One of the biggest irritations of the Dragon Quest games is that you have to go find a priest to find out how far away you are to the next level up. Other RPG's, even JRPG's, show this information in the status screen. This would be the same type of irritation.Shemming said:How would this method handle enchanted weaons? Like, armour that boasted your speed. It seems it would bw hard to notice certain effects, even if this would be interesting.
Possibly have an option to take gear to a blacksmith to find out its exact stats?
This is only about gear, it would add some choice about what to loot and sell, if you didnt know exaclty what it was worth.Crono1973 said:One of the biggest irritations of the Dragon Quest games is that you have to go find a priest to find out how far away you are to the next level up. Other RPG's, even JRPG's, show this information in the status screen. This would be the same type of irritation.Shemming said:How would this method handle enchanted weaons? Like, armour that boasted your speed. It seems it would bw hard to notice certain effects, even if this would be interesting.
Possibly have an option to take gear to a blacksmith to find out its exact stats?
I think the player should have as much information as possible at his fingertips in an RPG. It should be easily readable of course so you could easily disregard information you don't care about while easily finding the information you do care about.Shemming said:This is only about gear, it would add some choice about what to loot and sell, if you didnt know exaclty what it was worth.Crono1973 said:One of the biggest irritations of the Dragon Quest games is that you have to go find a priest to find out how far away you are to the next level up. Other RPG's, even JRPG's, show this information in the status screen. This would be the same type of irritation.Shemming said:How would this method handle enchanted weaons? Like, armour that boasted your speed. It seems it would bw hard to notice certain effects, even if this would be interesting.
Possibly have an option to take gear to a blacksmith to find out its exact stats?
I would want to know levels tho. Hiding stats yes, but not level.
I would love to see this mixed with the battle system from Dark Souls/Demon's Souls. There, it's all about hit detection and skill and less about essentially turn-based fighting like in World of Warcraft or D&D. Not that those aren't fun, but I want something more awesome.Brawndo said:That's the whole idea. Imagine your typical medieval fantasy RPG: your character has a choice of backgrounds, and one of them is blacksmith. Whenever you picked up a weapon, you would be given a lot more textual, qualitative information than a character with a background as an alchemist. This way you are playing a ROLE and not an avatar of floating "Armorer: 12" and "Metallurgy: 15".silasbufu said:I was actually thinking about a system in an RPG, in which you don't find alot of magical items, weapons, armor etc, but when you do, they would have a very special property, and the only way to find out what it is, should be for you to search lore about the item by asking people with high knowledge, by searching through books, or by simply using them and seeing what happens.
Just a thought.
Statless altogether sounds a bit difficult, but I would certainly try it out.
*Blacksmith picks up a sword*
"The sword is well balanced and made of high-quality, extremely durable steel. It has a diamond shaped point which will allow it to break apart chainmail links with sufficient force."
*Blacksmith finds a mushroom*
"It's brown, smells like rotten eggs, and breaks apart easy in my hand."
*Alchemist picks up a sword*
"The sword is heavy and only sharp on one edge, the other is blunt. It appears to be steel, but could very well be iron."
*Alchemist finds a mushroom*
"This is of the Cobalt species. You know it has curative properties, but in large doses the innate toxin can cause blurred vision and temporary paralysis."
Oh snap!King of the Sandbox said:Of course. RPG's are about role-playing, not roll-playing.
I think your missing the point, the stats are still there and all the complexity that comes with them its just that instead of saying "Level 18 sword" it would be "A high grade piece of military weaponry, clearly better than the average weapon" etc. In my mind this would make it much more complex and immersivegmaverick019 said:this, i play my rpg's because there is awesome stat building/charts that i can look at and ponder about deciding my next move/level on what i need to do here and there.s69-5 said:Again, too much hassle.Avatar Roku said:But the difference is that the numbers are still there and you still level them by extensive use. You just have to actually role-play to figure out where you stand.s69-5 said:Well, since the numbers are what make it an RPG, I'm gonna say: Emphatic no.
