Poll: Would you date a transgendered person?

[Jake0fTrades]

Someone who looks like a woman but has the genitals of a man? Yeah, I could go for that.

 

[Da_Vane]

I don't think I could ever look at them and REALLY see any post op as "their new gender". They will always be victims of a mental illness and medical misconduct to me. As such I will treat them with respect and I will be the first to support them in obtaining equal rights and good treatment, but they will never really be their new gender in my mind.

So you don't support them then? This is the very first decision everybody really needs to make when dealing with another human being - the moment you decide they will NEVER be their new gender in your mind, you have undermined their rights. That's like saying you have decided that they will NEVER be a human being in your mind. You don't have to be dating someone to make this decision - it is common courtesy.

You won't know if someone is pre-op or post-op until they tell you or you are close enough to get intimate with them, but you will be able to determine what gender they are and how they should be treated long before that. If your sense of what gender a person is is based on the status of their genitalia, then you are sadly mistaken, because unless you make the habit of wandering naked, this isn't something people normally see.

There are other gender cues, and these gender cues reinforce gender identity. If in doubt, go for the gender cues in the way people are dressed, and other conscious, deliberate choices they are making to reinforce those gender cues. These are simple things that, while they often come across as stereotypical, and trying too hard, are usually done for a reason - just like any other identity cue.

If ANYBODY feels they have the right to decide that someone else will NEVER be something, then perhaps they should be the ones diagnosed with the mental illness. Because they are obviously lacking in the courtesy and empathy required to be a human being, and maybe they should understand and experience what it is like to be treated as if they will NEVER be something that they care about, as much as they desire it. To never be treated as a reasonable person that has the right to share opinions in public on the state of others should suffice in most cases.

I don't think that saying a genetic male will never be a female is in anyway undermining their rights, they have a right to think they are mentally a female and act accordingly and get cosmetic surgery etc. so they look like that but they will still not be female. That doesn't mean they aren't human and it doesn't mean i think they are doing something wrong or even repulsive just that genes are genes and they are male.

Specifically in your last paragraph, saying that you can't say that somebody will never be something unless you are crazy. That makes me think you are deluded, i can say with absolute certainty that you will never ever be a xenomorph

Again I have no issue with transgender people, do what makes you happy, but that doesn't mean that after cosmetic surgery they actually become what they are trying to look like. It's essentially a very extreme fancy dress. If it makes a person happier go ahead, I will still treat you like a human being and you have all the same rights as anyone else, but you aren't what you are dressed up as.

This all comes down to the fundamental question of what defines a man as a man and a woman as a woman.

Your entire argument comes down to the fact that you will support transgender people in their efforts to change, but you will not actually let them change. They can keep on striving all they want, but they aren't actually going to get anywhere, because you won't let them.

All because it challenges your perceptions of what a man and woman is, and the idea that things cannot change. You are transphobic - not because you have anything against someone with gender issues, but because you have something against people changing and crossing boundaries.

So don't bother with your claims that you support transgendered people, when you don't.

It can be said that identity itself is basically a very elaborate form of fancy dress. We are who we believe ourselves to be. We negotiate our identities based on these facts. Everything we say or do is based on an internal vision of who we believe we are. It is an internal world of make believe called the psyche that allows our ego to remain intact as we go through life.

Everything that makes us human comes from this internal world, because that is where we store all our meanings, based on the symbols and definitions we pick up from our culture and society. If is from this we know who we are and who we want to be. It is from this we can also determine who others are.

The symbology that defines what is a man and what is a woman comes from this internal world of meanings that we have all picked up, that is continually evolving. It is from here that we learn about gender identities and gender roles, and we define what makes a man and what makes a woman. We add these roles and identities to the myriad collection of other identities we learn throughout our lives.

This collection changes as society and people change - if you fear change, and want to cling on to your outdated concepts while still believing you are tolerant, you will fail. You will realise that you are not as tolerant as you would like to believe. All because you stick with outdated, essentialist principles that have been disproven.

It has been disproven that there is a difference between a male to female transsexual and a female on a genetic level. While this may not be every case, it only needs one exception to disprove flawed logic, and there have been exceptions.

And don't try to use absurd reductive arguments with me, unless you want me to start using absurd reductive arguments back. For example, it is pretty absurd to base your argument of the logical pretext that saying you are something doesn't make you something, which it is clear that this is not my argument. But to counter that, the answer is, actually I can, simply by changing the definition of whatever I claim to be so that it comes to define what I am.

