Rape vs Violence: A Double Standard

LetalisK

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SpunkeyMonkey said:
LetalisK said:
While I mimic many of your sentiments here, the bolded statement and statements like it continue to drive me mad. Who said rape had to be turned into something palatable if it's to be used in a game? I would think it would be used in a game because it's unpalatable. People keep drawing these comparisons between the protagonist going on a wanton killing spree and rape as if the protagonist going on a raping spree has ever been suggested as a reasonable way of addressing this issue.
To be fair mate I agree, but we need to accept that unpalatable things generally get rejected and shunned by society. For it to work in any art form it has to be done, very, very carefully, else the average Joe will just reject it outright, and it becomes "rape is bad" as opposed to "that was a very powerful scene/part of a game"
The average joe will try to reject it even if it's done well because it makes us uncomfortable, as it should. And while it should be done carefully too often do I see that sentiment seep over into fear of doing it or afraid that it won't be done without mistakes. We can't be afraid of facing it. At this point a simple "rape is bad" would be a step up from the current paradigm of apologists and ostriches.
 

LetalisK

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SpunkeyMonkey said:
LetalisK said:
The average joe will try to reject it even if it's done well because it makes us uncomfortable, as it should. And while it should be done carefully too often do I see that sentiment seep over into fear of doing it. We can't be afraid of facing it. At this point a simple "rape is bad" would be a step up from the current paradigm of apologists and ostriches.
Again I agree, but I don't trust most companies to do it right - I think most will do it purely for shock and sales.
If they fuck it up then we should rightfully shame them for it. We just need to make sure the message gets across that it's because they fucked it up, not because they tried it. That's the tricky part.
 

Demonjazz

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TehCookie said:
War and violence is bad, but it's also something we do normally. Even little kids playfight all the time and sometimes actually fight. I don't remember any kids playing rape. You can even put a positive spin on violence and have it be about a hero fighting an army to save a princess since violence in the sake of justice is okay. It may be violent, but it's not about violence it's the means to an end. What goal would require you to rape someone?

Actually why would you want to be a rapist in your fantasy? I never play games and go "I want to kill tons of people!" Of course there are still games about you playing an evil murder, but there are also games you can be a rapist.
... I totally never play games were I say "I want to kill tons of people"*Hides all the dead people from Skyrim, that I put in humorous poses*
And there are goals that may require you to rape some one like... You must impregnate the queen of Alserdansia or else the world will fall in two days... You must impregnate somebody so that Batman is born in the future, but you have to do to somebody who is married and a very devoted wife... Your God and must rape the world to make it exist... Well none of these are good scenarios but still scenarios
 

Chris Tian

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4RM3D said:
I completely agree with you. Its just a social double standart that rape is perceived as worse than murder or other severe violance. I personally think its connected to sex being a "bad" or tabu thing, and rape is violance connected to sex so its perceived as "double" bad.

I subconsciously apply the same double standart, I am currently playing an Assassin in Skyrim and am murdering my way through the landscape for money. But I would never play a character who rapes for money, or any other reason for that matter.

darlarosa said:
Firtly rape and murder are very different things and the sense of violation experienced by victims very different.
They are only equal in that both are horrible things to happen to people. To me rape is a form of torture, and murder is murder. Torture is worse than murder because you make a person live with it.
This is complete and utter nonsense, being alive is always superior to being dead, because only if you are alive there is a chance of getting better, regardless of how slim that chance may be.

I am closely related to a rapevictim and we, her close family and friends, and her are very very happy that she is still alive.
 

WaltherFeng

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darlarosa said:
Firtly rape and murder are very different things and the sense of violation experienced by victims very different.
They are only equal in that both are horrible things to happen to people. To me rape is a form of torture, and murder is murder. Torture is worse than murder because you make a person live with it.
Utter nonsense. Period.
 

chozo_hybrid

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http://www.escapistmagazine.com/videos/view/jimquisition/5972-Rape-vs-Murder

I think Jim Sterling did pretty well at explaining the issue and I agree with him. Take a look at this video, and see what you think.
 

