Question for the Transgenders here.

KyuubiNoKitsune-Hime

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Jan 12, 2010
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FirstNameLastName said:
It kind of seems like you're calling the OP "totally ignorant" with that statement. Considering you describe your post as a gentle correction and polite I'm assuming the OP was supposed to exclude themself from the category of "people who use the word transgenders" but there wasn't really anything in your original post suggesting it didn't apply to everyone. Just saying, it seems a lot harsher than you were probably intending it to be.
Yeah I probably should have said that it tends to be used by people who are to some degree ignorant about trans issues. Then again I've only seen the word itself poping up recently, the fact that a lot of trans people are against that particular word is something I've seen even ardent and highly active allies fail to notice. Still that's beside the point, as I've pointed out myself, I often word things badly, despite trying to do the opposite.

I'd also like to point out that ignorance in and of itself also isn't a damning thing, because it can easily be rectified by learning new information.
 

FirstNameLastName

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KyuubiNoKitsune-Hime said:
FirstNameLastName said:
It kind of seems like you're calling the OP "totally ignorant" with that statement. Considering you describe your post as a gentle correction and polite I'm assuming the OP was supposed to exclude themself from the category of "people who use the word transgenders" but there wasn't really anything in your original post suggesting it didn't apply to everyone. Just saying, it seems a lot harsher than you were probably intending it to be.
Yeah I probably should have said that it tends to be used by people who are to some degree ignorant about trans issues. Then again I've only seen the word itself poping up recently, the fact that a lot of trans people are against that particular word is something I've seen even ardent and highly active allies fail to notice. Still that's beside the point, as I've pointed out myself, I often word things badly, despite trying to do the opposite.

I'd also like to point out that ignorance in and of itself also isn't a damning thing, because it can easily be rectified by learning new information.
Somewhat true, but ignorance itself has certain connotations as well since it often gets interchangeably used in place of "bigot" to the point that a lot of people legitimately don't know that the word simply means a lack of knowledge.

Still, to be fair, I had no real idea "transgenders" had any negative connotations (outside of being grammatically awkward) until I Googled it just now and the results where mostly people rallying against trans people or people quoting others doing so, so I guess what you said is mostly true, if worded slightly poorly.
 

Something Amyss

Aswyng and Amyss
Dec 3, 2008
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Happyninja42 said:
So I was listening to an episode of Dogma Debate, and they had Stephanie (I forget her last name), from the youtube channel "thinkstephtically". And she was discussing relationships and intimacy for a trans, transwoman specifically. And she mentioned something that I was vaguely curious about. She mentioned how she isn't attracted to transmen, and is basically only attracted to cisgender men.
Steph has said a lot of things I think a good number of trans individuals would disagree with. Just keep that in mind for the future. I remember actually being taken aback by a couple of her statements.

So I was curious, in general do you as a trans find other trans sexually attractive? Or do you mostly find yourselves attracted to cisgendered people of whatever flavor revs your engine?
Well, I'm pretty sure my flavour is "rainbow," so yes. My current partner is trans, and so have most of my partners, long or short term, since I graduated high school. Part of this may simply come down to the fact that I already like both "male" and "female" parts, so nothing that's between your legs will be a dealbreaker for me. Unless it's tentacles.

[small]ohwhoamikidding[/small]

Yeah, I'm being simplistic. I just don't know how to phrase this in a way that's actually completely inclusive.

So Mars sort of talked about this, but I think it mostly comes down to proximity. I'd say security, except I still have trust issues from being screwed by the trans community in the 90s. So I guess I'm just dumb. But I'm generally around a disproportionately high number of trans individuals, which likely impacts my dating pool quite a bit.

Phasmal said:
At the end of the day, I'm not trans,
An outsider! Burn the witch!

so I can't claim to know how trans people feel about certain terms, but it takes no effort to listen to them about it.
ohwaityouweresayingsomethinghelpful

Cancel the marshmallows!

Worth pointing out a couple of things on this note, though:

One, you're probably not going to find any term that all of us agree on. My SO is involved in a fight on Tumblr over the use of the word "queer." This is especially awkward for me because I routinely refer to myself as queer (and only myself, for the record), and they seem to be taking the side of people who think even that's bad. Now, you're right, changing diction shouldn't be a big deal. "Oh, I stand corrected" is a valid response and really should be THE response.

Thing is, I've had more than a few trans individuals tell me what I can and can't call myself, just like the "queer" example. Saelune's response may or may not be misplaced here, and I don't care to find out, but it is not entirely misplaced. And I'm not just saying this because I spent the 90s being rejected by people who decided I wasn't "trans" enough because I didn't like pink dresses and playing house.

