Rape vs Violence: A Double Standard

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DudeistBelieve

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McMarbles said:
The difference is that nobody's ever RAPED anyone in self-defense.
I mean how could it even work? Someone pulls a gun at you, you dive bomb for their crotch in the hopes of giving them a blow job so they don't kill you but out of shock they shoot you in the leg.

Robber: What the fuck, man?
You: I was gonna suck you off in exchange for my life!
Robber: I didn't want to shoot you, just wanted your wallet!
You: Well fuck all now!
Robber: What the hell can of plan was that anyway? You think if I was set on killing you the only thing that would make me change my mind would be an inexperinced blow job from you?
You: I really didn't think this through.
Robber: Clearly. You'd be under stressed, so it would of been lousy.
 

DudeistBelieve

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Anthony Corrigan said:
Unfortunately the rape vs violence thing is being used to hide a real issue, SEX vs Violence
No one things there is any circumstance where rape is acceptable, but SEX IS good, its the reason we are all here, its a sign of love and its one of the best entertainments and so good for the body (physically, psychologically, physiologically), this is one of the reasons why rape is so damaging

So why do games, censors and society treat SEX (not rape, consensual sex) treat SEX as worse than violence?
Its compleatly ok to watch someone's naked body get blown to bits in high def, full graphic slow motion but to see a naked body in a SEXUAL context (or in the context of just being naked even) is considered off limits and some how wrong
define sex.

Cause you say making love in maincharacter has with Sarah Conner in the first Terminator movie? That was right on. Tasteful.

or are you talking casual fucking where they do anal and the guy unloads on to the girls face.

cause one of those has it's place in artistic medium. the other is just porn.
 

knight steel

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I personally believe in my humble opinion that if you allow torture to be in your game/the killing of innocent's that you should then be allowed to include rape perhaps even allowing the player to do it.

Now I know some of the common argument's about how they are different and why one is ok and the other is not so let me address those here and now for you all [note the following apply to video games not real life:

1-You can't justify rape:Actually I think you can a prime example is the girl with a dragon tatto were the female lead tied down her abuser and shoved a dildo up his rectum,in short if rape is a way to get revenge on someone who seriously wronged you then yes it justifiable in the same way torture would be. Also if you're playing a evil character it could be justified in showing how bad or depraved you are,and how people react to you.

2-Rape is more horrible as it continues to hurt you even after it over due to the trauma: And because of that at least you have the chance to recover and get better while murder it final,also what about torture that leaves a permanent scar and can damage your psyche for the rest of your life but it's allowed in video games,also this is not happening to a real person so what differences does it make it's not really damaging a person but is merely a representation.

3-Rape victims are still alive and this could hurt them/trigger an episode: So could alot of things what happens if your family and you were just in a serious car crash that killed them,pictures/games that involved crashes could be a trigger ect ect Do we block them from being shown it games of course not because their are always going to be things that could trigger an episode for people,also no ones forcing you to play the game too aware of what in it and avoid it.
 

Abomination

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Rape is at a disadvantage in the comparison in how it's always a purely malicious act whereas violence can be done to prevent the wicked from doing wicked things. That being said, as games have become more and more violent and the protagonists have been open to more villainous characters than before.

Rape can become the ultimate expression of hate and punishment towards somebody though. A less than savory protagonist may perform such an act against an adversary as a form of revenge... but in order for that to pass these days the individual being raped would need to be one of the most despicable individuals one could imagine - perhaps they raped the protagonist's daughter or something.

I understand how people can get so hung up about rape, I personally do not and would be fine seeing it in games.
 

Anthony Corrigan

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SaneAmongInsane said:
Anthony Corrigan said:
Unfortunately the rape vs violence thing is being used to hide a real issue, SEX vs Violence
No one things there is any circumstance where rape is acceptable, but SEX IS good, its the reason we are all here, its a sign of love and its one of the best entertainments and so good for the body (physically, psychologically, physiologically), this is one of the reasons why rape is so damaging

So why do games, censors and society treat SEX (not rape, consensual sex) treat SEX as worse than violence?
Its compleatly ok to watch someone's naked body get blown to bits in high def, full graphic slow motion but to see a naked body in a SEXUAL context (or in the context of just being naked even) is considered off limits and some how wrong
define sex.

