accept them as their chosen gender would not do this. Those who have stated that they would support them would do this. What about those people who have stated both of the above? They cannot both support and not support the person in their right to use the bathroom. The two are mutually exclusive. It is not a strawman argument - it's highlighting the illogical response given by those that are pleading special cases to try and get two mutually exclusive cases.

The problem appears to stem from what seems to be a major misunderstanding of what is being asked. The very idea that transgenderism is a mental illness is questionable, but then homosexuality was a mental illness sixty years ago as well. It's outdated thinking, and people that think this way really need a little bit more education. The problem with thinking it is a mental illness is that even well meaning people often end up putting trans people in a "pity" zone for crazies, believing they are all delusional and irrational, when in fact, they are perfectly sane human beings. In fact, by claiming it is a mental illness, it is like deeming these people are less than human - by virtue of the fact that they are not fully rational or logical.

Acceptance of a person's gender identity and transgenderism is little to do with whether or not you will sleep with them. You still have to be attracted to them before that happens. being transgendered is, in this regard, of little more consequence than being blonde. Choosing not to sleep with trans people is like refusing to sleep with redheads. It's a matter of preference. It may sound demeaning to turn something so big into something so meaningless, but when it comes to sex and sexuality, if you are attracted to someone, and you want to sleep with someone, then you will take all these factors into account.

Everyone is inherently bisexual anyway - you can think what you like about your identity, but our psyche just isn't geared that way. A great deal of sex happens in our head, and our sexual preferences changes all the time, so sexual identities are meaningless in little more than a very general sense. The closest we really get is "do we like that person?" Everything else is irrelevent. It's only because of societal pressures that such ambivalence with sexual attitudes is largely unrealised, because there is such a drive to be heteronormative and conformist, or to rebel and be overtly homosexual, when just being a human person like we all are is what happens anyway.
 

Korolev

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No, I wouldn't. Transgendered people are perfectly alright people - I have nothing against them. Having said that, no, I would not. It's a personal choice. I could be friends with them, work with them, talk with them, treat them like I would treat anyone else... but I would not want to have an intimate relationship with them. Sorry, but I wouldn't. Just my choice.
 

Mad World

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No. In my opinion, if you were born a man, you will always be a man. Same for women.
 

Rayne870

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no i would not, the issue isn't who they are or how they look or what gender they formerly were, none of that really matters to me. the issue for me is that they would not be able to bear my children, and the only reason i have to date, or more accurately have my fiance is so that we can one day combine our DNA and make two children.
 

D Moness

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Kendarik said:
D Moness said:
VoEC said:
As a pre-op transgender girl (aka MTF) who just started transitioning and tried to kill herself last year (after which I came out) the answers of some people here quite sadden me.
Yeah kind of the reason i usually avoid these topics (since they pop up once in a while). After a few very fruitless discussions with others a long time ago on this forum I just gave up for my own piece of mind.

I am saddened by the replies that say i support them but do not see them in the gender they identify with ... to me that is not supporting it.
Ah, so you want them to be understanding and supportive of your feelings but they aren't allowed to have feelings themselves. Got it.
where did i say that. I only said if they are ignoring the persons gender they identify with because the dna tells otherwise. That is in MY eyes not supporting that is tolerating.

Where the hell does it say others are not allowed to have feelings. You not make up stuff i am NOT saying.
 

Zeren

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I'm pansexual so to me if it's love I will date anyone regardless of what bits they have.
 

Da_Vane

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Mad World said:
No. In my opinion, if you were born a man, you will always be a man. Same for women.
Ooooh. Ooooh. Ooooh. Can I try and be smart and witty here? :p

Everyone is also born with a complete lack of knowledge too. If your opinion was correct, then everyone would always be clueless and stupid. Instead, it's just a choice that some decide to make.

Yeah, that was me blowing off some steam and cracking wise - but seriously, why are there so many people that are so determined to be set in their ways.

