Problems that men have to deal with

[Suhi89]

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You ask which definition of feminism gave the following quotes. Perhaps you could help answer the question by crediting who you are quoting.

That's really my bad, I thought I'd put them in. The answers are, Robin Morgan, Valerie Solanas, Andrea Dworkin, Susan Brownmiller and the Wikipedia page for the Duluth Model in that order.

I want to repeat, I have nothing against feminism as a whole. I think advancing the rights of women is a fantastic cause. I just don't think that feminism is particularly interested in advancing the rights of men. I don't it has to, any more than the gay rights movement needs to advance the rights of straight people, but it's disingenuous to suggest that feminism is about helping men as much as women and that only through feminism can men's issues be solved, or that feminist issues and men's issues overlap entirely on the Venn diagram.

The quotes just go to show that at least part of the feminist movement is in fact anti-male and that maybe it's fair that men want their own organisations to work for them, especially given the hostility bringing up men's issues in many feminist spaces will bring.

 

[mecegirl]

snip

You ask which definition of feminism gave the following quotes. Perhaps you could help answer the question by crediting who you are quoting.

That's really my bad, I thought I'd put them in. The answers are, Robin Morgan, Valerie Solanas, Andrea Dworkin, Susan Brownmiller and the Wikipedia page for the Duluth Model in that order.

I want to repeat, I have nothing against feminism as a whole. I think advancing the rights of women is a fantastic cause. I just don't think that feminism is particularly interested in advancing the rights of men. I don't it has to, any more than the gay rights movement needs to advance the rights of straight people, but it's disingenuous to suggest that feminism is about helping men as much as women and that only through feminism can men's issues be solved, or that feminist issues and men's issues overlap entirely on the Venn diagram.

The quotes just go to show that at least part of the feminist movement is in fact anti-male and that maybe it's fair that men want their own organisations to work for them, especially given the hostility bringing up men's issues in many feminist spaces will bring.

I think part of the problem is that you are arguing against people that can't argue against you. Robin Morgan is 73. Valerie Solanas is dead. Andrea Dworkin is dead. Susan Brownmiller is 78. Do you even know of any contemporary "anti-male" feminist examples? Or any contemporary feminists at all? I'm only asking since you seem willing to discuss the topic. Because every time "anti male" feminists are brought up its either dead White women, old White women, or boogywomen from tumblr.

 

[Theodora]

*Sigh* You know there's kind of a generally "accepted" mindset of what a man should be in society, at least in the united states. We're supposed to be tough, we're supposed to be crude, we're not supposed to get upset at anything, we're supposed to play sports and we don't do "girly" shit, because obviously we're gay if we do.

IMHO, and this will sound vaguely conspiratorial, but I'm of the opinion society goes to great lengths to police the male gender. Ideally done under the auspicious of a Greater Good, male gender norms are heavily policed in ways that are conceived as "good," in terms of utilitarian purposes. For example, Socially Accepted male interests like being a sports fan, gear head (car enthusiast), aviation buff, ect these types of socially approved interests either involve tacit distractions like sports which occupy people with trivial things OR are things that become useful jobs OR drive one to consume goods that have a planned obsolescence. Men in Otaku spaces or just generally geeky/nerdy men are not considered true "men," because they are not focusing their interests on things that make them a utility to society. I.E. future husbands, or corporate go-getters.

Geeky stuff are culturally atypical interests and society generally doesn't like that. Males involved in these interests are thus routinely vilified as folk devils. Right now there exists a vast moral panic about Otaku males as evil misogynist devils. Even though plenty of women also exist in Otaku spaces which I think is the cause of some of this moral panic. There is a threat that this culture could gain social acceptance and if males have no punishment for absconding traditional gender norms, more of them might throw off the shackles and chains so to speak.

If males don't focus themselves on being that ideal "hard worker," who goes out and participates in the traditional economy and then marries and or produces children, I.E. serving social utilitarian purposes he is nearly universally reviled.

When you go down to the root of so many of these problems, they're all about proving masculinity. They're all about doing that TO NOT BE FEMININE - and it's about the fear of being feminine. Why? Because being feminine is bad. That's what society teaches us. Therefore only the worst sort of man would be feminine, right? So men grow up with this huge burden, and that burden is lablled Don't Be Girly.