Cause you say making love in maincharacter has with Sarah Conner in the first Terminator movie? That was right on. Tasteful.

or are you talking casual fucking where they do anal and the guy unloads on to the girls face.

cause one of those has it's place in artistic medium. the other is just porn.
So you would compare watching someones brains blown out in slow motion, even zooming into watch what happens to the bone from a "good shot" with what?

Killing is wrong, consensual sex is good no matter how explicit it is so what exactly does it matter how explicit it is?
 

Ikasury

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hrm... there's actually quite a bit of suggested rape in games if you know where to look or how to register the psudo-symbolism... Mind!Rape, Soul!Rape, Physical!Rape, etc. etc. if it involves some kind of non-human/human interactions, especially anything to deal with demons you can bet your ass there's something in there that at the very LEAST suggests rape... maybe my brain is just completely wired for spotting this stuff and i'm jumping to conclusions... but really, its there if you know where to look .-.

its typically coupled with some kind of specifically 'evil' violence, shame, or even abortion overtones, bonus points to demon babies of some kind... Demon's Souls i'm looking at you -.-

random violence/killing in video games is... silly, mostly, to be honest, why don't we take it as serious? because killing is EASY, its as quick and effortless as pushing someone off a bridge of sticking a knife in them... i know there's supposed to be a 'moral issue' when it comes to killing, but we as animals are just as programmed to do it to survive as any other creature, its already there in us to do it... and again, its easy, its just our build up 'society' makes issue with it and tell us its wrong, plus i think on some level no matter how into the game we are, we all know 'its not real', as in that NPC is nothing but someone attacking our character, they have no background, no history, no personality, nothing to them, they are a complete blank meant solely for the purpose of us killing them to get from point A to point B, so you can't even really call it 'murder', but that's getting into a completely other set of morality...

Rape is... well there's a reason there's an entire trope called 'Rape is a special kind of evil', removing the good/evil from it, even still its an act that requires a lot of planning, build up, power, force, etc. etc. and i doubt it simply damages the victim but the attacker as well, but they're usually already damaged anyway... rape actually has very little to do with just 'sex' and more to do with power exertion and humiliation, that requires a much deeper connection then 'killing' does... effectively why does it 'effect' us more? because it requires more effort to comprehend, and we ourselves are more adverse and shamed of it, especially if it happened to us... death is final, trauma is a lifetime thing...

even if we're not playing 'heroes' it takes that extra step in effort to actually go about 'raping our enemies' then just say killing them...

i have no issue with rape being 'in' video games, like i said, if you know where and 'how' to look its already there, just like in comics and movies its hidden under subtlety... and from what i've heard of the 'rape scene' in new Tomb Raider, didn't if you fail that the guy just killed her? so while he's being all creepy, yes, but its not REALLY rape... though it would make sense in the context... its just another one of those 'assumed' scenes, and i have no real issue with this kind of thing... like someone said earlier i think i had more of a reaction from playing Leliana's back story in DA:O... in fact there's A LOT of implied-if-not-openly-stated-rape in Dragon Age: Origins... hmm...

i think its a good thing people get a squicky reaction, it basically means you're less likely to do it, which is good... but yea, no reason to not have it in there... fuck half my issue with visual media is "if they can do it in books why not -insert media here-?" because seriously, books is free reign... suppose the audio/visuals are just an added push on the trauma scale or something *shrugs* psychologically is more disturbing then just imagining it in your own head i suppose...
 

DudeistBelieve

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Anthony Corrigan said:
SaneAmongInsane said:
Anthony Corrigan said:
Unfortunately the rape vs violence thing is being used to hide a real issue, SEX vs Violence
No one things there is any circumstance where rape is acceptable, but SEX IS good, its the reason we are all here, its a sign of love and its one of the best entertainments and so good for the body (physically, psychologically, physiologically), this is one of the reasons why rape is so damaging

So why do games, censors and society treat SEX (not rape, consensual sex) treat SEX as worse than violence?
Its compleatly ok to watch someone's naked body get blown to bits in high def, full graphic slow motion but to see a naked body in a SEXUAL context (or in the context of just being naked even) is considered off limits and some how wrong
define sex.