It's not just about denying the opinions of those who don't get it, but the fact that they seem to have deliberately decided that they never want to get it.

Well, I am about to get very crude here, but as I have stated to people before:

"If you want to define people by their genitalia, then that makes all men dicks, and all women c**ts."

I feel very sorry for those that wish to view life in that fashion, but I will warn people - in that case, I am a c**t. Deal with it.
 

Psykoma

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This thread lasted an impressive while, for escapist, before becoming a pissing contest.

As a soon to be post-op transwoman.

Yes, you would find out I am trans, before ever arriving for a date.

Okay if you don't want to date me. I'm firmly of the belief you can't change what you're attracted to.
But if you're not going to date me, don't try to fuck me. Then you're just being an ass.

Yes, that does mean that I have found that the GREAT majority of guys, while they would never date a trans person, would (despite this polls results) leap at the opportunity to have a one night stand with one.

Your 'you'll never actually change your gender' is fine, have that opinion, it's your right, just don't share it with me.
 

Da_Vane

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Kendarik said:
Melanie McGreevey said:
Kendarik said:
Actually if you read the definition they wouldn't fit. The fact that they have to specifically state "except for GR surgery" and they don't have to for the rest shows even the authors were clear that GR fit into the BDD definition, or should have if not for current trends.
OK ya, i am confused as to the meaning of BDD then, i read this "Body dysmorphic disorder (BDD) is a mental problem where people think they look different to how they really look. People are usually said to have BDD if they are extremely critical of their body, even though there may be nothing noticeably wrong with it. If there is something wrong with their body, it is usually so small that a person without BDD would not be unhappy about it at all" as the definition of BDD, and that doesn't exactly apply to trans people.
No, that's not a full definition of Body dysmorphic disorder. However, even your definition DOES apply to trans people if you remove the incorrect assumption on your part that its about a "small" defect they perceive. Looking at the rest f your statement, people without the disorder wouldn't see a person as having been born male and having male parts having anything noticeably wrong.

The Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders defines body dysmorphic disorder as a somatoform disorder marked by a preoccupation with an imagined or trivial defect in appearance that causes clinically significant distress or impairment in social, occupational or other important areas of functioning.

Common symptoms of BDD include:
Obsessive thoughts about (a) perceived appearance defect(s).
Obsessive and compulsive behaviors related to (a) perceived appearance defect(s) (see section below).
Major depressive disorder symptoms.
Delusional thoughts and beliefs related to (a) perceived appearance defect(s).
Social and family withdrawal, social phobia, loneliness and self-imposed social isolation.
Suicidal ideation.
Anxiety; possible panic attacks.
Chronic low self-esteem.
Feeling self-conscious in social environments; thinking that others notice and mock their perceived defect(s).
Strong feelings of shame.
Avoidant personality: avoiding leaving the home, or only leaving the home at certain times, for example, at night.
Dependent personality: dependence on others, such as a partner, friend or family.
Inability to work or an inability to focus at work due to preoccupation with appearance.
Problems initiating and maintaining relationships (both intimate relationships and friendships).
Alcohol and/or drug abuse (often an attempt to self-medicate).
Repetitive behavior (such as constantly (and heavily) applying make-up; regularly checking appearance in mirrors; see section below for more associated behavior).
Seeing slightly varying image of self upon each instance of observing a mirror or reflective surface.
Perfectionism (undergoing cosmetic surgery and behaviors such as excessive moisturizing and exercising with the aim to achieve an ideal body type and reduce anxiety).
Note: any kind of body modification may change one's appearance. There are many types of body modification that do not include surgery/cosmetic surgery. Body modification (or related behavior) may seem compulsive, repetitive, or focused on one or more areas or features that the individual perceives to be defective.

