Problems that men have to deal with

[QuietlyListening]

I think it's important to note that a lot of these problems are not mutually exclusive with feminism. The whole idea is to fight sexist ideas. These ideas can have multiple effects. Gender essentialist ideas about the nature of parenthood cause fathers to lose custody battles and to be looked down upon for favoring fatherhood over careers. For women, the expectation of motherhood forces women to either make a socially unacceptable choice of pursuing a career over a family, or do the nigh impossible and "have it all."

Sexist ideas about love and sex lead to warped views of the behaviors of rapists, leaving many women without the support or safety to come forward with accusations. Likewise, many men suffer from similar crimes, but their troubles are often derided, laughed off, or dismissed.

Both men and women face similar issues when it comes to dress and appearance. The standards of beauty for women are unreasonably high, and women face judgment in almost every aspect of their opinion as a matter of daily life. While men don't face such high standards, tastes that run outside the norm can carry large risks. It was only recently that courts began striking down "panic defenses" which defended assault and in some cases murder of gay/trans individuals (usually men).

That said, even when issues are unique, we should still support our other halves. Women face discrimination in the workplace, being judged as less competent, getting screwed over in salary negotiations, and even facing sexual harassment in traditionally male-dominated fields. Men, in fact, even benefit in the short term from this type of sexism, by being seen as comparatively stronger and more capable. But in the long run, these attitudes drive out and discourage talent, and they contradict the very idea of a meritocratic society. In the end, we're all better off without them.


The main breakdown I see in communication of these issues is how they're brought up in discussion. In a discussion of, say, women competing in technical fields, bringing up the issue of male graduation rates in college, while technically accurate, only really seems to derail the discussion. Likewise, in a discussion of legitimate issues men face, many of which have been stated in this very thread, bringing up examples of how women have it worse doesn't really push any new ideas forward. It just drags people back down into us vs. them.

So I say lets show a little discipline and remember that we're all actually on the same side. Right?

 

[Artaneius]

I think the biggest issue I have to deal with is that my family is full of fuck-ups that expect me to help them whenever they get in trouble. Right now I'm mostly avoiding them since a huge argument happened when I wouldn't loan out about 5 grand to a dead beat family member. Not going to loan out money to someone I know isn't going to pay back ever.

 

[MrHide-Patten]

Personally never got any flak myself, but there is the niggling judgment eyes of those who can't see/don't care. Ergo, My Little Pony, a show smothered in what I would call weaponized cuteness. I couldn't watch it due to the testosterone in my body, destroying me from the inside out as I attempted to watch.
That's not meant as a slight against the show itself or the people that watch it, I for some bizarre reason could not stomach it.

TL;DR: Most problems I have are based of what I think men/boys should be doing, based off of Societal influences. Like say when the former Last Guardian director said the game couldn't have a female protagonist because 'girls wear skirts', it struck a cord of fury within me knowing that its a societal enforced.

 

[Frankster]

snip

It's not my style to quote posts in full and I always snip my quotes that way, you can look through my posting history if you think I'm saying BS. Furthermore any attempt at me masking what you said is kinda pointless if people can just scroll up and read what you say.
Anyways if I want to reply to a specific phrase since I don't know how to multi quote easily I just paste it between quotation marks like I'm about to do:

"Instead of: "200 women raped last year you say? Ha! 300 men were beaten up by other men last year! See!?! I've got problems too!""

And who the fuck said that in this thread? Who's the person here saying men have it worst then women? This is what I'm getting at with you. It's a thread concerned specifically with males, not women in any way yet you're going around wriggling your finger going "pff you silly men, women have it way worst" even though no one seems to be indicating they EVER thought otherwise and as I said, acting as a gatekeeper figure who decides what is acceptable and what isn't.

"Instead of replacing someone else's problems with your own in the discussion, relate to them." I feel there's a wee bit of hypocrisy.

Besides the nice assumptions about posters and their view on women, you haven't done jack in relating in this thread, all you're doing is literally trying to replace men's problem with women even though they ain't the focus in this particular thread.

It's like as if you went to a thread about womens problems and issues and went "what about the menz?". Or if you'd prefer, replace menz with a minority of some sort that have it worst then women, but point being you're basically showing up, telling people their feelz don't matter cos in the thread dedicated specifically to their feelz, they should instead talk about the feelz of the gender that isn't the focus in this thread, all the whilst hypocritically telling people they have to show sympathy and shit.


