Rape, Feminism, and The Escapist Forums

corneth

New member
Apr 19, 2011
89
0
0
I'm not entirely certain what section I should put this in, or if there even is a section that fits it, but this needs to be said. I'm not going to lie and say that I'm a massive user of these forums, I'll browse them casually now and then, but every time I glance down at the "Popular Forum Posts" box there's a post about Anita Sarkeesian or rape or a discussion of sexism. My question is why, on a website at least ostensibly about video games are there so many angry posts about feminism and rape? Of the top ten most discussed topics of the last year, five directly or indirectly referenced feminism or sexism in the opening post. From an outsider, this seems like overkill, and I really don't see a good reason for it. At best it seems excessive, at worst it perpetuates the stereotype that all nerds or "Gamers" are whiny, neckbearded pseudo-intellectuals who can't get any.
 

Foolery

No.
Jun 5, 2013
1,714
0
0
I lurked for a good bit before signing up and from what I've seen so far, yeah it explodes on this site. Granted, it explodes on other sites too. But anyway, you said the magic words. Prepare thyself, this thread might get fiery.
 

Super Kami Guru

New member
Aug 10, 2011
76
0
0
It's a controversial issue that everyone has an opinion about and usually sparks some strong feelings, it's not niche like any one video game or film is. In addition it adds a bit of variety to the forum, being able to talk about things other than gaming and films.
 

Phasmal

Sailor Jupiter Woman
Jun 10, 2011
3,676
0
0
I honestly don't know.
It's a controversial issue, sure, but there are plenty of other ones. The obsession with this one is more than a little disturbing.

You are right that it perpetuates an extremely negative stereotype about gamers.
Some of the stuff that gets said is concerning and it makes it difficult to be a feminist and female gamer on here. I really wish I knew why people keep feeling the need to bring it up.

I do think some people on here certainly have some unresolved issues with feminism, and women in general, but I don't think that accounts for all of it.
 

San Martin

New member
Jun 21, 2013
181
0
0
The towering inferno of flame-wars that is the Escapist's rape discussions for the most part only started burning this week, but I suppose it's an offshoot of the more general feminism threads.

However, all of them make perfect sense on a gaming forum, because sexism is an important problem in the gaming industry, and as such is a highly relevant topic.
 

Thaluikhain

Elite Member
Legacy
Jan 16, 2010
18,671
3,586
118
Well, this is typical of society as a whole. Anytime someone says that X gets unfair benefits over Y, or that Y is unfairly seen as less than X, members of X will appear, deny the accusation, and attack and/or threaten Y.

Hell, there'd be no real point of any rights movement if people weren't desperately trying to stop that group from obtaining equal rights.

Yes, the gaming community has real and deeply entrenched bigotry in its culture. But, that's because it's the same as everywhere else, not because it's different.

(And, yeah, usual caveats about "not all gamers are like that", the gamers who aren't like that not needing to hear it.)
 

Wraith

New member
Oct 11, 2011
356
0
0
I think it comes from people wanting to share their opinions on these controversial matters, but also wanting a large amount of people to see it. So they make a new thread on it instead of risking it being lost in one of the 10+ page discussions already being had.
 

DevilWithaHalo

New member
Mar 22, 2011
625
0
0
corneth said:
I'm not entirely certain what section I should put this in, or if there even is a section that fits it, but this needs to be said. I'm not going to lie and say that I'm a massive user of these forums, I'll browse them casually now and then, but every time I glance down at the "Popular Forum Posts" box there's a post about Anita Sarkeesian or rape or a discussion of sexism. My question is why, on a website at least ostensibly about video games are there so many angry posts about feminism and rape? Of the top ten most discussed topics of the last year, five directly or indirectly referenced feminism or sexism in the opening post.
Because various topics and ideologies find it necessary to comment regarding our the VG media incorporates those particular ideas. Opinionated or not, that's the catalyst behind the multiple discussions.

A movie may contain a rape scene and people might discuss the directors purpose behind such a thing, possibly discussing it's raw emotional power on the characters or creating an allegory within the story and the overall frame work of the point behind the movie.

A VG may contain a rape scene and suddenly the entire community is full of rapists. Quite an interesting standard don't you think?

A lot of people talk about VG moving forward as a genre in order to gain the respect it deserves as an art form as well as a mechanic for story telling. But how can we do so when we condemn difficult subject matter from even *existing* within it? Can we not accept that it's time to legitimize such ideas which discussion beyond; "the community is bigoted and we can't have nice things?"

Some might argue the difference is one of interaction; having the player directly involved in such a thing. But isn't that a fantastic way to engage the player on a more visceral level? Watching a movie doesn't excuse the behavior of the character or the viewer either disagreeing with the character, nor does playing grand theft auto create a generation of people incapable of driving behind the wheel.

And of course, some of us beg the question why this particular genre cannot explore such ideas and mechanics? Why can't there be a 50-shades VG? Because some people might not find it appropriate? How has that ever stopped alternate media from pushing such concepts? And like it or not, that is censorship; preventing others from creating certain stories merely because you take offense to them.