Notice anything resembling the things people experience before gender reassignment surgery?
This just focuses on the physical aspects of transsexuality, but fails to take into to account any of the psycho-social effects of transsexuality. This is because you seem to be classifying it as body dismorphic condition - and using this to justify your point. That is, you are claiming that the symptoms come from the incorrect genitalia. This is actually up for very extensive debate.

The type of transsexuality associated with body dimorphism is know as autogynophilia/autoandrophilia, and is actually a sexual fetish where one is turned on and sexually aroused by fantasies of having the appropriate genitals.

Transsexuals, however, are more commonly desiring the opportunity to live as their chosen gender, and all desired surgery is normally an effort to help them pass as their chosen gender. In this case, while they often suffer the symptoms you have listed under BDD, these are side-effects of gender dysmorphia, rather than part of the condition, and can easily be mitigated by dealing with other life factors in the person's life, which is why many people may not actually suffer from these if they go through the process of transitioning with a very supportive and healthy life and background.

This is the difficulty with classifying this as a mental illness and then quoting it from medical journals and societies. It is however, a physical condition because it comes with drug therapy, and as such is classified to come under psychiatry, since they handle both mental health issues and drugs, even though this is not entirely appropriate for the condition. This creates a gatekeeping process for many - although the experts are not those who have actually experienced transsexuality, and as such, they are being increasingly challenged by newer expertise that has and is improving research all the time.

Right now, you'd be depressed if you discovered that society was willing to let you stop being one gender but adamantly refused to let you be another, keeping you in a sort of middle-range zone until the day you die or commit suicide because some people believed that their perception of who you should be was more important than your own perception of who you should be.
 

GraveeKing

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Eeerm... Isn't that last option just a -little- politcally incorrect?
I mean pansexuals and bisexuals who are open-minded -do- exist you know! It also happened to be the vote I gave it. Perhaps changing it would be in order?


BUT BACK TO THE THREAD.
I think I would, mainly because I've actually met a couple of people who wanted to get a sex change, and one of them actually did! It was a bit akward meeting them after I knew them before. Although that's the only reason I'm even slighlty put off - if I met them after they were post-op I don't see the problem - it's not like you ever met them before or knew them as anyone else! So there's no reason to be confused.


And on the question of whether it's there choice or not (may as well not be the only one to uselessly go slightly off-subject into the great walls of flame right?):
If you've ever been friends with someone transgender you'll know for quite well, that for most who do get the OP, it's not so much a lack of choice in the matter, but a constant feeling that they needed to. I believe someone compared it with the choice to breath, that's not quite correct, if you wanted to be metaphorical it's more or less like you had your own gender removed, but with nothing to compensate put in it's place - it makes you feel empty inside.
I've also heard a lot of men say 'I wouldn't mind being a women for a day' and the such, and as manly and hetrosexual as that is - it doesn't mean you'd want it permenantly, so really people should be more sympathetic to transgenders and not have their standards held so high - the vast majority of them are as nice as anyone else.
 

Casual Shinji

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Da_Vane said:
Mad World said:
No. In my opinion, if you were born a man, you will always be a man. Same for women.
Ooooh. Ooooh. Ooooh. Can I try and be smart and witty here? :p

Everyone is also born with a complete lack of knowledge too. If your opinion was correct, then everyone would always be clueless and stupid. Instead, it's just a choice that some decide to make.

Yeah, that was me blowing off some steam and cracking wise - but seriously, why are there so many people that are so determined to be set in their ways.

It's not just about denying the opinions of those who don't get it, but the fact that they seem to have deliberately decided that they never want to get it.

Well, I am about to get very crude here, but as I have stated to people before:

"If you want to define people by their genitalia, then that makes all men dicks, and all women c**ts."

I feel very sorry for those that wish to view life in that fashion, but I will warn people - in that case, I am a c**t. Deal with it.
If you really think this, why aren't you also getting this pissed off at transexuals; Shouldn't they then also not care about their gender? You know, the very reason they're having a sex change.