This is the basis of Foucault's provocation theory, and has been the driving force between media, advertising, propaganda, and civil rights movements for the past century and a half now. It's all to do with the power of words and their meanings, because we define their meanings based on group consensus. Thus, I can become a xenomorph, simply by changing the definition of xenomorph. Before you wonder how that is possible, never underestimate the meme-tastic abilities of the internet.

 

[Zack1501]

Honestly no
I'm fine with people that are transgender or gay but I am nether. A guy is still a guy no matter what in my opinion. Its more then just the parts down there there are actual chemical differences between guys and girls.
Now if I didn't know at first that might be different but I'm still not sure.

 

[jedizero]

Bigot. Original. Is that how you end arguments?

You sir, are entitled to your opinions. Your hate spewing insulting opinions.

It is obviously a problem. Any evolutionary benefit homosexuality may have had, and it may not have even had any, is no longer relevant. People are too stuck in their PC mindset to step outside and look at what they are. And deviation from heterosexuality is an error and should be fixed. People argue about gay rights when in reality the problem IS homosexuality.

Now, I wonder...What if we decided something about *you* was a deviation and an error? What sort of evolutionary benefit is there for the gamut of fetishes we have ranging from the mundane to the insane? I'm sorry, I don't know what the evolutionary point of voraphilia (Fantasy of being eaten) is, but apparently as long as its not regarding guy on guy (Girl on girl gets a pass, I'm sure.) its completely fine.

I mean you say its not a choice, your born that way, so its obviously something that can be fixed when we find the right variables. But this generation is too engrained in PC and afraid to think so maybe the next generation will realize, hey, this is not how my body is supposed to work and I would like it to be fixed, what can we do about this? People make homosexuality who they are rather than a part of them, so they can never let go of it.

The only reason we should 'fix it', is because you are uncomfortable with it. I frankly believe that if both parties are consenting, and nobody ends up hurt, who really gives a rats ass? Apparently the thought, deep in your head, that somewhere out there two adults are engaging in consenting love. And it bothers you, incredibly so, just because they happen to be guy on guy.

As for 'PC', please take a look at this video, happily provided by this very site.
http://www.escapistmagazine.com/videos/view/the-big-picture/2783-Correctitude
Enjoy!

Doesn't matter really, I mean how many people who are afflicted by this would take a pill to stop it? I'm sure a lot of people hate they are homosexual or w/e. And in 50yrs once people stop being PC retards they will find a cure for it and this will be archived in libraries where few people even know about. I'd almost be willing to vote for gay rights to accelerate the process.

Of course. PC is nothing more than being a 'retard', not actually giving a shit about other people. And claiming that you don't like being PC is NOT in fact, a way to try and justify your hateful and hurtful views. That's sarcasm if you don't get it.

 

[Dellaudis]

It has been disproven that there is a difference between a male to female transsexual and a female on a genetic level. While this may not be every case, it only needs one exception to disprove flawed logic, and there have been exceptions.

I'm sorry, I don't follow. Mind explaining this part a bit more?

 

[Da_Vane]

MTF people are women.

No, they aren't. They like to call themselves that and they feel that, but they are no more a woman than an 85lb anorexic is fat. Both may believe it with all their heart, but its still not true.

I assume you consider yourself a straight man. For the sake of argument, lets assume you believe this. Well, you're not. You're in fact a homosexual, no matter how much you claim to be straight, you cant change the fact that you're gay. You are not straight, nor will you ever be straight. You may believe it with all your heart, but its still not true.

How does it feel to be treated this way?

Your assumption about me is about as far from correct as possible lol.

But, assuming for the moment I was a straight man in that scenario... your comparison is silly. Only you can say what you feel emotionally, I don't deny that trans people feel the way they do. The question of changing sex however is physical and can be verified by medical examination. Their gender didn't change. Their chromosomes didn't change. They just had cosmetic surgery and hormones to mimic what they would like to be.

This is where your ignorance is showing, Kendarik. Ignoring the fact you continually try to act smart while sidestepping the question, I will repeat some key facts you seem to be ignoring to preserve your belief:

1) Sex and gender are different - the two terms are not used interchangeably. Sex is the physical characteristics, and you are correct, these have not changed. However, gender is their identity, based on their role in society, and this has changed (although to quite a few, it will be perceived to have never have changed, but instead to have always been different from their sex). This is based on a lot more than just their their sexual characteristics, such as their genitals, but also on other genderised aspects of society.