"My 'opinion', as it were, is that several thousand women still getting raped every year is worse than a few hundred men getting attacked by intoxicated soldiers. Girls being expected to starve themselves to look thin and 'attractive' because society still largely equates a woman's value with her sexual allure, is worse than men being expected to be tough and strong."

Cool for you. Why don't you save it for any number of female or feminism focused threads? And I'm not really a good debater (as you can probably tell) but isn't what your doing here one of those logical fallacies people are so fond of?
The Gaza argument or w/e it's originally called (dude people are dying in gaza all the time, you getting your shoes pissed on is nothing in comparison so you got no right to complain!).

"Say this: "Wow, seems like men are sure hurting a lot of people. Why don't we try to change how men are perceived and socialized so violence isn't so 'normal' for them?""

You know I was actually being facetious when I asked if heterosexual male posters needed to add a disclaimer to their posts if they wanted to post their own personal feelings unrelated to female issues. I didn't actually think you would be serious. Ok dude if that's what it takes:

"Wow, seems like men are sure hurting a lot of people. Why don't we try to change how men are perceived and socialized so violence isn't so 'normal' for them?" There.

 

[Adam Lester]

Men get raped, but that doesn't negate the fact that women get raped. Women get raped, but that doesn't negate the fact that men get raped. Men are held to a standard, women are held to a standard. It's like watching two people sit in a room beat themselves with hammers in an attempt to see who can get more pity from the opposing side.

But nope, you're all victims and therefore correct. Fuck helping out anyone else outside out of your gender/race/sexual orientation bubble, because YOUR problems are the only ones that exist. Just keep screaming over the other person and chucking those doctored statistics around.

"My side is the only side that matters"...the war cry of a supremacist.

 

[The Rogue Wolf]

Okay, so here's one I've thought of. Why is it I'm not a man until I've had a son, and I'm expected to have that son carry on "my legacy"? Does anyone tell the female of our species that she's not a woman until she's had a daughter? (I do sometimes wonder- there was an episode of Home Improvement where Jill, the wife, expressed the desire for a daughter after having three sons. I remember this episode primarily for the line "She let the ergo out of her subconscious".) If you need to pop out a son and force him to follow your path in order to "continue your legacy", then I think your legacy isn't much worth continuing.

 

[Adam Lester]

Okay, so here's one I've thought of. Why is it I'm not a man until I've had a son, and I'm expected to have that son carry on "my legacy"? Does anyone tell the female of our species that she's not a woman until she's had a daughter? (I do sometimes wonder- there was an episode of Home Improvement where Jill, the wife, expressed the desire for a daughter after having three sons. I remember this episode primarily for the line "She let the ergo out of her subconscious".) If you need to pop out a son and force him to follow your path in order to "continue your legacy", then I think your legacy isn't much worth continuing.

To get deep for a bit, I think it's nothing more than the urge we all have to be remembered in some way shape or form after our time has passed and to be quite frank, making the babies is the easiest way to leave a piece of you to continue on. I lived in the backwoods of PA and worked at Walmart for a bit, and those chucklefucks were proof that brain cells nor a job are required to shit out a litter. Just a six back a Yuengling and some Garth Brooks CDs, apparently. Personally, I'm getting a vasectomy. So if we're not men until we have kids...pleasure to meet you Margret, my name's Barbra.


We're also just now breaking out of set-in-stone gender roles that have held in place since who-knows-when with our culture. I mean, second wave feminism (the most successful one) and gay rights didn't start picking up momentum until the 60s'...not that far away if you really think about it in the grand scheme of things.

 

[WhiteNachos]

Who has it worse is an opinion, because better and worse are subjective. You don't get to ask that everyone start the conversation by agreeing with you..

So what you're saying is that if someone has a hang nail, and another person is hemorrhaging internally and will die without immediate treatment, the hemorrhaging patient being in worse condition than the person with the hangnail is a matter of opinion? In case you've forgotten we're not talking about just a bunch of hurt feelings on the internet.

I probably shouldn't have made such a broad statement but in this case it really is opinion because it requires apples and oranges comparisons as well as a subjective rating of certain things.

Like for instance the double standard that slutty women is bad and slutty men is OK. Some women are prudish or asexual and that double standard has no impact on them at all. Some slutty women don't care too much about being judged that way.

There's probably hundreds of advantages/disadvantages to being a man or a woman saying one has it worse or better than the other is subjective (at least if you're talking western countries).

We're talking about women who are still beaten, drugged, raped, abused, killed and generally treated like cattle, even in the US.

