Prolific "video games make you bad" researcher exposed as planning to refuse to publish his work if it doesn't show video game make you bad + mor

Dwarvenhobble

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Well for one thing, I don't diligently study people I don't agree with. She raised unpopular, but pertinent, questions about the biases present in our entertainment. Her examples werent amazing and her videos were not engaging, as charisma is important for a video essay format. As such, I never watched another thing she put out. Marked it up as not for me and moved the fuck on.
I watched them because I hoped there would be something of worth in her output, a few times she's came close then swerved off into Bell Hook's esc theories about how women were a separate social class or such like.



You're right, but I suspect not in the way you think you are.
nah or he'd be here right now lol
 

Elijin

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It's a legit question to ask. It's something that FIFA players asked when they brought that possibility into it. The easiest answer is that FIFA is supposedly a football simulation game and thus you couldn't realistically put women's teams against the men's, and the technical reason is that the player rating that these games have had since forever is balanced for men, and no matter how much you want it you can't put Alex Morgan against Messi and expect a good result. She clearly isn't asking for the abolishment of women's categories. Sure as we can expect she'd like there to be less segregation but if women want to compete they need their own competitions. Saying otherwise just means that one doesn't care about sports, women, or female athletes.
I don't really get this in the field (hahah) of team sports. There are multiple leagues which reflect various skill sets. Athletes move up and down as relevant, with teams paying for the best players they can attract.

Mixed leagues wont automatically come with some mandatory inclusivity quotas. Just like we don't ban athletes by age after adulthood; they keep up until they cant, and drop away from injury or inability to keep up with the 19 & 20yos.

Mixed leagues will see women who seek to participate make it as far as their personal ability allows, just like their male counterparts
 

McElroy

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In video games it's a legit question because Peach can be as good as Mario or Bowser in tennis, for example.
I don't really get this in the field (hahah) of team sports. There are multiple leagues which reflect various skill sets. Athletes move up and down as relevant, with teams paying for the best players they can attract.

Mixed leagues wont automatically come with some mandatory inclusivity quotas. Just like we don't ban athletes by age after adulthood; they keep up until they cant, and drop away from injury or inability to keep up with the 19 & 20yos.
Mixed leagues will see women who seek to participate make it as far as their personal ability allows, just like their male counterparts
As I said: Saying otherwise just means that one doesn't care about sports, women, or female athletes. I mean not caring in a neutral way, like it's not something you're into so you don't see it like enthusiastic spectators and you don't understand a woman's perspective as a spectator or an athlete. Because if you do care then scrapping 90-100% of professional women's sports seems pretty bad, doesn't it? Like if professional Tennis World Tour was mixed no woman could participate in an ATP-level tournament ever again (unless their qualifying opponent forfeits). The 10% that I'm leaving open would be aim-based sports, because if women shifted their focus that way they could rise to the top. In performance sports it'd be closer to 100% exclusion and the women that tried to break in would most likely break themselves as female physiology doesn't allow to train as hard as males can.

In general, it's easy to find fucked up things in professional sports because of the money and prestige involved but making it a sausage-fest would be detrimental to pretty much everyone.
 

Elijin

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In video games it's a legit question because Peach can be as good as Mario or Bowser in tennis, for example.

As I said: Saying otherwise just means that one doesn't care about sports, women, or female athletes. I mean not caring in a neutral way, like it's not something you're into so you don't see it like enthusiastic spectators and you don't understand a woman's perspective as a spectator or an athlete. Because if you do care then scrapping 90-100% of professional women's sports seems pretty bad, doesn't it? Like if professional Tennis World Tour was mixed no woman could participate in an ATP-level tournament ever again (unless their qualifying opponent forfeits). The 10% that I'm leaving open would be aim-based sports, because if women shifted their focus that way they could rise to the top. In performance sports it'd be closer to 100% exclusion and the women that tried to break in would most likely break themselves as female physiology doesn't allow to train as hard as males can.

In general, it's easy to find fucked up things in professional sports because of the money and prestige involved but making it a sausage-fest would be detrimental to pretty much everyone.
The assertion that mixed leagues means the end of female leagues makes about as much sense as it means forcing all sports to be gender neutral.

None of these ideas exclude the others. People are making assumptions based on the idea that sports are one single homogeneous blob, all or nothing. It's just not true, they're broken into all sorts of brackets to allow people to compete where they feel comfortable / are capable.
 