Secondly, on the matter of hormones, in most cases this is to place them in an appropriate hormonal environment, not only to mimic what they would like to be, but also to restore any hormonal imbalances. Studies have shown that transsexuals often have different hormonal levels prior to treatment that is often remedied by hormonal therapy.

Once again, this brings us back to the argument that you seem to want to avoid, even though you seem to keep focusing on the essential biological medical basis of transsexuality, you don't want to deal with the fact that hormones are also part of the very important biological process, and that these do change.

In fact, hormones have also been know to affect sexuality, and drug testing on animals has been carried out that has allowed for the prototyping of a drug that prevents homosexuality through hormone therapy. The sex hormones have a lot more impact on sex and sexuality than chromosomes ever do, so you might want to drop your essentialist viewpoints while trying to hold on to your feigned tolerance, because it just won't wash.

 

[jedizero]

So, obtaining consent on false grounds could get you charged with harassment.
Personally, I'd rather avoid the problem outright by imposing laws that reconstructed genitals must be marked with a tattoo, or similar.

CONGRATULATIONS!

You have just made it easier to point out, and ostracize people because they are different. Leading ultimately to harassment, threats, and even murder. Based solely upon the fact that they are different.

Who would have guessed adopting tactics that Nazi Germany chose to follow would backfire so spectacularly?

Yeah, sure. It'd be kind of nice to know, but this...this is destroying any potential privacy the subject may have. The point is, sleeping with someone who is Transgendered won't ruin your life. It won't 'turn you gay', it won't do anything. It is ultimately harmless to you, and may even be enjoyable. If you thought someone was attractive enough to have sex with, then it was your choice, and you can bloody well deal with it, without trying to hurt so many other people.

 

[Versuvius]

MTF people are women.

No, they aren't. They like to call themselves that and they feel that, but they are no more a woman than an 85lb anorexic is fat. Both may believe it with all their heart, but its still not true.

I assume you consider yourself a straight man. For the sake of argument, lets assume you believe this. Well, you're not. You're in fact a homosexual, no matter how much you claim to be straight, you cant change the fact that you're gay. You are not straight, nor will you ever be straight. You may believe it with all your heart, but its still not true.

How does it feel to be treated this way?

Your assumption about me is about as far from correct as possible lol.

But, assuming for the moment I was a straight man in that scenario... your comparison is silly. Only you can say what you feel emotionally, I don't deny that trans people feel the way they do. The question of changing sex however is physical and can be verified by medical examination. Their gender didn't change. Their chromosomes didn't change. They just had cosmetic surgery and hormones to mimic what they would like to be.

snip

I don't think he knows bodubuilders taking steroids will develop breasts and lactate. I expect he is also 12.

 

[Muspelheim]

ya wow! I mean, what's next marks for people of different faiths? political standing? I can't believe someone in this day and age would have such an archaic idea.

Aye, even more so when we all know how well it worked out in the past.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/1/12/Auschwitz_survivor_displays_tattoo_detail.jpg

But I guess that's being PC. Shame on me.

Edit: Before someone raises the issue... It's not a massive surge of Godwin's Law. Or rather, the Godwin's Law arguement had held any water whatsoever if there wasn't such a blatant reason for it. Sometimes, it's a rather accurate comparison.

 

[MrMixelPixel]

Absolutely.

I find cross dressers pretty attractive. Dating a transgender person would be pretty cool.

The only reason I wouldn't is because I currently have a girlfriend =P

 

[Diddy_Mao]

Off the top of my head I'd probably say no.

But in all fairness I haven't been in a situation where I'd have to make that decision.

I've had TG friends before, I don't have an issue with the choice, or lifestyle or whatever the correct term is. If I'm being perfectly honest my complete lack of give-a-shit has been a bigger point of contention than anything else.

But that's a subject for a different discussion.

 

[Vanitas likes Bubbles]

no no no no no. I would not. I have nothing against transgendered people. I'm sure they're nice and everything (I have yet to meet one) but it's the same reason why I would'nt date a person with downs sydrome or a gay person (again i'm sure their nice and everything) but its just not who i am. Besides i'm to prejudice and to picky. I haven't even had a gf yet for those very reasons (I'm 15, leave me alone). Again nothing against them and i apologise if i caused offense.