Most of the arguments surrounding such things come directly from feminism or feminist ideas; so it's not surprising that you'll find a community a little angry when they are condemned as...
corneth said:
From an outsider, this seems like overkill, and I really don't see a good reason for it. At best it seems excessive, at worst it perpetuates the stereotype that all nerds or "Gamers" are whiny, neckbearded pseudo-intellectuals who can't get any.
...such. Seriously, what is the purpose behind insulting an entire community because a few people are "offended" by someone attempting to control the material & media they have access to?

As an avid reader, would you not be offended by someone attempting to remove the word '******' from Huck Finn because someone finds it offensive? And in turn, prevent all books from using such words?

As an avid movie goer, would you not be offended by someone taking the rape scene out of the original Robocop because someone finds it offensive? And in turn, prevent all movies from using such scenes?

As an avid gamer, would you not be offended by someone attempting to remove the core storyline from Mario Brothers because someone finds it offensive? And in turn, prevent all games from using he damsel trope?
 

Uhura

This ain't no hula!
Aug 30, 2012
418
0
0
Yeah, it's bizarre. Imo, the frequency of those threads is getting really off-putting. I've been posting here less than a year and most of the female related threads I've seen here have been about these issues:
- hate threads about 'fake geek girls' and 'fake gamer girls'
- numerous threads about 'the friendzone'
- numerous hate threads about the feminist movement
- threads about 'horrible feminists'
- threads about slut shaming
- tons of hate threads dedicated to Anita Sarkeesian and her Kickstarter project
- threads about rape
- threads about how people should be allowed to tell rape jokes freely without facing any criticism (since all criticism is apparently 'censorship')
- threads about rape & victim blaming, featuring copious amounts of victim blaming
- threads about sexism/sexiness and how people should just deal with it/ how it doesn't exist (feminists made it up!!!) / or how men have it just as bad (and hence why women should just shut up and deal with it)
- threads about incidents where aggressive women do something violent, used to demonstrate how horrible hypocrites feminists/women are

etc.

It's just weird and ughh. I can't even think of any non-controversial or non-creepy threads made about women... there must be some?!
 

DevilWithaHalo

New member
Mar 22, 2011
625
0
0
JT-ham said:
This is one thing that I forgot to mention: these threads are a great place to root out all the people who are incapable of understanding the difference between criticism and censorship.
I have no issue with criticism. Nor do I take issue with people who critique the critics, or get into a critiquing war with each other. I don't think many other people really do despite the various personal disagreements people have with what they like in discussion with one another.

But you'd be an idiot not to recognize the various organizations who have attempted, and continue to attempt to regulate the gaming industry do to their ethical issues with what it produces. Your failure is assuming I discuss both things at once merely because you disagree with what you think I say.
JT-ham said:
It's like a country fair competition in who can express the worst misunderstanding or misapplication of the concept of freedom of speech. Can actually get pretty entertaining.

"This game developer has freedom of speech and therefore you are not allowed to use your freedom of speech to criticise their free speech, so shut up!"
Case in point.
 

Tombsite

New member
Nov 17, 2012
147
0
0
Because these threads always get really long really fast. People do not want to get into a discussion on page 25 so they start a new thread.

Just a theory though.
 

BloatedGuppy

New member
Feb 3, 2010
9,572
0
0
DevilWithaHalo said:
A VG may contain a rape scene and suddenly the entire community is full of rapists. Quite an interesting standard don't you think?
I remember reading an OCEAN of controversy and discussion during the episode of "Girls" when Adam has what is arguably non-consensual intercourse with his girlfriend. If you don't think controversy is stoked in more traditional media when these topics are brushed against, you haven't been paying attention.

You should also consider that gaming has a...let's be charitable and call it "spotty"...track record when it comes to how it handles controversial and/or sensitive material. That doesn't mean they should never try, but they're going to be viewed with a raised eyebrow until they can prove they have the artistic chops to handle such stuff without making it nakedly sensationalistic and/or exploitative.

DevilWithaHalo said:
Seriously, what is the purpose behind insulting an entire community because a few people are "offended" by someone attempting to control the material & media they have access to?
Why put "offended" into parentheses? You're offended. I know it's a popular theme around here that taking offense to something is evidence of a profound weakness of character, but just own your reactions.

DevilWithaHalo said:
As an avid movie goer, would you not be offended by someone taking the rape scene out of the original Robocop because someone finds it offensive? And in turn, prevent all movies from using such scenes?
I'm offended that of all the films you could've chosen, you settled on ROBOCOP as an artistic treasure that must be preserved. =\

DevilWithaHalo said:
As an avid gamer, would you not be offended by someone attempting to remove the core storyline from Mario Brothers because someone finds it offensive? And in turn, prevent all games from using the damsel trope?
Straw man. Identifying a trope and criticizing it's common use is not the same as "preventing all games from using it". Unless you think TV Tropes is an angry manifesto attempting to silence all popular entertainment.
 