Eddie the head

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Agent_Dark said:
Oh, victim shaming certainly happens everywhere. The difference though is that a murder is a murder and my expectation, based on my observation of how society deals with murder, is that the murderer is going to be convicted by society at large. It's one thing to say "the black/latino victim was at fault for wearing a hoodie" but entirely another to say "the murderer shouldn't face the full extent of the law because the black/latino was wearing a hoodie".
Right but again they do. Considering that was the argument at hand when that clip was taken. Should the guy that shot him go to jail? This was the argument at had and that was the response. And if I recall correctly the guy avoid prosecution for a while. Basically what I am saying is the second one is what they where saying.

Hell that's one of the contributing factors in how Joe Horn got off. Public sympathy lied with him (at least in Texas) because those two people shouldn't have been burgling his neighbor's home. But he still got away with killing two people. I mean he killed two criminals and they are criminals right?

Look blaming the victim sucks in any regard. It's not exclusive to rape and rape is not the only place where people get away with doing it.

Edit. Can we just agree both are bad and shouldn't happen?
 

Labyrinth

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Because violence isn't included as a moral theme, unless maybe it's Spec Ops. It's included because games are about challenge and antagonism, and the easiest way to express this is through violence. It's design shorthand, a simple premise to enable the primary feature of games; that they're a game. Did space invaders need to be about killing aliens? No, but violence was a simple way to tell a simple story; they want to kill you, kill them first.

This works because violence and killing are a complex subject. We can separate fantasy and reality here because we understand that this violence is a) simulated and b) justified. It's usually only a premise, not an indulgence. You can tell when it *is* an indulgence, because we automatically put big labels on it like 'gore porn', 'brutal' and 'visceral'. And, even with all of this, violent media *does* affect us. It doesn't encourage us to be violent, because we are rational minds and not restrained psychopaths, but it *does* desensitize us to it.

Rape, on the other hand, is far more personal. It is, to within a fraction of a shadow of a notion of exception, always about power. From a violent assault to a drunken exploitation, rape is defined and identified by its power abuse. A video game is an exercise in power, agency and contest, and the combination of these two ideas is an extremely touchy thing. It's not 'just a game', any more than a tear-inducing symphony is 'just a song'. Do the emotions stirred by a clever story become invalid because they're from a video game? Do the ideas and notions presented in intelligent science fiction cease to matter because that Sci-Fi was Bioshock Infinite and not Star Trek or Asimov?

Rape can be included in games, because it is a valid topic for fiction and narrative as any other, but as with everything else in video games it has the potential to go very, very wrong if handled poorly. Even more so, considering the way a game's nature interacts with the power-abuse factors that define rapes and other sexual assaults.

Rape is *not* an equivalent of violence. I know that isn't what you were implying, but it is worth stating. There is no double standard, because you are comparing apples to communist theory.

EDIT: And this is actually Ultrajoe, forgetting to switch over the accounts before responding. So yeah, I'm not reposting all of this, just be aware before you get mad/respond to/offer money to Labyrinth that she didn't post this.
 

Ultrajoe

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Chris Tian said:
This is complete and utter nonsense, being alive is always superior to being dead, because only if you are alive there is a chance of getting better, regardless of how slim that chance may be.
I have to butt in here, on my own account finally, to rebound your accusations of utter nonsense. Sometimes electing for death is a rational decision. Horrific disease, mental decay and impending suffering are all reasonable instances for ending your own life. Life has no value any more to its owner, and the comparison of risk (death) and reward (a mystical cure) is theirs to make. Depression and other mental illnesses are tragic afflictions, and suicides prompted by irrational feelings inevitability, excellently explained here, are not among those cases I am talking about.

That article also gives numerous examples of rational suicides; Animals ending their lives for the safety or propagation of their species. Our cultural narratives are full of noble sacrifices and heroic foolishness, death as a taboo is not a universal notion.

I take issue only with the declaration that life is always superior to death, not the argument you were using it in support of.
 

Chris Tian

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Ultrajoe said:
Chris Tian said:
This is complete and utter nonsense, being alive is always superior to being dead, because only if you are alive there is a chance of getting better, regardless of how slim that chance may be.
I have to butt in here, on my own account finally, to rebound your accusations of utter nonsense. Sometimes electing for death is a rational decision. Horrific disease, mental decay and impending suffering are all reasonable instances for ending your own life. Life has no value any more to its owner, and the comparison of risk (death) and reward (a mystical cure) is theirs to make. Depression and other mental illnesses are tragic afflictions, and suicides prompted by irrational feelings inevitability, excellently explained here, are not among those cases I am talking about.