This is actually what SJW is ostensibly supposed to mean: people who claim to be fighting for social justice, but trample the people in question because it's more about self-righteousness than actually helping people. And this is a real thing. Kind of a shame it's really just a snarl word, and anyone who wants to have female characters in games or gay marriage or for transfolk to be able to pee where we're comfortable is labeled one, then. The unfortunate reality is there are people who are more than happy to dictate things for the rest of us.

I suppose that was technically two. I'm only awake because I was up all night sick and this may be impacting my counting skills.

Finally, there's the euphemism treadmill. For the same reason any term used to describe intellectual disability is likely to become an insult (moron, retard), any diction for a group people don't like is likely to become a slur. It can be exhausting keeping up with what diction is "acceptable," which I suppose circles back around to points one and two.

Saelune said:
Maybe when everything else is fine and dandy we can worry about the words, but there are far more important issues, ya know, like not worrying about wanting to use a bathroom.
Just as soon as we figure out how to separate the two....
 

KyuubiNoKitsune-Hime

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Jan 12, 2010
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FirstNameLastName said:
Somewhat true, but ignorance itself has certain connotations as well since it often gets interchangeably used in place of "bigot" to the point that a lot of people legitimately don't know that the word simply means a lack of knowledge.
That's a fair point, there are quite a few people who use "ignorant" as a stand in for "bigot", it's actually gotten to be sort of like "SJW" and "Cuck" in some respects. That is to say words like "bigot" and "ignorant" have nuanced meanings than their common usage, where the common usage is so much of a buzzword that the terms have lost all meaning.

FirstNameLastName said:
Still, to be fair, I had no real idea "transgenders" had any negative connotations (outside of being grammatically awkward) until I Googled it just now and the results where mostly people rallying against trans people or people quoting others doing so, so I guess what you said is mostly true, if worded slightly poorly.
Well to be clear about it, I've seen quite a few allies who are in the know run afoul using the word "transgenders", heck I've seen transgender people who were unaware of the word and it's usage. So yeah my poor explanation aside, I don't see "trasngenders" used in a positive way much, except by people who aren't paying close attention to trans issues.
 

Phasmal

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Jun 10, 2011
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Something Amyss said:
Worth pointing out a couple of things on this note, though:

One, you're probably not going to find any term that all of us agree on. My SO is involved in a fight on Tumblr over the use of the word "queer." This is especially awkward for me because I routinely refer to myself as queer (and only myself, for the record), and they seem to be taking the side of people who think even that's bad. Now, you're right, changing diction shouldn't be a big deal. "Oh, I stand corrected" is a valid response and really should be THE response.

Thing is, I've had more than a few trans individuals tell me what I can and can't call myself, just like the "queer" example. Saelune's response may or may not be misplaced here, and I don't care to find out, but it is not entirely misplaced. And I'm not just saying this because I spent the 90s being rejected by people who decided I wasn't "trans" enough because I didn't like pink dresses and playing house.

This is actually what SJW is ostensibly supposed to mean: people who claim to be fighting for social justice, but trample the people in question because it's more about self-righteousness than actually helping people. And this is a real thing. Kind of a shame it's really just a snarl word, and anyone who wants to have female characters in games or gay marriage or for transfolk to be able to pee where we're comfortable is labeled one, then. The unfortunate reality is there are people who are more than happy to dictate things for the rest of us.

I suppose that was technically two. I'm only awake because I was up all night sick and this may be impacting my counting skills.

Finally, there's the euphemism treadmill. For the same reason any term used to describe intellectual disability is likely to become an insult (moron, retard), any diction for a group people don't like is likely to become a slur. It can be exhausting keeping up with what diction is "acceptable," which I suppose circles back around to points one and two.
Being up all night sucks, hope you feel better!

Yeah, things get complicated when you're talking about groups, because not everyone will agree. For instance, I recently found out that some d/Deaf people find the term 'hearing impaired' to be insulting, whereas I've identified as that for pretty much my whole life (because I only have slight hearing loss, it's hard to know how to portray that to others).

Generally as a rule, I just identify people the way they want to be identified, and if I get corrected about something for a group I'm not a part of, it's not really my place to argue (within reason).
 