 

[MartianWarMachine]

Exactly! Ya know, i think i am done here. I am burned out on the hate, misunderstanding, and uneducated assumptions. Good luck to those who stick around. Be well ALL.

Nooo! You can't leave without a hug! *Hugs* ^-^

 

[Da_Vane]

It has been disproven that there is a difference between a male to female transsexual and a female on a genetic level. While this may not be every case, it only needs one exception to disprove flawed logic, and there have been exceptions.

I'm sorry, I don't follow. Mind explaining this part a bit more?

Certainly. Under the rules of logic, it only takes a single exception to disprove a rule. If you say something like "All Bings are Bongs" then it only takes one example where a Bing is not a Bong to disprove that rule.

Kendarik argued that MtF transsexuals may say they are women, but will never be women, and is inferring this is a case for all MtF transsexuals. This is a gross overgeneralization, since I have already stated the case of the sheer diversity of the transgender community, to which the poll refers to, of which transsexuals are actually a subset, even though the causes of transsexuality are just as equally just as diverse.

Thus, as long as one example exists where there isn't a genetic difference between a female a male to female transsexual, I can logically refute Kendarik's argument. Such an example does indeed exist.

There is a condition based on the inability of the body to register certain sex hormones. It exists in both a form which fails to register androgens (male sex hormones) and gynogens (female sex hormones) the result is that regardless of the sex chromosomes the person actually has, this insensitivity will cause the individual to grow either female or male, respectively. It is not unheard of for patients suffering from this condition to become transsexual, albeit with some difficulty, since the hormonal insensitivity is an obvious issue that needs working around.

Thus, you have a male to female transsexual who is genetically identical to a genetic female. At least, genetically identical as far as the sex chromosomes are concerned. It could be argued they are not exactly genetically identical, but unless you are expecting to be dealing with genetically identical twins, chances are any argument based on this level of genetically identical subjects is going to be virtually impossible.

That said, given the nature of shared environments in the womb and hormonal imbalances, identical twins do actually tend to result in a slightly increased number of homosexual males and male to female transsexuals. There's not enough samples to do a real study on this though.

 

[artanis_neravar]

MTF people are women.

No, they aren't. They like to call themselves that and they feel that, but they are no more a woman than an 85lb anorexic is fat. Both may believe it with all their heart, but its still not true.

I assume you consider yourself a straight man. For the sake of argument, lets assume you believe this. Well, you're not. You're in fact a homosexual, no matter how much you claim to be straight, you cant change the fact that you're gay. You are not straight, nor will you ever be straight. You may believe it with all your heart, but its still not true.

How does it feel to be treated this way?

Your assumption about me is about as far from correct as possible lol.

But, assuming for the moment I was a straight man in that scenario... your comparison is silly. Only you can say what you feel emotionally, I don't deny that trans people feel the way they do. The question of changing sex however is physical and can be verified by medical examination. Their gender didn't change. Their chromosomes didn't change. They just had cosmetic surgery and hormones to mimic what they would like to be.

snip

I don't think he knows bodubuilders taking steroids will develop breasts and lactate. I expect he is also 12.

Breasts are a secondary sexual characteristic, and do not determine whether a person is male of female. Genetically transgenders are still their original gender, physically they are transgender. That is why they have that word, it is a qualifier, like black, white, Hebrew, Christian.

 

[BehattedWanderer]

I...don't know. I'm honestly unsure. Though, I'm inclined to say that if I were happy with them, then I'd still be happy with them. Why should happiness stop, for minor details?

 

[Da_Vane]

ya wow! I mean, what's next marks for people of different faiths? political standing? I can't believe someone in this day and age would have such an archaic idea.

Aye, even more so when we all know how well it worked out in the past.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/1/12/Auschwitz_survivor_displays_tattoo_detail.jpg

But I guess that's being PC. Shame on me.

Exactly! Ya know, i think i am done here. I am burned out on the hate, misunderstanding, and uneducated assumptions. Good luck to those who stick around. Be well ALL.

You can't go! I just got back! I even worked on all my best X-men lines...

"Let them pass that law, Charles..."

 

[artanis_neravar]

It has been disproven that there is a difference between a male to female transsexual and a female on a genetic level. While this may not be every case, it only needs one exception to disprove flawed logic, and there have been exceptions.

I'm sorry, I don't follow. Mind explaining this part a bit more?

Certainly. Under the rules of logic, it only takes a single exception to disprove a rule. If you say something like "All Bings are Bongs" then it only takes one example where a Bing is not a Bong to disprove that rule.