Cause you say making love in maincharacter has with Sarah Conner in the first Terminator movie? That was right on. Tasteful.

or are you talking casual fucking where they do anal and the guy unloads on to the girls face.

cause one of those has it's place in artistic medium. the other is just porn.

So you would compare watching someones brains blown out in slow motion, even zooming into watch what happens to the bone from a "good shot" with what?

Killing is wrong, consensual sex is good no matter how explicit it is so what exactly does it matter how explicit it is?

Well theres just killing a person, then theres blood sprays like in Kill Bill or torture porn like the SAW movies.

Everything works in levels.
 

Anthony Corrigan

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I'm not talking about some backyard horror film, the game I was describing was Call of Duty.

Subtle its not but it goes WAY beyond simply not being subtle, the game slows down to give you the best angle as your sniper shot hits, it zooms right in (not as in the scope, I mean the camera turns to give the best view of the shot) and it even shows the damage the shot does to the bone and organs

And you think this is "better" than ANY consensual sex? no matter HOW explicit it is?
 

Eddie the head

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darlarosa said:
To me rape is a form of torture, and murder is murder. Torture is worse than murder because you make a person live with it.
That's subjective at best. The fear of dying might be much worse for some people then the mental trauma you would experience form torture. For me out of the two to quote Tim form Mogworld "I kind of don't want to die." Yes it would suck to be tortured, but if I die I just don't "exist" anymore.
 

LetalisK

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SaneAmongInsane said:
define sex.

Cause you say making love in maincharacter has with Sarah Conner in the first Terminator movie? That was right on. Tasteful.

or are you talking casual fucking where they do anal and the guy unloads on to the girls face.

cause one of those has it's place in artistic medium. the other is just porn.
Either? I mean, it has to make sense within the context of the game, and I feel the latter would be a harder sell, but I could imagine a GTA game it might fit in. They actually did a porn scene in Vice City if I'm not mistaken. They were "tasteful" about it.
 

LetalisK

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Sorry for the double post...

Rastelin said:
4RM3D said:
I am not seeing rape going that way. I just think we have a double standard here.
What do you suggest? Add rape to the games or remove the mindless killing to balance things up? The latter is not realistic as killing has been a part of games since the beginning.
I am quite happy to keep rape out of it. It adds nothing of worth other than to cater to sick perverts and victimize women. At least in GTA you can kill all sexes equally.
Uh yeeeeah...what? Rape can only be there for sexual titillation or power fantasies? Come now, we both know games are just as capable of exploring the theme appropriately as every other medium.
 

Anthony Corrigan

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LetalisK said:
SaneAmongInsane said:
define sex.

Cause you say making love in maincharacter has with Sarah Conner in the first Terminator movie? That was right on. Tasteful.

or are you talking casual fucking where they do anal and the guy unloads on to the girls face.

cause one of those has it's place in artistic medium. the other is just porn.
Either? I mean, it has to make sense within the context of the game, and I feel the latter would be a harder sell, but I could imagine a GTA game it might fit in. They actually did a porn scene in Vice City if I'm not mistaken. They were "tasteful" about it.
Exactly you could have subtle sex or full explicit sex, what difference does it make, both are NORMAL (as in everyone does them) compared to violence which is most definitely NOT normal.
 

Gregory McMillan

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Until a game can do a sex scene without messing it up, then we can talk about rape. Hell, most movies can't get sex scenes right for that matter. I read A Song of Ice and Fire novels. Rape is ALWAYS implied and never shown. The reason being, no one wants to sit through a rape session. Human progress and history has been defined by murder, warfare, love, technology, etc. But never rape. You kill the evil king to save the world. Start a war in the name of a just cause. Get revenge, whatever. But rape never ends in change. Rape never solves anything. Soldiers rape only to demoralize the enemy or to satisfy base instincts. As a gamer there is no literary justification to rape another character. Great protagonists (even terrible protagonists) are playable because we as a player want some of the things they want. We want the good guy to win, we want the anti-hero to get revenge, we want the morally bad protagonist to get even. Rape never satisfies a goal. The only way is if the antagonist feared above all else to get raped, but we as the players don't think to rape him/her but to kill them or torture them and be done with it. For rape to have literary sense, the reader has to see some tiny small justification for it to occur. This is why characters like Gregor Clegane are despised, because they are rapists. George RR Martin doesn't even have to show you a rape scene, he just tells you who the rapists are and you automatically hate them.