McElroy

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The assertion that mixed leagues means the end of female leagues makes about as much sense as it means forcing all sports to be gender neutral.

None of these ideas exclude the others. People are making assumptions based on the idea that sports are one single homogeneous blob, all or nothing. It's just not true, they're broken into all sorts of brackets to allow people to compete where they feel comfortable / are capable.
Following things would end (bar some exceptions that I mentioned before): women's professional sports, women competing at the top level, the hopes and dreams of aspiring junior female athletes, almost all visibility that women now have in sports. A big trade-off and for what?

On an hobbyist level you can pick and mix. It doesn't matter that much and people already probably do it when possible. But the thing is that men's leagues are usually already open for the occasional woman seeking a greater challenge. Those are exceptionally rare (Hayley Wickenheiser, Noora Räty in ice hockey for example).
 
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Silvanus

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Ok define the other sexes then
The other categories aren't exactly "other sexes"; they encompass people who don't fit the main categories. The term is intersex.

This would include: people who have the physical characteristics of one sex, but the chromosomes of the other; people who have the genitalia of one sex, but hormones or other bodily characteristics of the other sex; people who have physical characteristics of both sexes, or neither sex.

If you're going to make that kind of example you'd have bee better picking Metals and Non metals.

But to take your examples, the things that aren't Carbon or Iron can be defined with set parameters and qualities.
Yup-- though those parameters and qualities tend to be human-defined. Same for what we're talking about.

yet small differences can make a big change.
Sometimes they do, sometimes they don't. So what? I'm not advocating for abolishing gender-mixed sports. I'm merely saying that the position itself doesn't imply that the speaker also believes that literally no differences exist; that's an exaggeration.

Except again Dr Verma's wasn't the standard matter composition size testing. There's a reason she had to collect her own data to be able to apply the techniques she developed / helped develop to analyse the connections between areas of the brain not merely the size of areas.
This doesn't rebut what I said.

Oh sure her wanting a future of Gender integrated sports totally isn't just her saying she wants to abolish gender divides in sport especially when she talks about it being some future idea ./s
Oh sure me wanting a future of mages in D&D totally isn't just me saying I want to abolish physical fighter classes. /s
 

Trunkage

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The assertion that mixed leagues means the end of female leagues makes about as much sense as it means forcing all sports to be gender neutral.

None of these ideas exclude the others. People are making assumptions based on the idea that sports are one single homogeneous blob, all or nothing. It's just not true, they're broken into all sorts of brackets to allow people to compete where they feel comfortable / are capable.
I would point out that we have been unintentionally naturally selecting certain traits in different sexes. I would say that its going to take a few generations to rectify that
 

Silvanus

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Following things would end (bar some exceptions that I mentioned before): women's professional sports, women competing at the top level, the hopes and dreams of aspiring junior female athletes, almost all visibility that women now have in sports. A big trade-off and for what?
Why would those things end if women's leagues continued to be a thing?
 

Schadrach

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Why would those things end if women's leagues continued to be a thing?
So you want mixed leagues and women's leagues, the problem is there being men's leagues?

Well, at least US football and basketball already have you covered - they're already technically mixed leagues, while the WNBA is a women's only league. So the biggest US sports already do the thing you are calling for?
 

McElroy

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Why would those things end if women's leagues continued to be a thing?
Apparently at some point Elijin snuck in "introducing mixed leagues on top of what exists now" instead of "ending sex segregation in sports". The former is a total moot point without any issues anyway because competitive sports worth people's time would stay segregated. There are instances where different competitions for men and women seem silly and if people wanted to put the work into changing the format it could be done without trashing the event (curling is a pretty good example imo). The danger is that these events could then become 100% male-dominated. Ending sex segregation in sports in my mind would mean that you wouldn't call a woman world champion unless she also beats all men and so on.

All in all, I think the topic is open for discussion. From my point of view as a spectator I'd possibly change few things, but maybe still something. Spectators' ideas have to be weighed against organizers, athletes, coaches, financiers, and a bunch of political views and that's on an event-by-event basis. Like, football (and some other team sports) can have mixed teams until the kids are 12-13 years old with possible exceptions towards better performance (for example a skilled girl wants to play another year in the boys team).
 
