Question for the Transgenders here.

[RaikuFA]

Yay we're all friends again *group hug*.

 

[Something Amyss]

So I was listening to an episode of Dogma Debate, and they had Stephanie (I forget her last name), from the youtube channel "thinkstephtically". And she was discussing relationships and intimacy for a trans, transwoman specifically. And she mentioned something that I was vaguely curious about. She mentioned how she isn't attracted to transmen, and is basically only attracted to cisgender men.

Steph has said a lot of things I think a good number of trans individuals would disagree with. Just keep that in mind for the future. I remember actually being taken aback by a couple of her statements.

So I was curious, in general do you as a trans find other trans sexually attractive? Or do you mostly find yourselves attracted to cisgendered people of whatever flavor revs your engine?

Well, I'm pretty sure my flavour is "rainbow," so yes. My current partner is trans, and so have most of my partners, long or short term, since I graduated high school. Part of this may simply come down to the fact that I already like both "male" and "female" parts, so nothing that's between your legs will be a dealbreaker for me. Unless it's tentacles.

[small]ohwhoamikidding[/small]

Yeah, I'm being simplistic. I just don't know how to phrase this in a way that's actually completely inclusive.

So Mars sort of talked about this, but I think it mostly comes down to proximity. I'd say security, except I still have trust issues from being screwed by the trans community in the 90s. So I guess I'm just dumb. But I'm generally around a disproportionately high number of trans individuals, which likely impacts my dating pool quite a bit.

At the end of the day, I'm not trans,

An outsider! Burn the witch!

so I can't claim to know how trans people feel about certain terms, but it takes no effort to listen to them about it.

ohwaityouweresayingsomethinghelpful

Cancel the marshmallows!

Worth pointing out a couple of things on this note, though:

One, you're probably not going to find any term that all of us agree on. My SO is involved in a fight on Tumblr over the use of the word "queer." This is especially awkward for me because I routinely refer to myself as queer (and only myself, for the record), and they seem to be taking the side of people who think even that's bad. Now, you're right, changing diction shouldn't be a big deal. "Oh, I stand corrected" is a valid response and really should be THE response.

Thing is, I've had more than a few trans individuals tell me what I can and can't call myself, just like the "queer" example. Saelune's response may or may not be misplaced here, and I don't care to find out, but it is not entirely misplaced. And I'm not just saying this because I spent the 90s being rejected by people who decided I wasn't "trans" enough because I didn't like pink dresses and playing house.

This is actually what SJW is ostensibly supposed to mean: people who claim to be fighting for social justice, but trample the people in question because it's more about self-righteousness than actually helping people. And this is a real thing. Kind of a shame it's really just a snarl word, and anyone who wants to have female characters in games or gay marriage or for transfolk to be able to pee where we're comfortable is labeled one, then. The unfortunate reality is there are people who are more than happy to dictate things for the rest of us.

I suppose that was technically two. I'm only awake because I was up all night sick and this may be impacting my counting skills.

Finally, there's the euphemism treadmill. For the same reason any term used to describe intellectual disability is likely to become an insult (moron, retard), any diction for a group people don't like is likely to become a slur. It can be exhausting keeping up with what diction is "acceptable," which I suppose circles back around to points one and two.

Maybe when everything else is fine and dandy we can worry about the words, but there are far more important issues, ya know, like not worrying about wanting to use a bathroom.

Just as soon as we figure out how to separate the two....

 

[KyuubiNoKitsune-Hime]

Somewhat true, but ignorance itself has certain connotations as well since it often gets interchangeably used in place of "bigot" to the point that a lot of people legitimately don't know that the word simply means a lack of knowledge.

That's a fair point, there are quite a few people who use "ignorant" as a stand in for "bigot", it's actually gotten to be sort of like "SJW" and "Cuck" in some respects. That is to say words like "bigot" and "ignorant" have nuanced meanings than their common usage, where the common usage is so much of a buzzword that the terms have lost all meaning.