Kendarik argued that MtF transsexuals may say they are women, but will never be women, and is inferring this is a case for all MtF transsexuals. This is a gross overgeneralization, since I have already stated the case of the sheer diversity of the transgender community, to which the poll refers to, of which transsexuals are actually a subset, even though the causes of transsexuality are just as equally just as diverse.

Thus, as long as one example exists where there isn't a genetic difference between a female a male to female transsexual, I can logically refute Kendarik's argument. Such an example does indeed exist.

There is a condition based on the inability of the body to register certain sex hormones. It exists in both a form which fails to register androgens (male sex hormones) and gynogens (female sex hormones) the result is that regardless of the sex chromosomes the person actually has, this insensitivity will cause the individual to grow either female or male, respectively. It is not unheard of for patients suffering from this condition to become transsexual, albeit with some difficulty, since the hormonal insensitivity is an obvious issue that needs working around.

Thus, you have a male to female transsexual who is genetically identical to a genetic female. At least, genetically identical as far as the sex chromosomes are concerned. It could be argued they are not exactly genetically identical, but unless you are expecting to be dealing with genetically identical twins, chances are any argument based on this level of genetically identical subjects is going to be virtually impossible.

That said, given the nature of shared environments in the womb and hormonal imbalances, identical twins do actually tend to result in a slightly increased number of homosexual males and male to female transsexuals. There's not enough samples to do a real study on this though.

Except that anyone with XY chromosomes is genetically male, even if they are born with female sexual organs

 

[The Lunatic]

Uhm.

Not sure really.

I mean, I'm gay, so, obviously I'm somewhat more open to "Untraditional love".

But, a guy who used to be a girl?

Honestly, I'd rather not know. I know that sounds awful, but, I'd be much happier with the person as they are, rather than thinking about how they were and all that.

If I knew, I don't know how well I'd be able to prevent myself from over-thinking it.

Probably take some time to get used to, at the very least.

I dislike the resentment some transgender people have towards members of their original gender.

I've met a couple of M to F over my years, and a couple were very condescending towards males, acting superior due to their new-found femininity. I couldn't help but find this attitude a bit pathetic really.

 

[MartianWarMachine]

It has been disproven that there is a difference between a male to female transsexual and a female on a genetic level. While this may not be every case, it only needs one exception to disprove flawed logic, and there have been exceptions.

I'm sorry, I don't follow. Mind explaining this part a bit more?

Certainly. Under the rules of logic, it only takes a single exception to disprove a rule. If you say something like "All Bings are Bongs" then it only takes one example where a Bing is not a Bong to disprove that rule.

Kendarik argued that MtF transsexuals may say they are women, but will never be women, and is inferring this is a case for all MtF transsexuals. This is a gross overgeneralization, since I have already stated the case of the sheer diversity of the transgender community, to which the poll refers to, of which transsexuals are actually a subset, even though the causes of transsexuality are just as equally just as diverse.

Thus, as long as one example exists where there isn't a genetic difference between a female a male to female transsexual, I can logically refute Kendarik's argument. Such an example does indeed exist.

There is a condition based on the inability of the body to register certain sex hormones. It exists in both a form which fails to register androgens (male sex hormones) and gynogens (female sex hormones) the result is that regardless of the sex chromosomes the person actually has, this insensitivity will cause the individual to grow either female or male, respectively. It is not unheard of for patients suffering from this condition to become transsexual, albeit with some difficulty, since the hormonal insensitivity is an obvious issue that needs working around.

Thus, you have a male to female transsexual who is genetically identical to a genetic female. At least, genetically identical as far as the sex chromosomes are concerned. It could be argued they are not exactly genetically identical, but unless you are expecting to be dealing with genetically identical twins, chances are any argument based on this level of genetically identical subjects is going to be virtually impossible.

That said, given the nature of shared environments in the womb and hormonal imbalances, identical twins do actually tend to result in a slightly increased number of homosexual males and male to female transsexuals. There's not enough samples to do a real study on this though.

Except that anyone with XY chromosomes is genetically male, even if they are born with female sexual organs

I think what she was trying to say (THINK, it's 3:50 am here >..<). It's possible for people like them to be transgendered, so they would be a FtM transsexual, even though they have XY chromosomes (And vice versa). So certain people's (already terrible and flawed) arguments fail (even more than they did already).