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Elijin

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I didn't sneak it in. Certain users were pretending integrated sports meant the end of single gender sports. I pointed out that's a fallacy, and professional sports already exist within a tiered state which eould allowed mixed to exist without dismantling the existing systems completely.


Honestly your example is flawed anyway. The entire pretext is men will always be better than women, so women will never reach the top BUT also women will ignore women's leagues to chase that goal anyway.

Your argument more or less amounts to womens leagues will be unimportant because they'll never be the best, but that argument could already be applied to the existing structure if that's the working mindset.
 

McElroy

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I didn't sneak it in. Certain users were pretending integrated sports meant the end of single gender sports. I pointed out that's a fallacy, and professional sports already exist within a tiered state which eould allowed mixed to exist without dismantling the existing systems completely.

Honestly your example is flawed anyway. The entire pretext is men will always be better than women, so women will never reach the top BUT also women will ignore women's leagues to chase that goal anyway.

Your argument more or less amounts to womens leagues will be unimportant because they'll never be the best, but that argument could already be applied to the existing structure if that's the working mindset.
I feel like I've hit a wall and I'm not even sure where or if we disagree. I follow a lot of professional sports. What that means is I can't make generalizations in good conscience. Like I mentioned Wickenheiser and Räty before, but the circumstances of their breaks in men's teams were completely different and required will from multiple people and the teams that took them.

As a sweeping generalization it's true that gender-integrated sports leagues can be done. The real question to ask is if competition in [x] should be segregated by gender or not. The idea that we could just play by a tier-system is a probably bad one, but if someone sets up a concrete suggestion of a change in an event or a league that could do without its current gender segregation then I for one am willing to hear it. The biggest and most obvious problem to solve is that women would get pushed out of most professional sports without much good getting done.
 

Silvanus

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So you want mixed leagues and women's leagues, the problem is there being men's leagues?
No; I don't see why mixed leagues prevents the existence of other leagues at all.

Apparently at some point Elijin snuck in "introducing mixed leagues on top of what exists now" instead of "ending sex segregation in sports". The former is a total moot point without any issues anyway because competitive sports worth people's time would stay segregated.
You don't think any women at all could compete to the same level as men in any physical sports? That seems.... to be taking sexual dimorphism too far. We're not anglerfish or mantids.
 

McElroy

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You don't think any women at all could compete to the same level as men in any physical sports? That seems.... to be taking sexual dimorphism too far. We're not anglerfish or mantids.
Give me an event and I will tell you how far the top women in the world can compete against men. Wickenheiser is the GOAT in women's ice hockey and she played in Finland's 3rd-division league in 2003. 23 games, scoring 2 goals and adding 10 assists, making her a below-average forward. After her team qualified for the 2nd-division she could no longer compete. Now imagine a mixed league where 40-something has-been men play with the handful of women who are at the top of their game. Why would a girl take sports seriously if that is the maximum they can ever hope for? Similarly if Serena Williams or Naomi Osaka tried competing in men's tennis they would be routinely beaten out in Grand Slams two rounds before the main event started. Really I must ask what is the proposal anyway or where could any possible benefit be? Now it's a bit unfair of a demand because as things are there isn't anything worth the trade-offs, but what would be a more ideal situation? The phrase "gender integration in sports" means little in practice if I can see a thousand and one downsides.
 
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Silvanus

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Give me an event and I will tell you how far the top women in the world can compete against men.
I don't really think you (EDIT: or I) are an authority on this, so that won't be necessary.

I would say there's a good chance that fewer women train to the same extent and enter sports because all of the most high-profile leagues for major sports are male-only.

Really I must ask what is the proposal anyway or where could any possible benefit be? Now it's a bit unfair of a demand because as things are there isn't anything worth the trade-offs, but what would be a more ideal situation? The phrase "gender integration in sports" means little in practice if I can see a thousand and one downsides.
In my preferred scenario?

Male and female leagues still exist. But high-profile leagues are open for all to try out for, purely on the basis of ability. No official sex-based barrier; if someone's not good enough, they won't make it in.

I don't really see the downside. It's not going to somehow demotivate women from getting into sports, because women's leagues still exist. It simply means they won't be barred from the highest-profile leagues by an arbitrary barrier.
 
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McElroy

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I would say there's a good chance that fewer women train to the same extent and enter sports because all of the most high-profile leagues for major sports are male-only.