If you were to have rape in a video game, it should be off-screen. You could hear the screams as you desperately try to find a way to save the victim. You could open the victim's apartment and find her lying there and the rapist gone. But it's not something that needs to be seen in it's entirety and certainly not something that needs to be done. Yes it's fiction, but fiction is based on reality at some levels and rape is something I'm sure even a Vulcan couldn't play around with.
 

Shinkicker444

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SaneAmongInsane said:
McMarbles said:
The difference is that nobody's ever RAPED anyone in self-defense.
I mean how could it even work? Someone pulls a gun at you, you dive bomb for their crotch in the hopes of giving them a blow job so they don't kill you but out of shock they shoot you in the leg.

Robber: What the fuck, man?
You: I was gonna suck you off in exchange for my life!
Robber: I didn't want to shoot you, just wanted your wallet!
You: Well fuck all now!
Robber: What the hell can of plan was that anyway? You think if I was set on killing you the only thing that would make me change my mind would be an inexperinced blow job from you?
You: I really didn't think this through.
Robber: Clearly. You'd be under stressed, so it would of been lousy.
Honestly, first thing that popped into my head was something you'd see in a SAW movie.

"Fk the girl and I'll let you live." Or something like that.
 
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I consider Rape as a Continual Condition. Like most people, I sadly know my share of rape victims. Most lead productive lives. But almost all have their lives colored by that few minutes of their lives, never to be the same again.

I don't think most people can completely understand what it is to know that you aren't control of your own body. To be helpless and reduced to a play thing for some sick maniac. But on the same token, others do.

Why do you think it's perfectly legal and understandable to kill combatants... but not torture them? Rape is a form of torture, I feel. It's something done to you that you can never fix, or replace. It is taking your life and ending it... but letting you live on with the ramifications. It's cruel and unusual.

we all hugged each other and felt great when those three girls from Ohio were released after a decade of being sex slaves [http://www.nypost.com/p/news/national/ohio_prosecutor_may_seek_execution_iHDSj7mJxgLalTlF32FhIL]. We feel justifiable and righteous fury when we learn they are seeking the death penalty for that animal. And we'll move on. Our support will fade, and every time those girls close their eyes, their minds will dart from any one of the moments of Three Thousand Six Hundred and Fifty Two Days they were tied up and made into living playthings.

I've been punched, kicked, tackled, chased, shot at, threatened with knives.. and I don't think bad on any of them.

I do think back to the time that for one summer, I was sexually preyed on. A few weeks at camp of always looking over my shoulder, not really understanding what those older boys were doing, but hating every second of it. Wanting help but not even knowing what it was to say to someone 'This is happening to me, please help stop it'.

I'm not being hyperbolic about the being shot at and threatened with knives. It happened to me. Several times each. the difference is, I expect to die. Everyone will. If you believe in Science, that's it and you'll not even be around to feel bad about it being over. If you believe in Religion, you'll come back or you'll be in a place that puts our existence to shame. So those things, I feel ok about. I joke around. And I do actually take pride from experiencing.

I would willingly maim anyone who threatens to put me back in the place I felt like as a 10 year old. I will gleefully do it. Never again.
 

FancyNick

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Here's my take on this whole thing. Games don't have the same sort of credibility as movies or books yet in terms of storytelling. So it would seem most are wary of using such a harsh topic when it is, as of now, largely untested. Besides it will never be used as a plot point as much murder. Very few media use rape as a central point whether it be book, T.V., or movies. It's just not a popular idea. Most people are very uncomfortable with any mention of it and for good reason.
 