Still, to be fair, I had no real idea "transgenders" had any negative connotations (outside of being grammatically awkward) until I Googled it just now and the results where mostly people rallying against trans people or people quoting others doing so, so I guess what you said is mostly true, if worded slightly poorly.

Well to be clear about it, I've seen quite a few allies who are in the know run afoul using the word "transgenders", heck I've seen transgender people who were unaware of the word and it's usage. So yeah my poor explanation aside, I don't see "trasngenders" used in a positive way much, except by people who aren't paying close attention to trans issues.

 

[Phasmal]

Worth pointing out a couple of things on this note, though:

One, you're probably not going to find any term that all of us agree on. My SO is involved in a fight on Tumblr over the use of the word "queer." This is especially awkward for me because I routinely refer to myself as queer (and only myself, for the record), and they seem to be taking the side of people who think even that's bad. Now, you're right, changing diction shouldn't be a big deal. "Oh, I stand corrected" is a valid response and really should be THE response.

Thing is, I've had more than a few trans individuals tell me what I can and can't call myself, just like the "queer" example. Saelune's response may or may not be misplaced here, and I don't care to find out, but it is not entirely misplaced. And I'm not just saying this because I spent the 90s being rejected by people who decided I wasn't "trans" enough because I didn't like pink dresses and playing house.

This is actually what SJW is ostensibly supposed to mean: people who claim to be fighting for social justice, but trample the people in question because it's more about self-righteousness than actually helping people. And this is a real thing. Kind of a shame it's really just a snarl word, and anyone who wants to have female characters in games or gay marriage or for transfolk to be able to pee where we're comfortable is labeled one, then. The unfortunate reality is there are people who are more than happy to dictate things for the rest of us.

I suppose that was technically two. I'm only awake because I was up all night sick and this may be impacting my counting skills.

Finally, there's the euphemism treadmill. For the same reason any term used to describe intellectual disability is likely to become an insult (moron, retard), any diction for a group people don't like is likely to become a slur. It can be exhausting keeping up with what diction is "acceptable," which I suppose circles back around to points one and two.

Being up all night sucks, hope you feel better!

Yeah, things get complicated when you're talking about groups, because not everyone will agree. For instance, I recently found out that some d/Deaf people find the term 'hearing impaired' to be insulting, whereas I've identified as that for pretty much my whole life (because I only have slight hearing loss, it's hard to know how to portray that to others).

Generally as a rule, I just identify people the way they want to be identified, and if I get corrected about something for a group I'm not a part of, it's not really my place to argue (within reason).

 

[Nazulu]

First off, the term "transgenders" has become derogatory... At best it's used by people who are totally ignorant to trans people, the kind of people who generally don't even understand that trans men exist... Though mostly it's like "the gays" anymore, it's used generally as a dismissive, or fear inducing generalization...

Whoa, whoa, whoa! Are you being serious with this? This is an actual question, not disbelief in what you said.... Though it will become it if you say yes.

Well it's already pretty common to use terms like "gays", "jews", "blacks", "coloureds" as not quite slurs but certainly terms used to demean and dehumanise. As opposed to say "gay people" or "transgender people" or "the trans community". Hell even look at the word "queer" which the community fought to reclaim, still not a good idea to call them "the queers".

Does anyone here just see these as words that depend on context? People always label others to tell them apart regardless, so even if these groups call themselves something else, couldn't that just be used to be demeaning as well? I'm very sure it depends on context.

I didn't even know transgender was an offensive word, and I can't see exactly how when it doesn't even sound like an insulting word. I mean in that it doesn't have that particular sound like 'gay' and '******' do (and even queer), where you see people easily use them over the regular insults (I always thought those words should get a new meaning). So did it become that way because a lot of assholes have said it? Or am I missing a whole lot of history and there is a lot more to it?

This thread looked derailed enough to just ask

 

[Nazulu]

Does anyone here just see these as words that depend on context? People always label others to tell them apart regardless, so even if these groups call themselves something else, couldn't that just be used to be demeaning as well? I'm very sure it depends on context.