That article also gives numerous examples of rational suicides; Animals ending their lives for the safety or propagation of their species. Our cultural narratives are full of noble sacrifices and heroic foolishness, death as a taboo is not a universal notion.

I take issue only with the declaration that life is always superior to death, not the argument you were using it in support of.
I want to take everything that involves sacraficing oneself or doing something with fatal risks and dying during that, out of the way first. The thing in those cases is, nobody chooses death over life there. They choose the consequences of their actions over their own life, if they could achive the same thing without risk of dying they would.

What I mean is that living is always a superior state of existance than being dead, since that is not existing at all. As long as you are alive, no matter the condition you are in there is a theoretical chance of it getting better, however small this chance might be.

Of course people can choose to not take the chance and end their life, if they feel these chances are too close to zero. But they are not getting better, they don't just end their suffering, they become nothing.

I will agree with you that in some cases the decision to end your life, because your chances of dying soon and feeling nothing but pain until then are as close to 100% as it can get, is perfectly understandable, even rational.

My point just is that even then you are not really "better" of. That might, of course, be coloured by my subjective definition of "better", since the definition of "good/better" is a very subjectiva one in basically any case.

Since we are at subjective things already, I would take any pain (as far as I can imagine) for even the slightest chance of "getting better".

I would be interested what your personal opinion is on that specific matter, would you rather die than suffer or suffer through anything you can imagine to live? I'm also curious what you opinion is on my "main"point in my previous post, that rape is by no means worse than murder.
 

Chris Tian

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solemnwar said:
The reason Rape is such a touchy subject is because we live in a Rape Culture.
It might be different where you live, but I have yet to encounter such a thing in reality, and I will heavily doubt its existence in any "firstworld-country/society".

I have never ever encountert a case where the majority of people said: "The rapeing was her own fault for wearing this sexy outfit" or anything the like. I belive of course that there will always be an occaisonal nutjob who says something like that, even though I never even met one of those (but thats most likely on me and my habbit to surround myself with, at least somewhat, sane human beings).

OT: I think rape should be ok to explore as a topic or part of the story in games. But I think it has no place as a gameplay mechanic or something done by the PC in your average game.
 

4RM3D

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darlarosa said:
Firtly rape and murder are very different things and the sense of violation experienced by victims very different.
*snip*
But how about the friends and family of the victim? In some cultures rape dishonors the family so much the victim might as well have died. Suicide is not uncommon there. In other cultures you are forced to marry the rapist. Yeah, that actually happens.

Rastelin said:
What do you suggest? Add rape to the games or remove the mindless killing to balance things up? The latter is not realistic as killing has been a part of games since the beginning.
I am quite happy to keep rape out of it. It adds nothing of worth other than to cater to sick perverts and victimize women. At least in GTA you can kill all sexes equally.
It doesn't have to be in a GTA setting. Rape could become a serious discussion and realistic depiction in a game.

The real issue isn't the rape when it's used in a story (in the game). The real issue is when it's used as a gameplay mechanic. But then again, I didn't specify it should be as a gameplay mechanic. I just said you should be able to discuss rape in games.

Gregory McMillan said:
Until a game can do a sex scene without messing it up, then we can talk about rape.
The opening scene of The Witcher 2 (and there are a few more scenes through out the game). I did not see that one coming. I heard the game was violent and mature, but this is the first time I have seen a sex scene in a game that works in context.
 

Ultrajoe

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Chris Tian said:
I would be interested what your personal opinion is on that specific matter, would you rather die than suffer or suffer through anything you can imagine to live? I'm also curious what you opinion is on my "main"point in my previous post, that rape is by no means worse than murder.
If I had a fatal disease, or something akin to Alzheimer's, I would consider ending my life. Beyond a certain point in the first case, I would not consider my life to hold much value, it would be mostly full of sadness and pain without a likely end. In the latter case, I would be unraveling at the mental level. I would want to end my life while I was still myself, and possessed of some coherence and dignity.