Terramax

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IllumInaTIma said:
Ok, I won't defend games like GTA or Carmageddon in which violence is committed just for its own sake. But, for the most game with violent content, there is usually some sort of justification for murder. It's war. They killed your dog. They are bad people, they are your enemies. In some sense you're justified in killing them. But rape... you don't rape your enemies. Rape is an act that is committed because... fuck, I don't even know.
My understanding is that rape actually does have a context. Various species, and even various human societies, both today, and in the past, have used rape as a way of expressing dominance. Whether it's justified is another issue, but then again, so is any kind of violence. Just because people are bad, does that give you the right to kill them, even if they've killed. We are living in an amoral world, after all. Technically speaking, mother nature didn't write any guidelines on what living creatures should and shouldn't do. If one is to argue that violence is in our nature, perhaps we have to acknowledge that rape is a natural part of human life as well. Again, I'm not saying this justifies anything, just food for thought.

However, I do agree with the OP. I think people do have double standards. I've always thought a little dirty playing video games based off of real wars, replaying people's misery for my own enjoyment, and giving money to companies whom profit off of other people's misery. Not just video games. Plenty of books and films out there too.

To elaborate though, I think the rape issue has gotten out of hand because it's something that affects women more than men. And, as well all know, there are some women out there (not all, I'll emphasis) who think that their welfare is above that of men. And they feel that, whilst it's generally acceptable to show victimisation of men, victimisation of women is a cardinal sin, because women are supposed to be more fragile and innocent..... and yet, they constantly go on about women being empowered, wanting equal rights, etc...... yeah, double standards all over the place.

Ok, let me put it this way. You can picture a hero killing his enemies for a greater cause. But, you can not, for the love of god, picture a hero that would rape someone, even his mortal enemy. That's all I got, I suck at explaining my thoughts.
Isn't that more to do with what's considered 'socially acceptable' rather than what's moral/ immoral though? Think about it, sex PERIOD is being filtered out of our books, films, videogames, and other mediums, whether it be for lust or love, because there are some people out there who're of the opinion that just thinking about sex a sin, even though it's the most natural thing in the world. That sex before marriage is a sin (logic I'll never understand).

Although, I have heard of one film by Paul Verhoeven, many years ago, where a homophobe is actually raped by a group of gay men, and then becomes gay himself. I forgot which film though.
 

IchiT

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To try to explain my thoughts on this argument, I have an example to offer. Bear with me.

Okay, so you have a game like BioShock, where there was some exploration of race in a dystopian society. This is a legitimate form of racism in a fictional setting because it's an EXPLORATION of the topic (in some form) while at the same time being integral to the storyline. This is generally considered acceptable and okay.

Now, imagine a game where you play your average hero, but in the South in the Jim Crow era. Your function in this game is simple, take down the foreign spies, any way you can. THAT is the storyline and THAT is what you're there for. But there are side adventures you can do that are in the theme of the time, and those side adventures are all about black people. You can beat blacks, shoot blacks, torture blacks, don white robes and burn crosses on their lawns, and every night you can choose one to lynch. You know, just for funsies.

Is this STILL an acceptable portrayal of racism in a game or storyline? Does it add anything to the storyline? Enhance your in-game experience? Would the people upset about this game just be big baby whiners with their panties in a wad?

The thing that is different between rape and murder, is murder--as portrayed in practically every video game ever--is you against someone who is equally well armed and equally able to fight back. In the rare instances this is not the case--Grand Theft Auto, for example--the people you're indiscriminately killing are little more than mannequins filled with blood sacks. There is no connection to these people, no reality. A friend of mine once described the pedestrians in GTA as "robbable parking meters that bleed."

So, for violence you have "fighting the dude trying to kill me" and "killing the slab-o-meat I have zero connection to or emotional investment in." And, oh yeah, non-human monsters.

But rape is a different story. Rape is the female equivalent (and remember, I said bear with me here) of the above example where you're lynching black men. You are taking an individual with zero power, holding them down, and proceeding to MUTILATE and TORTURE them. For funsies. (And for those who don't know how female parts work, yes, mutilation happens in rape; damage is done.) This is NOT an equal exchange of power. And, in order to make the fantasy work, you can't be fucking a faceless mannequin, she has to be real to you. Which means you have to IMMERSE yourself in the mind set of a man who would hand pick a helpless victim, overpower them, and then proceed to torture and shatter them.