I didn't even know transgender was an offensive word, and I can't see exactly how when it doesn't even sound like an insulting word. I mean in that it doesn't have that particular sound like 'gay' and '******' do (and even queer), where you see people easily use them over the regular insults (I always thought those words should get a new meaning). So did it become that way because a lot of assholes have said it? Or am I missing a whole lot of history and there is a lot more to it?

This thread looked derailed enough to just ask

I don't think KyuubiNoKitsune-Hime was saying that "transgender" is offensive. It's using the word "transgenders" to collectively label all trans folk, that's the issue. Like similar to people who say "the blacks". If you say it it doesn't mean you're a bigot by any stretch, you could very well just be ignorant of the cultural context of such phrasing. Because that phrasing is generally only used in a particular context it effects the way the word is viewed. Like slurs, ****** wasn't a homophobic slur until it was. And just because the word had some other use doesn't mean that the cultural understanding of ****** is that it's a hateful word. Language doesn't exist in a vacuum.

Thanks for responding so quick, hope you don't mind the snip.

Ok, I can understand that better. It does have that derogatory sound when you say it like that (transgenders and the blacks). So is saying transgender people alright? If not, what is the label now? Or do some people just not like being labeled? Which I get but we still need something.

 

[Something Amyss]

Well it's already pretty common to use terms like "gays", "jews", "blacks", "coloureds" as not quite slurs but certainly terms used to demean and dehumanise. As opposed to say "gay people" or "transgender people" or "the trans community". Hell even look at the word "queer" which the community fought to reclaim, still not a good idea to call them "the queers".

And the problem therein is that "gay people" is still used in the same fashion as "gays" or "the gays." I think this is actually a remarkably cromulent example.

Queer as well.

Yeah, things get complicated when you're talking about groups, because not everyone will agree. For instance, I recently found out that some d/Deaf people find the term 'hearing impaired' to be insulting, whereas I've identified as that for pretty much my whole life (because I only have slight hearing loss, it's hard to know how to portray that to others).

You too? Fun, innit?

I have atypical hearing loss, which isn't horribly severe, and in most cases has minimal impact on my day-to-day life. Of course part of that may be that I bury my head in headphones when working or otherwise doing something. >.> But yeah, it was fairly recently that I actually ran into the Hard of hearing/hearing impaired thing.

Generally as a rule, I just identify people the way they want to be identified, and if I get corrected about something for a group I'm not a part of, it's not really my place to argue (within reason).

And based on that, I adjusted accordingly. Because honestly, the label means diddly to me, but it apparently is important to a lot of other people. I don't really...I guess it'd be identify...as Hard of Hearing, either as an identity or a culture or whatever. On the other hand, Deaf culture hasn't particularly changed its diction much, despite "deaf" being a general slur/insult/way of mocking people. The main push within the Deaf community tends to be the push to stop it being seen or phrased in terms of disability.

Which, you know, fair enough to them. I see my hearing damage as a disability. Long as they don't tell me how to think about it, though, I don't care. Which, I've never encountered.

Trans language policing, on the other hand, can get really irritating, hence my response to the subject.

 

[Major_Tom]

EDIT!: I'd like to clarify for everyone's benefit that it's the word "transgenders" when used as a plural for all transgender people that's become an issue. "Transgender" as a word hasn't picked up as much of the negative image, because it's been the correct term in the community for so long. "Transgenders" that's the one that has an "s" at the end has become an issue, because it's mostly(but not always), used with a dismissive and derisive tone of voice. It's not a term that I've ever seen used by trans folk, or heavily involved allies either. As far as I can tell the people who coined "transgenders" did so to as to avoid using "transgender people", so they could distance the wording from the fact that trans folk are actually people.

Oh! I didn't get the "s" and thought you were crazy. It's like "blacks", right?