Who the hell plays an RPG to not understand the stats behind item A or character B. That would make it an action game... and not an RPG.
I'd rather know the stats at a glance so that I can better equip my character for whatever situation. Hiding that from me would be an excercise in frustration (and plenty of fail/re-loads) which would probably cause me to catapult the game into another time zone.
Edit: Even the purposefully cryptic Dark Souls gives you extensive stat screens for all equipment and yourself as a character.
there is nothing wrong with action games, but this certainly is less rpg than fable even is.
RPG = Role Playing Game. You can make RPG without having numbers flash up on the screen. In your example of Zelda, the character could physically change as you progress through the game and be able to take more damage as a result. You wouldn't be explicitly told that you can now withstand 9 normal hits but it would be in the game and still be an RPG.Crono1973 said:Yes, stats make an RPG. You can get story and action and adventure from non RPG games, what sets RPG's apart are stats that represent character progression. Take Zelda for example, it's an action adventure game with an RPG element, that RPG element would be the heart containers. You have 20 hearts at the end of the game, you can take more damage than you could at the beginning with 3 hearts. It's the NUMBER of hearts that represents the RPG element, the character progression. Granted, Zelda is very RPG lite compared to real RPG games.
Without stats, Final Fantasy would be action adventure games, not RPG's.
I'm afraid that you've been mis-educated. It's actually the other way around. Statless play is the original, "pure" form of RPGs, as can be seen by childrens' make-believe games. "I'm going to play Batman!" etc. - pure role-playing game right there. All the numbers, etc. we find in gaming RPGs have been added by developers because "my guy wins because he's Batman!" isn't a valid gaming model for adults. So they created a stat mechanism for a frame of reference, then they added dice rolls to add tension and provide a foundation for strategic and tactical thinking.s69-5 said:Well, since the numbers are what make it an RPG, I'm gonna say: Emphatic no.
Who the hell plays an RPG to not understand the stats behind item A or character B. That would make it an action game... and not an RPG.
Edit: People on this site seem very confused as to what is an RPG (video game). Sorry, but RPG may be a misnomer, but the numbers are still what make it so. "Role play", that is more akin to improv acting, is better suited to the other kind of RP - table top.
Remove the stats and it ceases to be an RPG.
Dude, the progress that should be triggering the reward is the accomplishment of a purpose like "I saved the kingdom!". Not the counting of the beans that you've gathered.vivster said:no i would not
it pretty much undermines the main gameplay mechanics and one of the big reasons why RPGs are so addictive
it's all about progress... seeing progress activates the reward receptors in your brain which makes you happy
and by seeing ever higher numbers you get the shots you need to keep playing
Perfect. That's the kind of approach that makes "role" a meaningful word in role-play.chadachada123 said:I would love to see this mixed with the battle system from Dark Souls/Demon's Souls. There, it's all about hit detection and skill and less about essentially turn-based fighting like in World of Warcraft or D&D. Not that those aren't fun, but I want something more awesome.Brawndo said:That's the whole idea. Imagine your typical medieval fantasy RPG: your character has a choice of backgrounds, and one of them is blacksmith. Whenever you picked up a weapon, you would be given a lot more textual, qualitative information than a character with a background as an alchemist. This way you are playing a ROLE and not an avatar of floating "Armorer: 12" and "Metallurgy: 15".silasbufu said:I was actually thinking about a system in an RPG, in which you don't find alot of magical items, weapons, armor etc, but when you do, they would have a very special property, and the only way to find out what it is, should be for you to search lore about the item by asking people with high knowledge, by searching through books, or by simply using them and seeing what happens.
Just a thought.
Statless altogether sounds a bit difficult, but I would certainly try it out.
*Blacksmith picks up a sword*
"The sword is well balanced and made of high-quality, extremely durable steel. It has a diamond shaped point which will allow it to break apart chainmail links with sufficient force."
*Blacksmith finds a mushroom*
"It's brown, smells like rotten eggs, and breaks apart easy in my hand."
*Alchemist picks up a sword*
"The sword is heavy and only sharp on one edge, the other is blunt. It appears to be steel, but could very well be iron."