Nazulu

They will not take our Fluids
Jun 5, 2008
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TheLaughingMagician said:
Elfgore said:
KyuubiNoKitsune-Hime said:
First off, the term "transgenders" has become derogatory... At best it's used by people who are totally ignorant to trans people, the kind of people who generally don't even understand that trans men exist... Though mostly it's like "the gays" anymore, it's used generally as a dismissive, or fear inducing generalization...
Whoa, whoa, whoa! Are you being serious with this? This is an actual question, not disbelief in what you said.... Though it will become it if you say yes.
Well it's already pretty common to use terms like "gays", "jews", "blacks", "coloureds" as not quite slurs but certainly terms used to demean and dehumanise. As opposed to say "gay people" or "transgender people" or "the trans community". Hell even look at the word "queer" which the community fought to reclaim, still not a good idea to call them "the queers".
Does anyone here just see these as words that depend on context? People always label others to tell them apart regardless, so even if these groups call themselves something else, couldn't that just be used to be demeaning as well? I'm very sure it depends on context.

I didn't even know transgender was an offensive word, and I can't see exactly how when it doesn't even sound like an insulting word. I mean in that it doesn't have that particular sound like 'gay' and '******' do (and even queer), where you see people easily use them over the regular insults (I always thought those words should get a new meaning). So did it become that way because a lot of assholes have said it? Or am I missing a whole lot of history and there is a lot more to it?

This thread looked derailed enough to just ask :p
 

Nazulu

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Jun 5, 2008
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TheLaughingMagician said:
Nazulu said:
Does anyone here just see these as words that depend on context? People always label others to tell them apart regardless, so even if these groups call themselves something else, couldn't that just be used to be demeaning as well? I'm very sure it depends on context.

I didn't even know transgender was an offensive word, and I can't see exactly how when it doesn't even sound like an insulting word. I mean in that it doesn't have that particular sound like 'gay' and '******' do (and even queer), where you see people easily use them over the regular insults (I always thought those words should get a new meaning). So did it become that way because a lot of assholes have said it? Or am I missing a whole lot of history and there is a lot more to it?

This thread looked derailed enough to just ask :p
I don't think KyuubiNoKitsune-Hime was saying that "transgender" is offensive. It's using the word "transgenders" to collectively label all trans folk, that's the issue. Like similar to people who say "the blacks". If you say it it doesn't mean you're a bigot by any stretch, you could very well just be ignorant of the cultural context of such phrasing. Because that phrasing is generally only used in a particular context it effects the way the word is viewed. Like slurs, ****** wasn't a homophobic slur until it was. And just because the word had some other use doesn't mean that the cultural understanding of ****** is that it's a hateful word. Language doesn't exist in a vacuum.
Thanks for responding so quick, hope you don't mind the snip.

Ok, I can understand that better. It does have that derogatory sound when you say it like that (transgenders and the blacks). So is saying transgender people alright? If not, what is the label now? Or do some people just not like being labeled? Which I get but we still need something.
 

Something Amyss

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Dec 3, 2008
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TheLaughingMagician said:
Well it's already pretty common to use terms like "gays", "jews", "blacks", "coloureds" as not quite slurs but certainly terms used to demean and dehumanise. As opposed to say "gay people" or "transgender people" or "the trans community". Hell even look at the word "queer" which the community fought to reclaim, still not a good idea to call them "the queers".
And the problem therein is that "gay people" is still used in the same fashion as "gays" or "the gays." I think this is actually a remarkably cromulent example.

Queer as well.

Phasmal said:
Yeah, things get complicated when you're talking about groups, because not everyone will agree. For instance, I recently found out that some d/Deaf people find the term 'hearing impaired' to be insulting, whereas I've identified as that for pretty much my whole life (because I only have slight hearing loss, it's hard to know how to portray that to others).
You too? Fun, innit?

I have atypical hearing loss, which isn't horribly severe, and in most cases has minimal impact on my day-to-day life. Of course part of that may be that I bury my head in headphones when working or otherwise doing something. >.> But yeah, it was fairly recently that I actually ran into the Hard of hearing/hearing impaired thing.

Generally as a rule, I just identify people the way they want to be identified, and if I get corrected about something for a group I'm not a part of, it's not really my place to argue (within reason).
And based on that, I adjusted accordingly. Because honestly, the label means diddly to me, but it apparently is important to a lot of other people. I don't really...I guess it'd be identify...as Hard of Hearing, either as an identity or a culture or whatever. On the other hand, Deaf culture hasn't particularly changed its diction much, despite "deaf" being a general slur/insult/way of mocking people. The main push within the Deaf community tends to be the push to stop it being seen or phrased in terms of disability.

Which, you know, fair enough to them. I see my hearing damage as a disability. Long as they don't tell me how to think about it, though, I don't care. Which, I've never encountered.

Trans language policing, on the other hand, can get really irritating, hence my response to the subject.
 