I disagree on the efficacy of modern Feminism to currently address the issue you present, and contest your characterization. Feminism IMHO now largely serves a conservative and even reactionary purpose of policing men INTO traditional gender norms. Males who do express atypical interests and habits are vilified even by feminists. Males existing outside the culturally accepted framework of utilitarian masculinity are demonized and currently there is even a sort of witch hunt claiming the whole of males in Otaku culture to be irredeemably "misogynists." Even though these culturally atypical interests often involve expressing habits and customs that are considered traditionally feminine.

MORE over central ideas about gender are really overthrown these days. For example the persistent meme in Anglophonic countries that credits women with insight, intuition, and access to deeper things, and men with reason, clarity, and logic isn't truly undermined ever. Simply masculine traits are declared toxic and feminine traits declared pure. An example is Anita Sarkesian criticizes games that have female protagonists but those protagonists have "male traits," or perform as one would expect a "male," to perform. Also the idea that men lack empathy and intuition. Or within academia when Feminist scholars criticized the sciences for their clinging to "logic and reason," as being essentializing of masculine hegemony and the lack of intuition made the sciences toxic and misogynistic.

TL'DR

Male gender norms are held in place by many, including many feminists because it is widely seen as being for the "greater good." IMHO these gender norms won't be challenged simply because to many people and too many power structures in society depend on its survival.

 

[Spearmaster]

fair point.

I think the issue is that there are perceptions and that, in order to not conform to them, a person must be willing to fight for their entire life.

You might find the concept of micro-aggression and how it maintains cultural standards interesting.

Regardless, while I agree with you that a simple shift in perception is useful and could stop a lot of hurt feelings, it is sadly much easier said than done. When there is no dialogue, people feel isolated. Dialogue can create a sense that a least you are not alone. In accepting that you don't fit within the dominant paradigm for accepted behaviour, not feeling alone is worth a lot.

For this reason, I do see the distinguishing between man and male as premature here. Venting and support are two things that allow people to defy social norms. As I interpret the OP, that is what he is trying to do... to see if he is not out to lunch and foolish. That in defying extremely strict standards of social conduct, that what he is doing and feeling are not wrong.

I could be mistaken, this is just how I view the purpose of this thread.

josh

Post Note: I have traveled extensively and have only just returned to my country of birth after living abroad for ten years. I find that Western culture says to be yourself, but uses social aggression to force people to be themselves within strict delineated areas. If getting a few people to back him up so that it is easier for him to happy with the stats nature rolled him is all he needs, I for one support the OP and the thread.

Venting and support are crucial to dealing with the social pressures but part of support should be looking over possible solutions. It may be premature to enact anything but its never to early to open a dialog about possible solutions to the torment many males are facing. Venting establishes the problem, support gets individuals an emotional up-lift to get them by but its far from a solution. I'm not claiming my ideas are the only solution or even a good solution, just that we should be formulating sensible solutions. Otherwise we could just become the insular hug-boxes that many complain about.

 

[Proto Taco]

Snip

Snip

I'm going to ignore the fact that the majority of both of those responses were more personal attacks than actual arguments and try to glean your argument from it.

"Men have problems as big or bigger than women's problems. Stop cramping our style with your 'feminism'."

Now I don't deny men have problems. Everyone has problems, men included. The reason I even posted here in the first place is because a common trend I see is men regaling the world with tales of masculine woe without actually doing anything about it.

You want to be taken seriously about rape? Stop joking about it with your buddies. No, as one of you so blithely pointed out, jokes do not cause rape, but they do normalize it. If you joke about something it makes it colloquial and familiar which both makes it easier to perpetrate and harder to talk about because you've minimized it in your mind and the minds of those around you by trivializing it.

If you want to be able to wear clothing that's fancy and varied, and masculine? Just do it. Go buy a utilikilt or create a manly dress, and just make it happen. Women didn't earn the social norm of wearing pants by complaining about only having skirts to wear and then never actually wearing pants. Women started actually wearing pants, and yes, they did take heat for it. So, you want to have fun masculine clothing? Wear it, make it happen, and don't mock other men who are trying to do so (here's looking at you 'manpurse' jokes).

If you want to be treated as a kind, sensitive, gentle individual, and not a stoic machine, then don't tease guys who confide in each other with gay jokes.

I realize not every man does all three of the things I listed above, and I'm well aware there's probably a fair share who don't do any of them. But they're just examples that are emblematic of a larger problem. I could list further examples for pages, but that would be overdrawing it on a public internet forum.

I will also add, that as a trans individual I've lived on both sides of the gender fence; both male and female, and I can tell you without any hint of irony that while men's problems feel grievous because they're all you know, women's problems are still far worse. I'm not going to waste any more time justifying that to you both because as one of you so astutely pointed out, that's not the purpose of this forum, but if you bother to look the evidence is there.