*Alchemist finds a mushroom*
"This is of the Cobalt species. You know it has curative properties, but in large doses the innate toxin can cause blurred vision and temporary paralysis."
It's bad design for the character to change without the player understanding why. What if you were just running along in a Mario game and out of the blue you became Super Mario and then a few steps later you shrunk again? Would that be good game design?Phoenixlight said:RPG = Role Playing Game. You can make RPG without having numbers flash up on the screen. In your example of Zelda, the character could physically change as you progress through the game and be able to take more damage as a result. You wouldn't be explicitly told that you can now withstand 9 normal hits but it would be in the game and still be an RPG.Crono1973 said:Yes, stats make an RPG. You can get story and action and adventure from non RPG games, what sets RPG's apart are stats that represent character progression. Take Zelda for example, it's an action adventure game with an RPG element, that RPG element would be the heart containers. You have 20 hearts at the end of the game, you can take more damage than you could at the beginning with 3 hearts. It's the NUMBER of hearts that represents the RPG element, the character progression. Granted, Zelda is very RPG lite compared to real RPG games.
Without stats, Final Fantasy would be action adventure games, not RPG's.
if that's what you truly mean, then personally i completely disagree, that seems insanely boring to me and i'd rather see all the insane numbers/stats that go along with everything i have and am working towards throughout the game.Macrobstar said:I think your missing the point, the stats are still there and all the complexity that comes with them its just that instead of saying "Level 18 sword" it would be "A high grade piece of military weaponry, clearly better than the average weapon" etc. In my mind this would make it much more complex and immersivegmaverick019 said:this, i play my rpg's because there is awesome stat building/charts that i can look at and ponder about deciding my next move/level on what i need to do here and there.s69-5 said:Again, too much hassle.Avatar Roku said:But the difference is that the numbers are still there and you still level them by extensive use. You just have to actually role-play to figure out where you stand.s69-5 said:Well, since the numbers are what make it an RPG, I'm gonna say: Emphatic no.
Who the hell plays an RPG to not understand the stats behind item A or character B. That would make it an action game... and not an RPG.
I'd rather know the stats at a glance so that I can better equip my character for whatever situation. Hiding that from me would be an excercise in frustration (and plenty of fail/re-loads) which would probably cause me to catapult the game into another time zone.
Edit: Even the purposefully cryptic Dark Souls gives you extensive stat screens for all equipment and yourself as a character.
there is nothing wrong with action games, but this certainly is less rpg than fable even is.
Actually, I would be very interested in playing a game like that.CrystalShadow said:In short you'd have to at least give people hints as to how well or how badly various characters are doing at things which are visual analogues of the actual stats.
The appropriate denial of information is just as important as the inclusion of information for creating an experience of immersion.Crono1973 said:I stand by what I said earlier, important information about the progress of a game (or a character) should be readily available. Most games hide the HUD for example, but if you stop moving, it will pop up again.
Sitting on your couch, looking at a TV screen with a controller in hand stands in the way of immersion. Your cell phone going off in a medieval world stands in the way of immersion, etc...Hyper-space said:Oh snap!King of the Sandbox said:Of course. RPG's are about role-playing, not roll-playing.
But yeah, obnoxious stats (NUMBERS EVERYWHERE) stand in the way of complete immersion.
Making the stats available in a status window that can be easily ignored (for those who don't want to look at stats) is not forcing it on you. However, the reverse is not true. Hiding stats from everyone because a few people don't want to see them can't be fixed for those who want to see them.Jarlaxl said:Actually, I would be very interested in playing a game like that.CrystalShadow said:In short you'd have to at least give people hints as to how well or how badly various characters are doing at things which are visual analogues of the actual stats.
The appropriate denial of information is just as important as the inclusion of information for creating an experience of immersion.Crono1973 said:I stand by what I said earlier, important information about the progress of a game (or a character) should be readily available. Most games hide the HUD for example, but if you stop moving, it will pop up again.