When you kill a guy, he's dead. Game over. He feels no more pain.

But when you rape a woman...well, imagine breaking a leg. Imagine that the break sets badly. And sure, you're alive, but you can no longer run or jump or be active the way you used to, and in fact even walking for extended periods of time hurts. Imagine it aches when it rains and when the weather changes, so, out of nowhere and without warning, you will live the pain of that break again and again and again. Imagine your whole life changing, shifting, and once where you could do anything you wanted without a second thought, now every thing you do you have to plan it around the restrictions of your leg. And, in fact, some things you'll never do again.

And now imagine doing that to someone's psyche.

So yes, it's different.

And even IF you really do get your ya-yas off on the above, tell me how a rape is at all integral to a story. Tell me a SINGLE story where removing the rape scene would have derailed it. No, not even Game of Thrones would have been significantly changed had our thirteen year old princess been taken willingly. The only stories I can think where rape is integral are stories where the action of raping a woman sets her on a path to bloody, bloody revenge, and most of those are classified as Horror for a reason.

And the capper on all this is you are then showcasing games involving a violent and brutalizing crime TO PEOPLE WHO HAVE BEEN VIOLATED AND BRUTALIZED. This is not a minority scenario. According to statistics, half of all gamers are girls. And one in four of those girls have been sexually assaulted, molested, raped, or some combination thereof. And those are only the crimes REPORTED, the number may actually be much higher. Imagine being tortured, then being forced to sit down and watch as people play a game that features your torture, for funsies. And then laugh at you and tell you that you're "too sensitive" because you're upset at seeing your torture depicted as something to do for giggles.

Sure, a lot of PC is checked at the door in art. We depict racist dystopias, places where women are second class citizens, or even entire planets where life is cheap, short, and brutal. And we LIKE it that way. And I say more the power to it and long may it stay that way.

But...there are limits. There are places we draw lines. Like lynching black men for funsies. Or, one would hope, playing on the nightmares and horror of fellow gamers just so we can get a few cheap laughs.

Then again, maybe that's just me.
 

solemnwar

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The reason Rape is such a touchy subject is because we live in a Rape Culture.

I mean, if someone is murdered, no one says "Oh they must have been asking for it" or "well if they hadn't been wearing THAT, it wouldn't have happened!" or any other of that bullshit. At most they might say "If only they hadn't been out at night, this tragedy would have been avoided!" or "Oh god why did he egg him on this is so horrible!"

NOBODY BLAMES A VICTIM OF MURDER FOR BEING MURDERED. Almost EVERYONE blames a rape victim for their rape, for various bullshit reasons. "She was probably leading him on." "Well they were already dating so how is it rape?" "She had sex with people before she's probably just trying to get money out of this guy." "Oh come on what a pussy he just needs to buck up, he just wants the attention." "Well maybe if she hadn't been wearing those clothes." "Maybe if she hadn't been drinking."


Yeah nobody does that to victims of murder. Murder is always seen as a really terrible thing. Rape? It's hard to get people to even admit that a rape occurred. Everyone seems to want to "justify" the man (or woman's, in some cases) actions, or dismiss it as someone being "emotional". Ugh.



Also yes there is hyperbole in this post it's just how I talk/write, shhhhh.
 

Anthony Corrigan

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Umm ever herd the term "NHI"? No Humans Involved

EVERYONE blames the murder victim, "oh they were a prostitute, well that doesn't matter then"
"Oh he was just a homeless bum, who cares"

Then there is THIS case
http://www.foxnews.com/us/2012/03/20/attorney-for-black-teenager-killed-by-neighborhood-watch-captain-says-was/

tell me people didn't say he was asking for it, they even said he shouldn't have dressed in a hoody (she was asking for it because how she dressed)

And you don't think there is something wrong with treating people as lamp posts that bleed?
Hell watch spoonies commentary on final fantasy Xiii where he points out the guards you are haplessness murdering are actually standing up to there bosses strongly protesting them for ordering them to fire indiscriminately