Devil's Due

New member
Sep 27, 2008
1,244
0
0
Being here since 2008, this is kind of normal for the Escapist to go through a controversial phase every year. Last year, for example, was the ME3 ending. The year before there was a large amount of Pedophilia discussion threads, and I cannot for the life of me remember the years before that (I believe 2008 was about the censorship of games and that one lawyer who got disbarred for being such an anti-gamer) but I do know there were a lot.

It generally seems to go: Someone has an issue and wants to vent in the wrong section (Off-Topic is NOT Religion and Politics, I wish the mods would move that shit), people get angry, someone feels like their opinion won't be heard in the ensuring large thread and decides to make their own to get their own attention about their feelings, and then later people who just want badges try to get in on the mix to earn their pretty thread view badges.

I call it the Escapist Cycle:

Phase 1: The Controversy
Phase 2: The Firestorm
Phase 3: The Spin Offs
Phase 4: The Badge Collectors
Phase 5: Dormancy


I just wish mods would actively boot those threads to R&P, since they are not designed for OT and R&P can handle that kind of stuff. That was why they made it years ago anyways, to help curb this annual flame wars, but you'll still see nothing but political threads on OT for months. Sigh.

PS: On the bright side, we're in between Phase 4 and 5. But the minute Anita S. posts another video, it'll return to 1.

EDIT: Last years was ME3, I remember now. Thanks for the correction, Legion!
 

Panthera

New member
May 10, 2013
60
0
0
Probably because they're some of the ultimate examples of issues that elicit strong reactions and have a lot of goofy stereotypes held onto very dearly on both ends by the people who equally dearly hate the goofy stereotypes the other end has, and so it leads to the perfect storm where everyone is determined to prove that whoever doesn't agree with their invalid points clearly disagrees with their valid points too and is therefore THE WORSTPERSONEVER (that's a word now).

They're the perfect subjects for one person to yell about how women suck and another person to yell about how men suck and both to wonder why everyone else is so gosh darned sexist.
 

DevilWithaHalo

New member
Mar 22, 2011
625
0
0
JT-ham said:
DevilWithaHalo said:
But you'd be an idiot not to recognize the various organizations who have attempted, and continue to attempt to regulate the gaming industry do to their ethical issues with what it produces. Your failure is assuming I discuss both things at once merely because you disagree with what you think I say.
Oh, perhaps I just missed something. Can you provide an example of a time that an organisation called for censorship - actually called for censorship, rather than just criticising something - of something sexism-related in a video game?
You aren't aware? Huh, ok then...

http://www.mavav.org/
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jack_Thompson_(activist)#Video_games
http://www.ign.com/articles/2010/09/14/poll-72-of-adults-support-violent-game-law
That should get you started. Most of them tend to differentiate violence and violence against women specifically; or negative sexual depictions (the hallmark of sexism).

But one also has to wonder exactly what the purpose behind various criticism such as this; http://drkarendill.files.wordpress.com/2008/09/sexist-and-pro-rape-attitudes-among-video-gamers-draft-2-karen-dill-pdf.pdf is beyond an explanation in support for "altering" game content to support a specific bias. When one does so, are they not suggesting preventing specific depictions of content because they disagree with it? Why else would you attempt to argue a correlation behind such depictions and negative consequences within the real world?
 

DevilWithaHalo

New member
Mar 22, 2011
625
0
0
BloatedGuppy said:
I remember reading an OCEAN of controversy and discussion during the episode of "Girls" when Adam has what is arguably non-consensual intercourse with his girlfriend. If you don't think controversy is stoked in more traditional media when these topics are brushed against, you haven't been paying attention.
There's a show called "Girls"? OMG sexism! (Seriously, never heard of it, I'll check it out)
BloatedGuppy said:
Why put "offended" into parentheses? You're offended. I know it's a popular theme around here that taking offense to something is evidence of a profound weakness of character, but just own your reactions.
To illustrate that you can take offense at everything; like being offended that people are easily offended. It's quite offending.
BloatedGuppy said:
I'm offended that of all the films you could've chosen, you settled on ROBOCOP as an artistic treasure that must be preserved. =\
What's wrong with Robocop? It's a classic!

If you prefer artistic treasures, how about the 'Rape of the Sabine Women'? Isn't the 'Mona Lisa' a perfect example of the male gaze and female objectification? I mean, she's just sitting there smiling at you; she obviously possesses no value to the viewer beyond aesthetic.
BloatedGuppy said:
Straw man. Identifying a trope and criticizing it's common use is not the same as "preventing all games from using it". Unless you think TV Tropes is an angry manifesto attempting to silence all popular entertainment.
True. I just don't see how she justifies it's support toward negative attitudes toward women and inherently misogynist ideas. Tropes are an explanation for something which already exists; they don't really do anything.

JT-ham said:
Video game addiction is without a doubt, becoming this century's most increasingly worrisome epidemic, comparable even to drug and alcohol abuse. All the while, the video game industry continues to market and promote hatred, racism, sexism, and the most disturbing trend: clans and guilds, an underground video game phenomenon which closely resembles gangs.
72 percent of adults show they would support a law that would prohibit the sale of "ultraviolent or sexually violent"...
If you're not going to bother reading what I provide, I won't bother attempting to have a conversation with you.