In closing I would simply like to be clear that it's not the act of acknowledging men's problems that irks me. What irks me is that men's problems are cheapened by people using them to devalue other, larger, problems. When men's problems are used to redirect conversations away from a systematic global oppression of women, it reduces both men's problems, and any attempt to fairly juxtapose them to women's problems, to campaign-level slander.

Men deserve to have their problems acknowledged and dealt with, but not at the expense of the other half of the population.

 

[mecegirl]

I love this lady.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7yKrzHAGj2c
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N_MxS7A5nws

Though stuff like that is what makes me roll my eyes at gendered expectations for dress, especially as it pertains to men in western culture. It's all dependent on the current culture, what would be considered too feminine for men now used to be in style.

 

[Deadcyde]

there's a blog by a FTM transsexual about the main thing that men have to deal with. It generally comes down to responsibility of active agency if i remember correctly. It's worth a read if anyone can find it.

At least that's something all men have to deal with, otherwise I'm sure every guy (like every girl) has unique circumstances to deal with but gendering them would likely be disingenuous.

 

[RandV80]

I love this lady.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7yKrzHAGj2c
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N_MxS7A5nws

Though stuff like that is what makes me roll my eyes at gendered expectations for dress, especially as it pertains to men in western culture. It's all dependent on the current culture, what would be considered too feminine for men now used to be in style.

Meh, regardless of how we got here women+fashion=insanity. People should be able to wear what they want and a sense of fashion to a certain degree is an elusive but admirable trait, but the simplicity and utilitarian nature of the common male dress should be cherished.

Be honest with yourself, if you were living with a guy you wouldn't really want to share that closet & dresser space 50/50 would you? In my relationship ship we're looking at probably an 80/20 split, and lets not even bother getting into bathroom & shower space!

 

[Itdoesthatsometimes]

snip

You ask which definition of feminism gave the following quotes. Perhaps you could help answer the question by crediting who you are quoting.

That's really my bad, I thought I'd put them in. The answers are, Robin Morgan, Valerie Solanas, Andrea Dworkin, Susan Brownmiller and the Wikipedia page for the Duluth Model in that order.

Found your answer:

Radical feminism is a perspective within feminism that focuses on the hypothesis of patriarchy as a system of power that organizes society into a complex of relationships based on the assertion that male supremacy oppresses women. Radical feminism aims to challenge and overthrow patriarchy by opposing standard gender roles and oppression of women and calls for a radical reordering of society.

source http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Radical_feminism
The neutrality of the page is in dispute though

Classified as Radical/second-wave feminist:
Robin Morgan, your first quote-from (I am not quite sure I have not been able to track down a definitive source.)
Andrea Dworkin, third quote-from Pornography: Men possessing Women, Dworkin 1979 [P.48]
Susane Brownmiller, fourth quote-from http://www.susanbrownmiller.com/susanbrownmiller/html/against_our_will.html

Not Classified, though affiliated (by my own assessment):
Valarie Solanas, Your second quote-from SCUM Manifesto, Solanas 1967 [P.1]
the Duluth Model, fifth quote-from Criminal Investigation (8th ed.), Bennett,Hess 2006 [P. 281]

 

[mecegirl]

Be honest with yourself, if you were living with a guy you wouldn't really want to share that closet & dresser space 50/50 would you? In my relationship ship we're looking at probably an 80/20 split, and lets not even bother getting into bathroom & shower space!

I don't have that many clothes, and my dress style is generally simple(mostly solid colors and graphic prints, but rarely anything frilly), so I might not be the right woman for that question. Of course I don't work in a profession where a lot of dressy clothing is necessary, so that may be why I never got into the habit as an adult. But in general a t-shirt and jeans, or a simple dress works for me. I do have a lot of jewelry and hair products to a separate sink would be a must.

 

[WhiteNachos]

Snip

Snip

I'm going to ignore the fact that the majority of both of those responses were more personal attacks than actual arguments and try to glean your argument from it.

"Men have problems as big or bigger than women's problems. Stop cramping our style with your 'feminism'."

Now I don't deny men have problems. Everyone has problems, men included. The reason I even posted here in the first place is because a common trend I see is men regaling the world with tales of masculine woe without actually doing anything about it.