Women are treated like cattle in the US? Cut the hyperbole will you. Also cut the appeal to emotion crap "Oh no those poor women are getting beaten drugged and murdered, never mind that that stuff also happens to men, won't someone please think of the women"

In case you demand 'proof' let's not forget that just 2 short years ago the 'war on women' was considered a viable, inspiring campaign point for a large segment of the conservative party.

Bullshit. The only people who called it the war on women were liberals, and it basically amounted to them opposing abortion (like they have for decades) and them opposing having birth control covered by federal health insurance. None of the conservatives raised any objections to birth control being covered by private insurance or by the civilians themselves.

Instead of replacing someone else's problems with your own in the discussion, relate to them.

Instead of: "200 women raped last year you say? Ha! 300 men were beaten up by other men last year! See!?! I've got problems too!"

Say this: "Wow, seems like men are sure hurting a lot of people. Why don't we try to change how men are perceived and socialized so violence isn't so 'normal' for them?"

That argument is insulting. It's singling out men for special treatment as if we are especially dangerous.

And no, I did not approach the above posts that way because it irritates me to hear someone shouting at the top of their lungs about how bad their hangnail is in the middle of an emergency room.

This is a post about men's problems, not women's problems.

My 'opinion', as it were, is that several thousand women still getting raped every year is worse than a few hundred men getting attacked by intoxicated soldiers.

[citation needed]

Girls being expected to starve themselves to look thin and 'attractive' because society still largely equates a woman's value with her sexual allure, is worse than men being expected to be tough and strong.

Expected to starve themselves? Again cut the bullshit. Anorexia is classified as an eating disorder and people who do it are asked to get help. And you're completely ignoring the body issues men face (including some who get anorexia).

Does that mean men don't have problems? No, of course not. We could spend all day talking about the 'G.I. Joe problem'. But the fact of the matter is men's problems are both smaller in scale and intensity, and men are in stronger positions to solve those problems themselves.

Nice victim blaming. It's unreasonable to expect all men to come together as a group and solve their problems. The men in charge do not necessarily care about the men with no power.

And no it's not a fact that women have it worse, it's an opinion. There's been studies that say men get harsher sentences for the same crimes than woman. They're more likely to be given jail sentences, more likely to get longer jail sentences and the vast majority of prisoners are men. What exactly can you say that's objectively worse than that?

You want men to stop raping? Stop laughing at your buddies' rape jokes.

Prove those jokes cause rape.

You want men to not be viewed as vapid and lusting only after a woman's physical features? Don't talk about how 'hot' women are in the hallway.

Because if you don't want men to be viewed as thinking only about sex don't EVER talk about sex, lord knows you can't expect women to view men as human beings who sometimes think about sex and sometimes don't. /s

If men talk, people will listen.
If women talk, they get a special on Bravo.

I didn't know the UN broadcasted only on Bravo.

 

[Thaluikhain]

This thread is a gem, and I mean that in the positive sense. I have been lurking in wait for something else than gender discussions that constantly have the backdrop of female issues. Why is this so important to me though? Well...

Ostensibly, the "not all men"-defence annoys a lot of feminists not because it is false (of course not all men do the bad things), but because it shifts the focus of a discussion of female problems to a discussion of male problems. It is not so much the case that male problems are unworthy of discussion as much as that focus shift seems to crops up so frequently that the original topic is left undiscussed.

Very much this. Male prison rape, for example, is often seen as a tragedy to derail threads about female rape, but either hilarious or an important part of the justice system outside it. Not sure which of those is worse.

Just as discussions of female issues need to remain focused so does a thread about men's issues. I truly think that men's issues need attention. And I have a suspicion that a lot of the flak "Men's Rights Activists" catch is because they are not remaining focused on men's issues, but men's problems as contrasted to female problems. I am much more interested in questions like "what are the expectations of being a man, and which of them are stupid?" than some sort of male vs. female power struggle conspiracy. (Again, this is an uninformed suspicion of what the MRA community is like in general, not a statement of definite truth.)

The MRM is predominantly a reactionary backlash against feminism. It's not particularly concerned with men's rights, unless you have the mindset that they can only exist in opposition to women's rights, and that feminism must be an attack on men.

You see this with more or less any rights movement. Groups, often with stuff like "Values", "Traditional" or "Family" in their name, opposing increased rights of, for example, LGBT people.

 

[WhiteNachos]

This thread is a gem, and I mean that in the positive sense. I have been lurking in wait for something else than gender discussions that constantly have the backdrop of female issues. Why is this so important to me though? Well...