As for rape vs murder... apples and communist theory. They are very different crimes, that can unfold in many different ways. I think the details are too nuanced and the variables too subjective to try and quantify their evil or the harm done. I certainly see rape as a more intentionally cruel or, equally reprehensible, more coldly self-serving crime, but quantifying its effects is a tasteless effort.

Chris Tian said:
solemnwar said:
The reason Rape is such a touchy subject is because we live in a Rape Culture.
It might be different where you live, but I have yet to encounter such a thing in reality, and I will heavily doubt its existence in any "firstworld-country/society".

I have never ever encountert a case where the majority of people said: "The rapeing was her own fault for wearing this sexy outfit" or anything the like.
A rape culture is simply one in which rape is facilitated, in any small or large way, by the various mechanisms of the culture itself. Why is ours a rape culture? The best go-to example is as follows: girls are taught to avoid rapists but nowhere near as much time, effort or cultural energy is directing towards teaching boys not to rape. It is accepted that men will attempt to rape women, and that the cultural responsibility for prevention rests with the victims. As a guy, that concept is pretty goddamn insulting. That's all the term means, not that we're a culture that celebrates rape or venerates it. Hence, rape-culture. Not as alarming as its term implies, but perhaps more disturbing on the basis of its insidious nature.
 

Chris Tian

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Ultrajoe said:
As for rape vs murder... apples and communist theory. They are very different crimes, that can unfold in many different ways. I think the details are too nuanced and the variables too subjective to try and quantify their evil or the harm done. I certainly see rape as a more intentionally cruel or, equally reprehensible, more coldly self-serving crime, but quantifying its effects is a tasteless effort.
I see your point and definatly agree with you that murder can be done for various reasons but rape is always a "more intentionally cruel and coldly self-serving crime" like you say.

A rape culture is simply one in which rape is facilitated, in any small or large way, by the various mechanisms of the culture itself. Why is ours a rape culture? The best go-to example is as follows: girls are taught to avoid rapists but nowhere near as much time, effort or cultural energy is directing towards teaching boys not to rape. It is accepted that men will attempt to rape women, and that the cultural responsibility for prevention rests with the victims. As a guy, that concept is pretty goddamn insulting. That's all the term means, not that we're a culture that celebrates rape or venerates it. Hence, rape-culture. Not as alarming as its term implies, but perhaps more disturbing on the basis of its insidious nature.
First, I do get what "rape-culture" means. The person I quotet specifically stated that rape would "almost always" get blamed on the victim and I am enclined to say that this is in no first world sociaty the case.

To the point you make. Is that really true? Maybe its not specifically stated to every young boy "Do not rape" but isn't that kind of implied in the very basic core value of most societies that you should not harm others? And in my experience there is far more effort invested in teaching kids not to harm others than in teaching them how not to get raped.
 

JazzJack2

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Ultrajoe said:
A rape culture is simply one in which rape is facilitated, in any small or large way, by the various mechanisms of the culture itself. Why is ours a rape culture? The best go-to example is as follows: girls are taught to avoid rapists but nowhere near as much time, effort or cultural energy is directing towards teaching boys not to rape. It is accepted that men will attempt to rape women, and that the cultural responsibility for prevention rests with the victims. As a guy, that concept is pretty goddamn insulting. That's all the term means, not that we're a culture that celebrates rape or venerates it. Hence, rape-culture. Not as alarming as its term implies, but perhaps more disturbing on the basis of its insidious nature.
I am sorry but I don't see this at all, committing rape is seen as breaking the most basic forms of human morality and empathy and when cases of rape come up in the news even the coldest, most sociopathic newspapers like the Daily Mail won't attempt to blame the victim. There is universal hatred towards rapists and rape across all the developed world and people don't take it as trivially as you might suggest.
 

Chris Tian

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4RM3D said:
darlarosa said:
Firtly rape and murder are very different things and the sense of violation experienced by victims very different.
*snip*
But how about the friends and family of the victim? In some cultures rape dishonors the family so much the victim might as well have died. Suicide is not uncommon there. In other cultures you are forced to marry the rapist. Yeah, that actually happens.
I don't know if a culture that is so backwards and dark-age-y is a good example. Especially considering that most likely none of us live there. I assume that because people in those cultures tend to not have access to internet and games.