You want to be taken seriously about rape? Stop joking about it with your buddies.
No, as one of you so blithely pointed out, jokes do not cause rape, but they do normalize it. If you joke about something it makes it colloquial and familiar which both makes it easier to perpetrate and harder to talk about because you've minimized it in your mind and the minds of those around you by trivializing it.

Prove it.

And I know it's anecdotal but my experience says the opposite. Making a topic less taboo to joke about makes it less taboo to talk about seriously.

 

[Baron Teapot]

One in every two men will get cancer in their lifetime. We do focus a lot on breast cancer, and fail to realize that this money is not pooled for all cancers; charities must compete with one another, and this is insane; they're all aiming for the same thing - a world without cancer.

To me, a true man is someone who endures, without ever giving up. True men work hard to achieve or protect that which they love. The difference between a man and a child is that a man does, while a child talks about doing. It may seem like a vague definition, but I don't limit masculinity to certain superficial traits; you can be a strong man regardless of your sexuality, build, height or outward appearance. What matters is your character, for a man stands by his convictions.

That's my idea of manliness, and it's what I try to remember. I don't feel ashamed to discuss my feelings because I'm not afraid of them. I'm not afraid to order so-called girly drinks because I'm comfortable with my sexuality. I don't need to convince other men that I'm masculine enough - such things are inconsequential.

 

[Frankster]

snip

You're going to just ignore the content of our posts full stop and build a nice looking strawman because it's convenient for your internal narrative to do so and might even have forced you to address the uncomfortable truth that I (leaving the other poster out of this, we ain't a tag team) might actually have had some valid points in between the rhetoric. I suppose it's easier to just call the person your arguing with a big meany.

You say you want to attempt to glean arguments from my posts but I don't know how much clearer I can be with you:

You keep projecting attitudes onto people that they don't have and never even hinted they had all because of your own stereotypes and an agenda unrelated to the topic at hand. You are walking around in a thread about guy problems saying that they should basically shut up and talk about womens problems instead cos they always have it worst (what is the original name of this Gaza argument? Fallacy of relative privation? W/e, point being that it's the basis of your posts). As I said you probably wouldn't approve if someone walked into a womens problems thread, or a transpersons thread, telling others to put a sock in it cos x has it worst and they should instead talk about x despite thread having nothing to do about x. Oppression olympics isn't the main topic here but by god, you certainly try your hardest to make it about that and in our conversations so far have been consistently using it as a smokescreen.

I mean shit what is the argument you say you're gleamed?

"Men have problems as big or bigger than women's problems. Stop cramping our style with your 'feminism'."

Except that is not it and never has been anything else then a strawman you keep throwing at my face. I thought this part was pretty clear: "And who the fuck said that in this thread? Who's the person here saying men have it worst then women?"

Also again, you project. You don't know what the fuck my opinion is regarding feminism ¬¬
Or my general opinion on gender issues for that matter.

I'd rather you make personal attacks on me tbh then keep being this evasive or shoving opinions into me I don't have and never ever had in my life.

"The reason I even posted here in the first place is because a common trend I see is men regaling the world with tales of masculine woe without actually doing anything about it."

Cool story that totally justifies shitting up a thread with unrelated topics and opinions because you have a chip on your shoulder even if you can't point to a single example in this thread of a poster acting the way you describe. If anything the trend is more towards the opposite.

I don't know how I got dragged into the rape topic or the other stuff you bring up, let alone how you're able to infer my attitudes on those topics. I'll be polite and assume they are purely addressed at WhiteNachos. Then again it is consistent with how I'm accusing you of projecting your very particular viewpoints onto people regardless of their actual stances and using these long winded statements on general gender issues as a smokescreen.
Ok I'll keep this in mind for my next paragraph then.

Being trans doesn't mean you're an authority on men and women worldwide anymore then you're an authority on men and women in just your home country. Or even just trans people for that matter, though of course you would certainly be able to relate to their stories easier then someone like me.
You've lived a life with a particular viewpoint and challenges unique to your situation and person, you are an expert on yourself, nothing more. This is something that goes for a lot of people it's true (in this thread mr "im 30 years old and once you're 30 this shit doesnt matter!" or mr "id hate to deal with other guys feelings" comes to mind, nevermind that in my time working in a mental health clinic older males well over 30 were consistently amongst our most problematic cases) but you're the one I'm arguing with atm.
You don't know jack shit about me or my life or most people you stereotype and you being trans, female, male or a friggin extraterrestial doesn't change that.
And no I don't mean that in a "i got it sooo bad man, weep for me" way but in the sense that I lived an atypical life it seems and find it hard to relate to a lot of the male stereotypes thrown around. Ex: I've only ever once in my life been in a posse of male friends, otherwise most of my friends have always been female and I've always just seemed to befriend women easier for w/e reason. The only people I know who make rape jokes and laugh about them are women, and they are anti feminists so I doubt me telling them off about it is going to be effective and tbh I don't think I should be policing them anyways, I rather work on my own behavior. Actually it's funny because the trans people I know wouldn't agree with what you said and one trans friend in particular has the most wicked sense of humor of anyone I know, but then again I have no idea if they or you are more representative of the average transpersons view on this topic and honestly, it shouldn't matter in the first place if you were making good arguments, which you ain't. To avoid further hurt feelings on a rather delicate topic I'll end it on that but I really do find your stance extremely arrogant.

