Rape vs Violence: A Double Standard

[Chris Tian]

To the point you make. Is that really true? Maybe its not specifically stated to every young boy "Do not rape" but isn't that kind of implied in the very basic core value of most societies that you should not harm others? And in my experience there is far more effort invested in teaching kids not to harm others than in teaching them how not to get raped.

I am sorry but I don't see this at all, committing rape is seen as breaking the most basic forms of human morality and empathy and when cases of rape come up in the news even the coldest, most sociopathic newspapers like the Daily Mail won't attempt to blame the victim. There is universal hatred towards rapists and rape across all the developed world and people don't take it as trivially as you might suggest.

You are both right, and rape is considered reprehensible in most countries, even those we tend to think of as backwards in regards to sexual liberties still treat unlawful or unrighteous sexual assault as heinous (they just have less situations where it is unlawful or unrighteous). But, while it is implied that rape is problematic the world over, why is it that women are taught specifically and pointedly how to avoid rapists while young men are not taught, directly, not to rape? Our culture is lined with male-as-actor conventions; playing hard to get, women denying sex as a form of punishment and a hundred thousand media conventions that depict a relationship as a man conquering a woman. I mean, the pick up artist community is based entirely on a notion of man-wins-sex and even if they are a thousand times less numerous, charming and/or successful than the cultural understanding would depict them, there's no denying that in most portrayals they do get a lot of action. I don't say this as a list of grievances, but a list of common examples that follow a similar theme; sex is something a man has to coerce, or win, from a woman.

I mean, step back from the rape-culture term and what I said earlier, doesn't our media and library of recurring stories use that idea a lot? The hero gets the girl, as roughly a billion tales go. There are definitely exceptions, many of them recent, but the bulk of our cultural makeup is one in which men get, and think about that word, sex from women. The bride is presented to the groom, not the other way around.

Why am I pointing this out? Because that's not sexual equality. Women are horny, horny fucks. Because they're human, and humans love us some sex. Stories where a man doesn't win sex, but rather wants it and so does a likely partner, are overwhelmed by the kinds of examples I presented above. We're a people for whom sex is a commodity surrendered by women, not an activity both parties get a ton of fun out of.

So, why did I post all of that stuff? Because it relates to a central point; we aren't a society with underlying sexual equality. We're a lot closer than most, and a lost closer than we were 50 years ago, but it's still not there. That's why girls are taught not to walk alone at night, and guys aren't sat down and told not to rape women alone in the dark. Rape is all about power, even if you think everything else I've said is utter horseshit this fact is fairly stone-set. Committed by women or men, in the vast majority of cases, a 'typical' rape (and there's a sadly colossal amount of data to determine that) is about power, about claiming something. While we still think that 'something' is a gendered activity, we're still a rape culture.

Take a look here if you don't think what I've said has relevance.

You are completely right that we do not live in a society of sexual-equality, there is absolutely no arguing that. But I think that its a very far stretch from that, to something that could be called a "rape-culture".

As for your specific example of girls being taught specifically how to avoid rape and boys not being specifically taught not to rape, thats a matter of efficiency.

Its far easier to teach a young boy core values that can be applied to a myrad of life-situations than to give him a miles long list of what specifically not to do. On the other hand its far more efficient, from a tactical point of view, to teach somebody how to avoid a very specific threat as to try to tech them some basic principle to avoid all threats.

Edit: Of course I assume the attacker is a man, first of men are in most cases physically at an advantage, secondly is it far harder for a women to rape a men since she needs to administer chemicals or pharmaceuticals.

 

[4RM3D]

... and from what i've heard of the 'rape scene' in new Tomb Raider, didn't if you fail that the guy just killed her? so while he's being all creepy, yes, but its not REALLY rape... though it would make sense in the context...

Indeed. It was more implied; fighting for survival vs natural instinct. A lot of people made a fuss about the scene before the game was released. But after the discussion quickly died out.

fuck half my issue with visual media is "if they can do it in books why not -insert media here-?" because seriously, books is free reign... suppose the audio/visuals are just an added push on the trauma scale or something *shrugs* psychologically is more disturbing then just imagining it in your own head i suppose...