From your posts you seem to demand suggest that men and women should not be labeled by their gender, but then get pissed off when other people don't label a transexual by their gender of choice.

So in your words; Only transexuals are allowed to care about their gender and everybody else needs to shut the fuck up.
 

drisky

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BiscuitTrouser said:
No. Im heterosexual. I think transgendered people do something like the operation to make themselves happy. And thats awesome. It really is. They can expect me to accept it. Its their right and their happyness and ill support them 100%. However i cannot ever view that person as their post op gender. Im happy they can feel happy in themselves. I think their rights should be the same rights as anyone else. I think persecution is unacceptable.

However i dont think you can change ones gender. I feel the same way as if i was born convinced i was a dolphin in a humans body, then had surgery to turn my arms into fins. I wouldnt be a dolphin. Id be happier but i wouldnt be a dolphin. The surgery is cosmetic. It changes nothing but looks. And while i appreciate and respect these people i wont view them as female. And as such ill be friends, best friends and bros but i dont think i can date them. I wouldnt feel comfortable.
You really need to make it less obvious that you are getting your opinions from South Park. There is a big difference between transgendered people and someone wanting to be a dolphin, as there actual physical brain tends to be the gender they say they are. You cant be born with a brain incompatible with your body, but you can't be born with a dolphin brain.

Still as far as the subject of dating goes, sexual attraction is physical, and the physical body can't achieve perfect gender transformation, not yet anyway. As long as there is social respect (i.e. proper pronouns and such) not being attracted to what could be considered a physical defect, isn't really an issue of tolerance. Sexual attraction is something you can't change after all. I know you understand that, just stop using the dolphin defense. It's a weak argument.
 

Something Amyss

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Melanie McGreevey said:
Mental illness,and medical misconduct?! are you serious?! Being trans is NOT a mental illness. When it was first classified, and identified it was because people were ignorant, and didn't understand it. Now, that MUCH more research has been done, it has been classified as a physical "illness" (for lack of a better word. As for medical misconduct... not sure how to take this, i mean so a person who has any sort of plastic surgery would be in the same category then. To me, at it's core, can be "cured" with GRS, sooo that doesn't seem like a mental illness.

and for the record, i would date a trans person, if they were a good person and we got along.
It's also worth noting homosexuals used to be widely considered mentally ill.

hazabaza1 said:
Fair enough. It just seemed like a rather obvious assumption to me but I guess this is more something you need to experience to understand.
Yes, it's almost like it's easy to make specious assumptions when it comes to something that doesn't directly affect you.
 

Dethenger

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I want to say yes, but probably not.

I have absolutely no problem with transgendered people at all. I don't really have any qualms with sex changes. I don't have any hang-ups about staying the way you're born if it makes you uncomfortable. As far as I'm concerned, if possible, your body should conform to your personality, not the other way around. It is to me not unlike simply dressing how you want to instead of dressing how others may find it appropriate. I mean, if a woman gets breast implants, I can assume she wanted larger breasts; that reflects a part of her. So if someone goes from MtF or FtM, it says to me that they wanted to be male/ female (depending on the change); that reflects them as a person. No problems with that.

But I don't think I'd date one.
It's stupid of me. I don't really understand it myself, and I'm displeased by that part of me that it won't sit well with; but I know myself well enough to understand it wouldn't rub me the right way. If I never knew, it'd be all gravy; my finding out shouldn't change anything, but I can't help but feel that it would.
 

MartianWarMachine

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Oh, I love these threads. Or I hate them. Or I love to hate them and/or the people in them. There are too many people to quote and/or shout at, so I'll try to go straight to answering the question.

Yes, I would. That is, I would date anyone who can surgically remove me from my laptop, somehow find me attractive, and make it obvious that they want to go out with me. As... interesting as it might be to see a little kid running around with half my DNA in there, I don't really see any reason to create more fleshy bipedal primates for the world.

...I think I've fallen off the topic here, could someone help me climb back on?