"In closing (...) to campaign-level slander."

In closing I feel based on our interaction in this thread that you're somewhat of a hypocrite whose actions and statements are at odds with some of the high ideals you preach and would like others to live up to, and have a tendency to stereotype and use your personal experiences as indisputable gospel. I would have liked to express this as something else then a personal attack but don't see how I can, its not your feminist ideals that I'm disagreeing with after all but the way YOU personally act and there is no easy way to sugarcoat it that I can see.

I guess me and you just ain't meant to get along. All right buddy I'll leave you be, this back and forth went nowhere and just clogs up the thread. I hope it at least provides some lulz to others.

 

[Suhi89]

snip

You ask which definition of feminism gave the following quotes. Perhaps you could help answer the question by crediting who you are quoting.

That's really my bad, I thought I'd put them in. The answers are, Robin Morgan, Valerie Solanas, Andrea Dworkin, Susan Brownmiller and the Wikipedia page for the Duluth Model in that order.

I want to repeat, I have nothing against feminism as a whole. I think advancing the rights of women is a fantastic cause. I just don't think that feminism is particularly interested in advancing the rights of men. I don't it has to, any more than the gay rights movement needs to advance the rights of straight people, but it's disingenuous to suggest that feminism is about helping men as much as women and that only through feminism can men's issues be solved, or that feminist issues and men's issues overlap entirely on the Venn diagram.

The quotes just go to show that at least part of the feminist movement is in fact anti-male and that maybe it's fair that men want their own organisations to work for them, especially given the hostility bringing up men's issues in many feminist spaces will bring.

I think part of the problem is that you are arguing against people that can't argue against you. Robin Morgan is 73. Valerie Solanas is dead. Andrea Dworkin is dead. Susan Brownmiller is 78. Do you even know of any contemporary "anti-male" feminist examples? Or any contemporary feminists at all? I'm only asking since you seem willing to discuss the topic. Because every time "anti male" feminists are brought up its either dead White women, old White women, or boogywomen from tumblr.

I don't see it as a problem because I'm not arguing against feminism in general, I'm pointing out that there is a least part of the feminist movements that is explicitly anti-male. I don't hold that against mainstream feminism, but the post I was replying to claimed that the Venn diagram for men's issues and issues feminism cares about overlap completely.

The problem I have with the argument that men who have problems should turn to feminism is that it doesn't usually help them in their situation. If their victims of domestic abuse, it won't help them to read those quotes above. If they try to post their problems on somewhere like r/feminism, they're likely to get shouted down or banned. Feminist organisations such as Women's Aid campaign against giving more resources to male victims of DV (probably because they're scared that the resources for those victims will come from their own funding).

So again, I'm behind feminism, I think it's goals are good but I think any help that it brings to men is as a side effect rather than a major goal and it's unhelpful to tell men who need help that feminism is the answer.

In terms of contemporary feminists, the only feminists I read are either on forums like this one or above the line on websites like the Guardian. I find them to be a mixed bag. Some come across as at the very least hostile to men, whereas others I agree with almost completely.

I'd be happy to check out any suggestions you'd like to make.

 

[TransGamer]

This thread is adorable and I can't believe I didn't find it sooner.

 

[Dizchu]

It's pretty frustrating when discussion about men's problems devolve into "feminists hate men" and "men have it tough because feminists think it's a crime to be a man/are trying to make men more effeminate". It's horrible because men actually have as many problems as women, but you get these same men complaining about the incoming "matriarchy" or whatever and making all men's problems look like a joke as a result.

It's pretty tragic to be honest.

Not to say it doesn't happen with women too, once a woman claims to have PTSD from internet trolling that kinda gives the impression that women are privileged idiots (to those that wish to paint with broad strokes).