Male and female leagues still exist. But high-profile leagues are open for all to try out for, purely on the basis of ability. No official sex-based barrier; if someone's not good enough, they won't make it in.

I don't really see the downside. It's not going to somehow demotivate women from getting into sports, because women's leagues still exist. It simply means they won't be barred from the highest-profile leagues by an arbitrary barrier.
Fair enough. I'd still highlight how important it is to consider events individually. That barrier (when it's in said league's or event's rules) can be arbitrary while being 100% practical at the same time. Sometimes it's not: in 1996 the defending Olympic champion in skeet shooting Zhang Shan couldn't try for a double because the International Shooting Union retired the mixed event and didn't let her into the men's competition. Happened once but it happened anyway.
 

Agema

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If anyone really wanted gender-integrated sports that much, they'd be calling for everyone to have to play Korfball.
 

Dwarvenhobble

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The other categories aren't exactly "other sexes"; they encompass people who don't fit the main categories. The term is intersex.
Phenotypically and neurologically they generally still fit

This would include: people who have the physical characteristics of one sex, but the chromosomes of the other; people who have the genitalia of one sex, but hormones or other bodily characteristics of the other sex; people who have physical characteristics of both sexes, or neither sex.
Which is where neurology can come into play as a deciding factor. Also not to be too pedantic but a number of those conditions result in the person being infertile on a genetic level. To give a comparison a person can be born due to possible mutation or exposure to mutagenic agents missing limbs. Does that mean we should consider the standard images of humans to not have all their limbs?


Yup-- though those parameters and qualities tend to be human-defined. Same for what we're talking about.
Then people need to find something to actually define them by




Sometimes they do, sometimes they don't. So what? I'm not advocating for abolishing gender-mixed sports. I'm merely saying that the position itself doesn't imply that the speaker also believes that literally no differences exist; that's an exaggeration.
Taken with previously mentioned statements it does seem to


This doesn't rebut what I said.
It actually kind of does as the more in doubt research was about matter type and size comparisons while Dr Verma's research hasn't had much solid rebuttal.




Oh sure me wanting a future of mages in D&D totally isn't just me saying I want to abolish physical fighter classes. /s
No however you wanting warrior mage while saying it's a myth there is any real difference between the two does suggest the desire to make the 2 into a single entity.
 

Dwarvenhobble

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I would point out that we have been unintentionally naturally selecting certain traits in different sexes. I would say that its going to take a few generations to rectify that
We've been doing it for so long it's going to be more than a few generations unless you specifically work to select the opposite way.

I mean curvy hips and big boobs have been a desirable trait for a long while possibly even from pre recorded history.
 

Silvanus

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Phenotypically and neurologically they generally still fit
Intersex people? Hardly, unless you really stretch the definitions of the male and female sex to allow almost any traits of the opposite sex.

Which is where neurology can come into play as a deciding factor.
Neurology is one of the least understood areas in terms of gender differentiation. There's a huge amount of research, and countless trends and tendencies have been identified.... but if you show a neuroscientist a single brain image, they will not be able to determine with much certainty whether it's male or female. There's enormous overlap, even in those areas which show differentiation.

Also not to be too pedantic but a number of those conditions result in the person being infertile on a genetic level. To give a comparison a person can be born due to possible mutation or exposure to mutagenic agents missing limbs. Does that mean we should consider the standard images of humans to not have all their limbs?
Why the fuck is that relevant? We're not determining the "standard image". We're describing morphologies that exist.

Then people need to find something to actually define them by
...We have. The umbrella term "intersex" includes various sub-types which have been identified and scientifically described. And scientists usually don't ascribe them as entirely male or female.

It actually kind of does as the more in doubt research was about matter type and size comparisons while Dr Verma's research hasn't had much solid rebuttal.
Why would it? You're expecting rebuttal for a fairly uncontroversial study.

The issue isn't any flaw in Verma's research which requires rebuttal. The issue is that you seem to believe the research indicates something that it doesn't, and that Verma never claimed.


No however you wanting warrior mage while saying it's a myth there is any real difference between the two does suggest the desire to make the 2 into a single entity.
Right, so your analogy is just someone claiming that male and female are exactly the same thing, which nobody is doing and nobody has said. We're back to strawmanning.