 

[The_State]

As interesting and overwrought as the resulting conversation on this thread is, I'm going to try to address the original topic.

Trans people are often times just like regular people. Mostly because they are regular people. Their sexual taste varies completely based on the individual.

My girlfriend and I are both pre-op transwomen, and while I'm not terribly fond of her penis, she ADORES mine. Fact is I don't like most genitalia, and their existence doesn't factor in for me in terms of attraction. Whereas my ladyfriend is waaaay into transgirls and dates them almost exclusively. And I think that dichotomy kind of highlights a basic conceptual flaw in your query.

The thing about your question is that you're operating on a generalization, you even use the term "generally" in your initial asking. But we, as trans people, only have that one thing in common. Sure some of our experiences in that specific regard might be similar, but aside from that we're all going to be radically different people. Well, I guess it's a fair bet that we're also all into video games on this board. My point is that you're going to get a lot of different responses because the question you're asking doesn't directly correlate to the group you're asking it of.

 

[Nazulu]

As far as I'm aware referring to someone as trans, transgender, trans/transgender man/woman/person is fine. I would imagine in an ideal world where being transgender is finally accepted as just something totally normal we would just refer to trans men and women as men and women. But this is all just what I've gleaned from talking to people. There's people in far better position to talk about this than me in these forums. But to be honest it doesn't cost anything to be nice and supportive. Like @SomethingAmyss said, queer is a good example. Most of my gay friends identify as queer, but one guy in particular actually finds ****** less offensive than queer because even without hate behind the word queer in it's most traditional use means weird so it's a label he resents. So to him ****** became a slur and can be reclaimed easier than queer which is insulting by it's very meaning.

I want to be supportive, but I want it make sense to me as well.

Also, I never found queer to be the nicest of words to label homosexuals either, because I always saw it used to describe weird things too when I was young. It even has that negative sound. I don't jump on anyone for using though, but I do think we need nicer sounding labels for these people while giving the current words other meanings.

 

[Dizchu]

Ughh I'm torn between which side in this derailed discussion to sympathise with. On one hand I don't think referring to transgender people as "transgenders" is the most heinous thing in the world but at the same time the people getting on a soapbox complaining about "those damn SJWs!" because they criticise a certain form of speech is just... depressing.

For anyone that's interested:

It's "transgender people", not "transgenders" in the same way it's "queer people" instead of "queers". It's not the biggest issue in the world but it's still not great. inb4 someone accuses me of censorship and stifling freedom of speech or however the fuck these discussions usually go.

 

[McElroy]

It's "transgender people", not "transgenders" in the same way it's "queer people" instead of "queers". It's not the biggest issue in the world but it's still not great. inb4 someone accuses me of censorship and stifling freedom of speech or however the fuck these discussions usually go.

But in my country we don't call anyone 'people'. And the pronoun I use for this table is the same I use to refer to my grandma and the dog and everything else. I'm not even kidding. We have the ultimate liberty - linguistic liberty! Anyway, they just worked gender identity stuff into the school curriculum a few years ago. Imagine if due to some global sensibility they'd have to add a footnote "remember kids, don't call them transgenders", and soon everyone's back to using the local word for 'tranny'. But this is a small country, anything could happen.

OT: I'm cis-scum and not allowed to comment on this.

 

[McElroy]

Shhh... the Americans, Canadians, the Brits, and the Aussies are pretending to be the center of the world again.

I understand the reason why these discussions here are often America-centric as the biggest and most visible problems seem to be over there. And moreover we're all using English everyday or at least here, so it's important to stay on top of things no matter where you're from (though that's where problems stem from, nobody owns the English language as it's used by all). Nevertheless, I tell the joke when I can.

 

[Objectable]

I hate this website and the stupid argument that came up in this thread is like one big example why.

Anyway, OP, I tend to lean towards trans people more when it comes to being attracted sexually. But even still, sexuality and romance is something so strange and complex that nobody really knows what's going on TBH.