There are examples of cultures throughout history and all over the world that would challenge every moral value you can name. It would all boil down to "morals are subjective" and render any further discussion pointless.


Gregory McMillan said:
Until a game can do a sex scene without messing it up, then we can talk about rape.
The opening scene of The Witcher 2 (and there are a few more scenes through out the game). I did not see that one coming. I heard the game was violent and mature, but this is the first time I have seen a sex scene in a game that works in context.
You are right that The Witcher 2 is a prime example as to how it handles most of its sex scenes, but in most games romantic and sexual scenes come across very awkward and I too, don't really want to see a scene that includes rape on such a level.
 

Starik20X6

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Thought experiment time! The Joker is an unrepentant mass murderer. He slaughters anyone he pleases and will destroy countless lives for kicks. And at the same time, he's been voted the greatest villain in the history of fiction. Would he still be the most revered villain of all time if it was revealed he was a rapist? Would he still shift millions of dollars of merchandise? Would his face still adorn countless shirts? I don't think he would, because on some level, we know that rape is worse.
 

Ultrajoe

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Chris Tian said:
To the point you make. Is that really true? Maybe its not specifically stated to every young boy "Do not rape" but isn't that kind of implied in the very basic core value of most societies that you should not harm others? And in my experience there is far more effort invested in teaching kids not to harm others than in teaching them how not to get raped.
JazzJack2 said:
I am sorry but I don't see this at all, committing rape is seen as breaking the most basic forms of human morality and empathy and when cases of rape come up in the news even the coldest, most sociopathic newspapers like the Daily Mail won't attempt to blame the victim. There is universal hatred towards rapists and rape across all the developed world and people don't take it as trivially as you might suggest.
You are both right, and rape is considered reprehensible in most countries, even those we tend to think of as backwards in regards to sexual liberties still treat unlawful or unrighteous sexual assault as heinous (they just have less situations where it is unlawful or unrighteous). But, while it is implied that rape is problematic the world over, why is it that women are taught specifically and pointedly how to avoid rapists while young men are not taught, directly, not to rape? Our culture is lined with male-as-actor conventions; playing hard to get, women denying sex as a form of punishment and a hundred thousand media conventions that depict a relationship as a man conquering a woman. I mean, the pick up artist community is based entirely on a notion of man-wins-sex and even if they are a thousand times less numerous, charming and/or successful than the cultural understanding would depict them, there's no denying that in most portrayals they do get a lot of action. I don't say this as a list of grievances, but a list of common examples that follow a similar theme; sex is something a man has to coerce, or win, from a woman.

I mean, step back from the rape-culture term and what I said earlier, doesn't our media and library of recurring stories use that idea a lot? The hero gets the girl, as roughly a billion tales go. There are definitely exceptions, many of them recent, but the bulk of our cultural makeup is one in which men get, and think about that word, sex from women. The bride is presented to the groom, not the other way around.

Why am I pointing this out? Because that's not sexual equality. Women are horny, horny fucks. Because they're human, and humans love us some sex. Stories where a man doesn't win sex, but rather wants it and so does a likely partner, are overwhelmed by the kinds of examples I presented above. We're a people for whom sex is a commodity surrendered by women, not an activity both parties get a ton of fun out of.

So, why did I post all of that stuff? Because it relates to a central point; we aren't a society with underlying sexual equality. We're a lot closer than most, and a lost closer than we were 50 years ago, but it's still not there. That's why girls are taught not to walk alone at night, and guys aren't sat down and told not to rape women alone in the dark. Rape is all about power, even if you think everything else I've said is utter horseshit this fact is fairly stone-set. Committed by women or men, in the vast majority of cases, a 'typical' rape (and there's a sadly colossal amount of data to determine that) is about power, about claiming something. While we still think that 'something' is a gendered activity, we're still a rape culture.

Take a look here if you don't think what I've said has relevance.

EDIT: I mean, who do you assume is the agressor when you hear the word 'rape'? If you don't automatically assume a gender, then I salute you, but most people assume that it was a man committing the crime, which itself is telling.
 

Scott Rothman

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.............I'm not even going to touch this thread. Are you really complaining that people hate rape too much and don't hate non-sexual violence enough?