Ostensibly, the "not all men"-defence annoys a lot of feminists not because it is false (of course not all men do the bad things), but because it shifts the focus of a discussion of female problems to a discussion of male problems. It is not so much the case that male problems are unworthy of discussion as much as that focus shift seems to crops up so frequently that the original topic is left undiscussed.

Very much this. Male prison rape, for example, is often seen as a tragedy to derail threads about female rape, but either hilarious or an important part of the justice system outside it. Not sure which of those is worse.

Just as discussions of female issues need to remain focused so does a thread about men's issues. I truly think that men's issues need attention. And I have a suspicion that a lot of the flak "Men's Rights Activists" catch is because they are not remaining focused on men's issues, but men's problems as contrasted to female problems. I am much more interested in questions like "what are the expectations of being a man, and which of them are stupid?" than some sort of male vs. female power struggle conspiracy. (Again, this is an uninformed suspicion of what the MRA community is like in general, not a statement of definite truth.)

The MRM is predominantly a reactionary backlash against feminism. It's not particularly concerned with men's rights, unless you have the mindset that they can only exist in opposition to women's rights, and that feminism must be an attack on men.

You see this with more or less any rights movement. Groups, often with stuff like "Values", "Traditional" or "Family" in their name, opposing increased rights of, for example, LGBT people.

I don't know much about the broader men's rights movement but I do know that ever since the US army allowed women in frontline combat roles (or whatever it's called), a lawsuit was filed against the federal government to stop the draft from being men only since the original supreme court justification for this was that women weren't allowed in those roles.

The lawsuit was filed by a men's rights organization.

 

[Sillarra]

Wow long topic, 8 pages already...I don't think I have much to add here.

But I did have a personal experience during my internship. It was at a small company where they had street soccer session after work (although it's hard to call it "after work" since it's a software development company where they continue working well after 10 PM). I don't like soccer, or rather sports in general and have no interest at it, and the first time I politely declined to play with them once evening I had to spend the rest of the internship being mocked by the men that I would rather play netball with the women. Seriously guys, some people have different interests than you do.

 

[Spearmaster]

I think the responses in this thread need to be sorted into 2 categories. Problems from being "Male" and problems with being a "Man". "Man" carries with it a lot more preconceived notions about its characteristics where "Male" is just a biological definition. It sounds like a lot of "Males" want to have the honor of being called "Men" without having to put forth the effort and also that a lot of "Males" are feeling the pressure of having "Man" pushed on them. Maybe its time we stop referring to every "Male" of the species as a "Man" by default. I don't know which the OP was trying to identify with, being "Male" or being a "Man" so I cant really say what concerns are warranted and which are just whining.

The term "Man" carries so much more with it than the term "Male" but "Man" has been used interchangeably with "Male" for so long that the term "Manly Man" showed up to signify that there is more to "Man" than just a biological definition. So right now it seems were in between "Man" meaning "Male" and "Man" meaning "Manly Man". So, every "Male" has to decide for themselves weather they identify as simply "Male" or as the sub-gender "Man" then we can have a proper discussion.

from a social psyc/biological sense, what you are saying makes sense, but is irrelevent.

this thread is about cultural expectations that rot each particular person.


given you seem to be trying to pull in the bio vs cultural aspects, you may find it interesting that cultural archetypes for men are significantly less in western cultural than the archetypes for woman.

as many issues as women actually face in western/world cultures, they have more variety of behavioral patterns to choose from and still have the safety as being viewed as a normal member of that gender.

in all honesty, i got lucky. six and a half feet and built like a wall. got really good about shutting down anyone who questioned my actions and i am aggressive enough to do whatever i feel like. as said, i got lucky and some of this shit still annoys me.

this is a discussion that is actually important due to the fact that male stereotypes actually isolate men from the support that many of them require (all of them in honesty). someone mentioned depression and suicide in an earlier post. take a look at those rates in male vs female populations and then, please reconsider the nitpicking and see the tread for what it is.

which is in my opinion: guys, as pissed off as women get for the same reason, listing their personal grips.

josh

Yes but how many of those expectations are self imposed? How many are assuming a social title where they do not meet the requirements or or are not willing to conform to them? Thus my Man vs Male question. If someone refers to them self as a "Man" is it societies responsibility to conform the definition to fit them, or is it their responsibility to either meet the requirements of the title or choose another one? In this case, "Male".