 

[ACman]

When I do have a "girly" drink im like "damn this shit is tasty"

I know all my guy friends are hella jealous whenever I rock up with a flirtini or a strawberry daiquiri.

That shit is delicious.

Damn kids. The only good girly cocktails are Amaretto Sours and Sunburnt Senoritas. Or if you have to go the blended fruit daquiri route... go mango. Strawberries are for ice cream.

 

[Riot3000]

snip

I cosign with Theodora that the current society is still very entrenched in keeping traditional male gender norms intact.

In my view i can not take the we are living in a "hyper feminized society" comment seriously I believe society is still adamant about traditional male roles and how they interact with females.

This is why the whole feminist are attacking "masuclinity" or making men more effeminate is ridiculous because like Theo mentioned most "feminist" are good for shaming guys the stray from the masculine ideal just not with words like "man up".

Again this is trying to turn into a left vs right thing but for and maybe some others who feel this way all comes off like ending of Animal Farm no difference what so ever.

 

[Theodora]

snip

I cosign with Theodora that the current society is still very entrenched in keeping traditional male gender norms intact.

In my view i can not take the we are living in a "hyper feminized society" comment seriously I believe society is still adamant about traditional male roles and how they interact with females.

This is why the whole feminist are attacking "masculinity" or making men more effeminate is ridiculous because like Theo mentioned most "feminist" are good for shaming guys the stray from the masculine ideal just not with words like "man up".

Again this is trying to turn into a left vs right thing but for and maybe some others who feel this way all comes off like ending of Animal Farm no difference what so ever.

Even as Feminists criticize "toxic masculinity," they merely ascribe Masculinities defined traits an inferior status to Femininity and its traits. HOWEVER they rarely do or take actions to oppose males behaving in Masculine ways. For example the campaign "HeForShe," is patronizingly Gender Traditionalists. Males must "stand up," and protect women. A fairly standard old fashioned trope that Feminists regularly take in without even giving it a passing thought.

The thing Feminists seem most agitated about Are gender Atypical males and gender Atypical females occupying a counter-cultural space (Geekdom). Feminists are up in arms over freely depicted sexuality and sex, men liking My Little Pony, and controlling male behavior but the central dynamic that males must enjoy a narrow dimension of activities that also happen to have economic utility towards society at large is always rigorously enforced.

The saying "Women need men like fish need a bicycle," is very telling of the mentality that has emerged and just how gender normative it is and how conservative it is. The Male in that pithy saying IS a machine. Not a living organism with intrinsic value whose life on some level deserve to be respected but an unfeeling, soulless machine whose value is measured in purely mechanical, economic, and utilitarian terms and has zero intrinsic value. The Feminist view of maleness is curiously conservative as it mirrors the Social Conservative and Trad-Con view of Maleness. Or at least of Maleness of the vast majority of males. I cannot recall it but on Fox News I believe Tucker Carlson proclaimed males "Gain value and purpose by TAKING ON responsibility for others," which seems to be the tacitly accepted view point of a great many feminists. Thus their attitudes are to create "HeForShe," and other such ideals.

Though by no means should anyone call me an Anti-Feminist. My view is that the mission of breaking Gender Norms has been dangerously compromised, however I am not fond of say MRA groups as MANY of them buy into socially conservative and highly religious mindsets. They due not question the gender dynamic or the power structures OF IT, they simply wish to shuffle who is considered on top. Much as Feminists looked at the towering prison of Gender Norms and rather then reduce the structure to rubble, simply shuffled the administrative staff and who had what.

 

[Itdoesthatsometimes]

When I do have a "girly" drink im like "damn this shit is tasty"

I know all my guy friends are hella jealous whenever I rock up with a flirtini or a strawberry daiquiri.

That shit is delicious.

Damn kids. The only good girly cocktails are Amaretto Sours and Sunburnt Senoritas. Or if you have to go the blended fruit daquiri route... go mango. Strawberries are for ice cream.

Do you like PIna Coladas?
And a good Bahama Mama is a mouth orgasm.
I want to try this Sunburnt Senorita, now.

And I could make you a Rumrunner or a Mai Tai, that will out right make you cry man or woman. My recipes are by far more Dan Praper, than Charlotte York Goldenblatt. By the way do not go out to the bar and order a Rumrunner or a Mai Tai, not because it seems girly, but because their recipe is garbage.

Just to brag, not much bearing on the conversation, I make the best Margaritas as well.