There will always be people after all the information they can acquire, and games are always going to be numerically governed - as CrystalShadow mentioned, Pokemon is a great example of this - but many players will differentiate information based on the experience they are trying to facilitate, and the availability of information will influence this.
When you make information available, it calls attention to that particular data and systematizes it. Let's go back to Pokemon. The "known" information consists of the statistics such as Attack, Special Defense, Speed, etc. The unknown data consists of EVs and IVs which are meant to, through the stats, reflect the individuality of any given Pokemon, so I can compare my Rattata to yours, and mine is unique through, among other things, its statistics. These features have been reverse-engineered for the sake of min-maxers, but this information is not thrust in your face, so you can safely ignore it for the sake of immersion if so you choose. If EVs and IVs were made public knowledge, they would just become another part of the systematic knowledge you already possess and would be unable to capture the experience they currently do.
It doesn't work to say "make that information available and ignore it if you choose:" players are presented with a system, and will capitalize on it. They work within the parameters of available rules; hidden rules work their magic through their very transparency.
Even in your mention of HUDs, there is a conscious decision to make that information available, but the designers chose to make it available when relevant. You can't look at a map when you're running through a jungle, for instance; that HUD feature is specifically designed for the experience of the game and making it feel a bit more realistic while not violating practicality.
In short: choosing which information to give the player and which information not to give the player are significant decisions in game design, and dictate much of how the game plays. If an RPG were to be made where stats were unavailable, the game would have to be entirely designed to accommodate such a style.
I'm not saying that we should do away with the complete information offered in some RPGs - there will always be a demand for that - but it would be an interesting change if an RPG were designed to de-emphasize numerical information.
Agreed.gmaverick019 said:if that's what you truly mean, then personally i completely disagree, that seems insanely boring to me and i'd rather see all the insane numbers/stats that go along with everything i have and am working towards throughout the game.Macrobstar said:I think your missing the point, the stats are still there and all the complexity that comes with them its just that instead of saying "Level 18 sword" it would be "A high grade piece of military weaponry, clearly better than the average weapon" etc. In my mind this would make it much more complex and immersivegmaverick019 said:this, i play my rpg's because there is awesome stat building/charts that i can look at and ponder about deciding my next move/level on what i need to do here and there.s69-5 said:Again, too much hassle.Avatar Roku said:But the difference is that the numbers are still there and you still level them by extensive use. You just have to actually role-play to figure out where you stand.s69-5 said:Well, since the numbers are what make it an RPG, I'm gonna say: Emphatic no.
Who the hell plays an RPG to not understand the stats behind item A or character B. That would make it an action game... and not an RPG.
I'd rather know the stats at a glance so that I can better equip my character for whatever situation. Hiding that from me would be an excercise in frustration (and plenty of fail/re-loads) which would probably cause me to catapult the game into another time zone.
Edit: Even the purposefully cryptic Dark Souls gives you extensive stat screens for all equipment and yourself as a character.
there is nothing wrong with action games, but this certainly is less rpg than fable even is.
Level-up statistics have nothing to do with what I said, and for the first generation or 2 of Pokemon, such statistics were not included.Crono1973 said:Making the stats available in a status window that can be easily ignored (for those who don't want to look at stats) is not forcing it on you. However, the reverse is not true. Hiding stats from everyone because a few people don't want to see them can't be fixed for those who want to see them.
Pokemon displays your stats at every level up BTW. It also has an XP bar on screen the whole time you are in battle. You watch it increase after every battle. Many RPG's don't push stats as much as Pokemon. Many will just say "Level Up" and leave it up to you to go check your stats inside the menu. That's as close to hidden stats as I want to go.
To which I reply: let's try something different. I believe that RPGs would be dramatically improved with streamlined and more interesting information on progress. As it stands, I find that RPGs are often sub-par storybooks you have to do algebra for if you want to keep reading. There's little connection between world and system. There's room for improvement.RPG's with stats visible has lasted many many years. If they start making RPG's with hidden stats, I bet they won't last as long. There is a reason RPG's are stat heavy, it's because people like them that way.