It seems to me that some of the complaints are not the complaints with being "Male" in society but rather a "Man" or "Manly" expectations. I just find it absurd that some will declare them selves a "Man" but whine about "Manly" expectation society places on them. Simple solution, stop misrepresenting themselves as a "Man" and just say "Male".

In my view having a separate sub-gender for men within the male gender will solve many of the problems without having to drag all males down the same path. Many men are satisfied with being "Men" and apparently some are not.

Don't get me wrong there are serious offenses placed against males in today's hyper feminized society, I just feel we are splitting hairs when people are making complainants such as people expecting them to like or play sports.
I mean come on, really?!

 

[Alex1508]

"today's hyper feminized society" can someone explain to me what ppl are reffering to when they use this term? As in, for example, what are the traits of this feminized society?

 

[piketheguy]

heres the thing, once you hit 30, NONE OF THIS SHIT MATTERS, any adult who lets this random bullshit get to them really should learn to let it go. The real problems male face? Prostate cancer. Thats a real thing you should worry about, what any other person on this planet thinks about you, does not fucking matter, so fuck em. For all you guys 29 and under, listen to the old geezer who remembers dial-up and when gatorade came in glass bottles, none of this social crap about men and women matter to anyone. The majority of the population of this world only care about making enough money to be comfortable and if their family is taken care of. Thats it.

 

[Thaluikhain]

heres the thing, once you hit 30, NONE OF THIS SHIT MATTERS, any adult who lets this random bullshit get to them really should learn to let it go. The real problems male face? Prostate cancer. Thats a real thing you should worry about, what any other person on this planet thinks about you, does not fucking matter, so fuck em. For all you guys 29 and under, listen to the old geezer who remembers dial-up and when gatorade came in glass bottles, none of this social crap about men and women matter to anyone. The majority of the population of this world only care about making enough money to be comfortable and if their family is taken care of. Thats it.

Well, excepting, say, men who are physically attacked for not fitting the norm.

 

[piketheguy]

so lets talk about physical assault then, fight back. If you get beat down and it happens to all guys, you never win all fights (which is actually a good argument to stay in shape and learn to defend yourself) pick yourself up and make a plan to prevent that happening again. Call the cops, cuz thats an option, but that should not be your plan. Your plan whould be how to win the next fight NOT how to AVOID the fight, but how to win.

If you want to make the argument you cant fight back if you are dead, take some advice from someone with eight years in the military, death is coming for everyone, there is absolutely NOTHING you can do about death, its going to happen to everyone, and is NOT something you can ever plan to stop.

 

[Simonism451]

"today's hyper feminized society" can someone explain to me what ppl are reffering to when they use this term? As in, for example, what are the traits of this feminized society?

I think the existence of tumblr is example enough, no?

You're right, gifs are so faggy.

 

[Erttheking]

"today's hyper feminized society" can someone explain to me what ppl are reffering to when they use this term? As in, for example, what are the traits of this feminized society?

I think the existence of tumblr is example enough, no?

You're right, gifs are so faggy.

Do they still put gifs on tumblr? I thought it was all just Gender Studies majors and other members of the Future Baristas of America ranting about the depredations of the patriarchy.

.

That's a stereotype. Trust me, I've explored tumblr a fair bit. If it was all screaming about the patriarchy there wouldn't be so much porn

 

[Thaluikhain]

"today's hyper feminized society" can someone explain to me what ppl are reffering to when they use this term? As in, for example, what are the traits of this feminized society?

I think the existence of tumblr is example enough, no?

You're right, gifs are so faggy.

Do they still put gifs on tumblr? I thought it was all just Gender Studies majors and other members of the Future Baristas of America ranting about the depredations of the patriarchy.

It's more weird porn and celebrities spouting gibberish.

Even if there was a site used by people unhappy with the patriarchy, not sure why we should think society as a whole was feminised.

 

[Simonism451]

"today's hyper feminized society" can someone explain to me what ppl are reffering to when they use this term? As in, for example, what are the traits of this feminized society?

I think the existence of tumblr is example enough, no?

You're right, gifs are so faggy.

Do they still put gifs on tumblr? I thought it was all just Gender Studies majors and other members of the Future Baristas of America ranting about the depredations of the patriarchy.

It's more weird porn and celebrities spouting gibberish.

Even if there was a site used by people unhappy with the patriarchy, not sure why we should think society as a whole was feminised.

And a whole lot of teenage girls infatuated with anime versions of Nazi Germany. Tumblr's weird in a whole lot of ways the average internet person doesn't even get to see.