 

[Dizchu]

But in my country we don't call anyone 'people'. And the pronoun I use for this table is the same I use to refer to my grandma and the dog and everything else. I'm not even kidding. We have the ultimate liberty - linguistic liberty! Anyway, they just worked gender identity stuff into the school curriculum a few years ago. Imagine if due to some global sensibility they'd have to add a footnote "remember kids, don't call them transgenders", and soon everyone's back to using the local word for 'tranny'. But this is a small country, anything could happen.

That's a completely different argument though, we're talking about the English language. In Spanish "negro" means "black", as in the colour. In English it's considered an offensive term to refer to black people.

Shhh... the Americans, Canadians, the Brits, and the Aussies are pretending to be the center of the world again.

Would you go to a Japanese messageboard and complain that they think Japan is the "center of the world"?

 

[Something Amyss]

The thing about your question is that you're operating on a generalization, you even use the term "generally" in your initial asking.

Sounds to me like he was looking for a broader understanding by opening up the question to a board he knows has a large trans population.

So yeah, etymologically "transgenders" might not seem offensive but how it's been used has affected it, just like cromulent wasn't a word until a very clever comedy writer got a voice actor to say it and we all collectively went "yep that's a word now." Even if it doesn't appear in the dictionary.

Except I'm not arguing that etymologically, it's not offensive. I was actually arguing that culturally, your own examples are perfect examples of cultural issues with words that you used as alternatives to the culturally offensive ones. That "gay people" is used contextually, culturally, like "gays" and "the gays." That transgender itself is used as a sneer word.

My subpoint would relate to your telling of the word queer:

Like @SomethingAmyss said, queer is a good example. Most of my gay friends identify as queer, but one guy in particular actually finds ****** less offensive than queer because even without hate behind the word queer in it's most traditional use means weird so it's a label he resents.

I'd make a tangential note that I have no problem identifying as weird. My username is Something Amyss not just because I could cram the name "Amy" into it in a name-based pun, but also because I embrace my inner freak. I myself am strange and unusual. I'm a freak, on or off a leash. However, this is more of an aside. People don't like being called queer for that reason? Fine. Long as they don't tell me how I can use language to describe myself.

When I brought up queer earlier in the thread, it was in the context of an argument over whether it could be used at all. Not whether you should call person X queer, or whether it's a term straight people should use on gays, but on whether or not it should be acceptable to use at all. I can no longer, according to a good chunk of both the gay and trans community, call myself queer. Or, more accurately, cannot call myself queer without social repercussions of my self-identification.

I'm in my thirties now, and have watched the language surrounding the trans community evolve. That's fine. I've watched a broader, more blanket understanding of trans individuals evolve. That's beyond fine. It's freaking awesome. When I was growing up, the notion that you could be trans and not want a "sex change," if you'll pardon the term, was almost completely alien. You were "pre-op" or "post-op." So changing that is great. Hell, in the last 6 years, my partner has discovered nonbinary identity and now finally feels there is a category that actually describes them. And that's awesome.

The problem I have, then, is the way some words are actually being policed. "transsexual" is often deemed unacceptable, even if the person feels the label fits them. People who have called themselves genderqueer are under fire because of the notion that "queer" is now an unacceptable word (which i why I chose that specific word, because it impacts both LGB and T individuals). I usually say "trans" or "transfolk" to jump around the issue, but...I know that at some point in the future, assuming someone doesn't murder me for being "queer," those will come under fire, too. Basically, as a term catches on in the mainstream, it will become a slur in some fashion. We're seeing this with transgender already. Worse, because "transgender" is already a clumsy word when used in a descriptive fashion. Kyuubi indicated the best case scenario for "transgenders" was that it was used by people who are totally ignorant to trans people, but I doubt that applies to HappyNinja. In my experience, it's often used by people who don't know how to conjugate "transgender."

Hell, Saelune has used "transgendered" before, and a lot of transfolk don't like that. I'm not saying she's wrong to say it, but I've been yelled at for defending the use of the word by other trans people.