Major_Tom

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Jun 29, 2008
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KyuubiNoKitsune-Hime said:
EDIT!: I'd like to clarify for everyone's benefit that it's the word "transgenders" when used as a plural for all transgender people that's become an issue. "Transgender" as a word hasn't picked up as much of the negative image, because it's been the correct term in the community for so long. "Transgenders" that's the one that has an "s" at the end has become an issue, because it's mostly(but not always), used with a dismissive and derisive tone of voice. It's not a term that I've ever seen used by trans folk, or heavily involved allies either. As far as I can tell the people who coined "transgenders" did so to as to avoid using "transgender people", so they could distance the wording from the fact that trans folk are actually people.
Oh! I didn't get the "s" and thought you were crazy. It's like "blacks", right?
 

The_State

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Jun 25, 2008
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As interesting and overwrought as the resulting conversation on this thread is, I'm going to try to address the original topic.

Trans people are often times just like regular people. Mostly because they are regular people. Their sexual taste varies completely based on the individual.

My girlfriend and I are both pre-op transwomen, and while I'm not terribly fond of her penis, she ADORES mine. Fact is I don't like most genitalia, and their existence doesn't factor in for me in terms of attraction. Whereas my ladyfriend is waaaay into transgirls and dates them almost exclusively. And I think that dichotomy kind of highlights a basic conceptual flaw in your query.

The thing about your question is that you're operating on a generalization, you even use the term "generally" in your initial asking. But we, as trans people, only have that one thing in common. Sure some of our experiences in that specific regard might be similar, but aside from that we're all going to be radically different people. Well, I guess it's a fair bet that we're also all into video games on this board. My point is that you're going to get a lot of different responses because the question you're asking doesn't directly correlate to the group you're asking it of.
 

Nazulu

They will not take our Fluids
Jun 5, 2008
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TheLaughingMagician said:
As far as I'm aware referring to someone as trans, transgender, trans/transgender man/woman/person is fine. I would imagine in an ideal world where being transgender is finally accepted as just something totally normal we would just refer to trans men and women as men and women. But this is all just what I've gleaned from talking to people. There's people in far better position to talk about this than me in these forums. But to be honest it doesn't cost anything to be nice and supportive. Like @SomethingAmyss said, queer is a good example. Most of my gay friends identify as queer, but one guy in particular actually finds ****** less offensive than queer because even without hate behind the word queer in it's most traditional use means weird so it's a label he resents. So to him ****** became a slur and can be reclaimed easier than queer which is insulting by it's very meaning.
I want to be supportive, but I want it make sense to me as well.

Also, I never found queer to be the nicest of words to label homosexuals either, because I always saw it used to describe weird things too when I was young. It even has that negative sound. I don't jump on anyone for using though, but I do think we need nicer sounding labels for these people while giving the current words other meanings.
 

Dizchu

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Sep 23, 2014
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Ughh I'm torn between which side in this derailed discussion to sympathise with. On one hand I don't think referring to transgender people as "transgenders" is the most heinous thing in the world but at the same time the people getting on a soapbox complaining about "those damn SJWs!" because they criticise a certain form of speech is just... depressing.

For anyone that's interested:

It's "transgender people", not "transgenders" in the same way it's "queer people" instead of "queers". It's not the biggest issue in the world but it's still not great. inb4 someone accuses me of censorship and stifling freedom of speech or however the fuck these discussions usually go.
 

McElroy

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Dizchu said:
It's "transgender people", not "transgenders" in the same way it's "queer people" instead of "queers". It's not the biggest issue in the world but it's still not great. inb4 someone accuses me of censorship and stifling freedom of speech or however the fuck these discussions usually go.
But in my country we don't call anyone 'people'. And the pronoun I use for this table is the same I use to refer to my grandma and the dog and everything else. I'm not even kidding. We have the ultimate liberty - linguistic liberty! Anyway, they just worked gender identity stuff into the school curriculum a few years ago. Imagine if due to some global sensibility they'd have to add a footnote "remember kids, don't call them transgenders", and soon everyone's back to using the local word for 'tranny'. But this is a small country, anything could happen.

OT: I'm cis-scum and not allowed to comment on this.
 

McElroy

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Annie said:
Shhh... the Americans, Canadians, the Brits, and the Aussies are pretending to be the center of the world again.
I understand the reason why these discussions here are often America-centric as the biggest and most visible problems seem to be over there. And moreover we're all using English everyday or at least here, so it's important to stay on top of things no matter where you're from (though that's where problems stem from, nobody owns the English language as it's used by all). Nevertheless, I tell the joke when I can.
 

Objectable

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Oct 31, 2013
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I hate this website and the stupid argument that came up in this thread is like one big example why.

Anyway, OP, I tend to lean towards trans people more when it comes to being attracted sexually. But even still, sexuality and romance is something so strange and complex that nobody really knows what's going on TBH.