Having been policed before, both on my identity and how I choose to express it, by people in this very thread no less, I think this is a germane issue.

But more specifically, there's an issue here with the notion that "gay people" is somehow socially not going to carry the same baggage as "gays" or "the gays." Especially since the former is still used by gays. I don't know anyone who calls themselves "the gays," but I can point you to a ton of gays, lesbians, and bisexuals who will call themselves "gays," "lesbians" or "bisexuals." Or, I could, if they wanted anything to do with a gaming site. For some reason, there's kind of a stigma about video games and homo/transphobia.

I don't personally know any trans person who uses "transgenders," but I do know plenty of people who have been policed for their "problematic" self-identity. Myself included.

As I said before, this is what a "Social Justice Warrior" ostensibly is: someone who is so progressive they will erase me.

Now, it occurs to me, I don't know anything about you really. Just that I like your Andy Kaufman avatar and a lot of your posts. But I don't know if/what minority groups you might belong to. Could be none. But if you might try, imagine any group you are a part of actively precluding you in the name of progress. I don't know, hopefully I get my point across. My track record is kind of poor, and the answers I've gotten on here effectively boil down to "I don't like being discriminated against or erased from our culture, but it's okay if I do it to others." Do unto others that which you would not want done to you.

Some days, I find the trans community so toxic I really wish I could get out. No, obviously #notalltranspeople, but still.

 

[Something Amyss]

But in my country we don't call anyone 'people'.

Hell, in my neck of the woods, we still say "queers."

And by "we," I specifically mean "queers."

 

[DudeistBelieve]

First off, the term "transgenders" has become derogatory... At best it's used by people who are totally ignorant to trans people, the kind of people who generally don't even understand that trans men exist... Though mostly it's like "the gays" anymore, it's used generally as a dismissive, or fear inducing generalization...

Serious, when did this change happened?

Cause I've been saying that for quite a while now ever since I got corrected.

Good looking out, I learned something. Our language is evolving way to fast.

 

[KyuubiNoKitsune-Hime]

First off, the term "transgenders" has become derogatory... At best it's used by people who are totally ignorant to trans people, the kind of people who generally don't even understand that trans men exist... Though mostly it's like "the gays" anymore, it's used generally as a dismissive, or fear inducing generalization...

Serious, when did this change happened?

Cause I've been saying that for quite a while now ever since I got corrected.

Good looking out, I learned something. Our language is evolving way to fast.

The thing is "transgenders" that's with an "s" at the end is used to avoid saying "transgender people", "trans people", "transgender folk", "trans folk", "transgender community", or "trans community". As best as I can tell it originated with vocal transphobes, as I've never seen a trans person ever use the term, and most trans people are not cool with "transgenders". It's not a change, it's the fact that it's a term that wasn't used to refer to trans people until anti-transgender groups coined it.

 

[DudeistBelieve]

First off, the term "transgenders" has become derogatory... At best it's used by people who are totally ignorant to trans people, the kind of people who generally don't even understand that trans men exist... Though mostly it's like "the gays" anymore, it's used generally as a dismissive, or fear inducing generalization...

Serious, when did this change happened?

Cause I've been saying that for quite a while now ever since I got corrected.

Good looking out, I learned something. Our language is evolving way to fast.

The thing is "transgenders" that's with an "s" at the end is used to avoid saying "transgender people", "trans people", "transgender folk", "trans folk", "transgender community", or "trans community". As best as I can tell it originated with vocal transphobes, as I've never seen a trans person ever use the term, and most trans people are not cool with "transgenders". It's not a change, it's the fact that it's a term that wasn't used to refer to trans people until anti-transgender groups coined it.

Huh... I've only ever used it to save on syllables or because I didn't feel like saying "trans folk" (one of my preferred go to, but occasionally I feel like it gives the tone of my text a unintentional southern twang)... Well good to know, Trans Folk it is exclusively now.