Well, in the Game of Thrones book the girl was 13 years old. If they wanted to show that on television, even when using an actress older than 18, that would have been too much.

Books have it easy. I guess the hierarchy goes: reading it (books), watching it (movies), doing it (games).

 

[Smeatza]

Thought experiment time! The Joker is an unrepentant mass murderer. He slaughters anyone he pleases and will destroy countless lives for kicks. And at the same time, he's been voted the greatest villain in the history of fiction. Would he still be the most revered villain of all time if it was revealed he was a rapist? Would he still shift millions of dollars of merchandise? Would his face still adorn countless shirts? I don't think he would, because on some level, we know that rape is worse.

Freddy Krueger, Sabretooth (Marvel), Glen Quagmire, Pyramid Head, Hercules (DC).
With the possible exception of Hercules these are all very popular characters.
Hell DC comics even has a female rapist on it's roster (Shado).
And I don't even watch/read Game of Thrones, I hear there are many popular rapist characters in that show.

Rape is certainly a more mature subject than murder (due to the sexual element), so the most popular villain is never going to be one that is associated with such a mature, audience-limiting subject.

 

[Ultrajoe]

But I think that its a very far stretch from that, to something that could be called a "rape-culture".

Why? I get what that sentence means, but why is it so hard to apply that term? We're a culture that holds a lot of gender disparity, a great deal of sexual assault and a veritable legion of cultural tropes that reinforce these problems. If I'm right, as you have said, about the disparities between the sexes... then what's the difficulty in using the term rape-culture? Why is it a far cry? Rape happens a lot, our culture is obsessed with some creepy, rape-ish ideas (men take sex from women, even in the nicely depicted romances) and

I want to ask a question, one that I hope won't offend you but fear it might; Does the idea that we live in something that *could* be called a rape culture offend you?

As for your specific example of girls being taught specifically how to avoid rape and boys not being specifically taught not to rape, thats a matter of efficiency.

Its far easier to teach a young boy core values that can be applied to a myrad of life-situations than to give him a miles long list of what specifically not to do. On the other hand its far more efficient, from a tactical point of view, to teach somebody how to avoid a very specific threat as to try to tech them some basic principle to avoid all threats.

If that's true, why do young men have trouble spotting the difference between media intended for them as sexual counsel and the defensive comments of convicted rapists? If young men didn't need to be taught specific examples to avoid committing rape, why does it still occur? Should driving education consist of a mantra that reads 'Respect other drivers and stay safe', and not a process of learning all the rules associated with safe operation of a motor vehicle? It's much more efficient. Since when is 'Practice sex ethically' not a core value we should use exactly as you say; to cover a miles-long list of different examples?

And, to follow on with this; How would that list be miles long? We already teach our children thousands of moral exceptions every day, our constructs of etiquette are automatically taught out of habit ('Now say please') and are shockingly complex. I'm not asking for a boot camp that covers every instance of sexual assault, but just a simple principal; 'Don't rape'. How do you not rape? Get an unequivocal 'Yes' before any sexual encounter. I mean, it's not rocket science.

And the fact that there is a 'very specific threat' that dis-proportionally targets women isn't indicative of a culture with a problem of rape? Is there a term for that, I wonder?

 

[Smeatza]

snip

We also don't teach our male children not to commit genocide, or not to enslave people, or not to be cannibals.

An individual that is prepared to rape is not normal. Educating young boys not to rape is a wasted effort, because they are either never going to rape anyone in the first place, or there is something wrong with them that simple education will not fix.

 

[Ultrajoe]

snip

We also don't teach our male children not to commit genocide, or not to enslave people, or not to be cannibals.

An individual that is prepared to rape is not normal. Educating young boys not to rape is a wasted effort, because they are either never going to rape anyone in the first place, or there is something wrong with them that simple education will not fix.

Really? So is this class just full of rapists or is there maybe something wrong with the way we teach children about consent?

http://accidentaldevotional.com/2013/03/19/the-day-i-taught-how-not-to-rape/

Why do so many rapists defend themselves with the idea that what they did could happen to anyone, that everyone does it and that it's normal? That's either the most uniform pathology in the world or they're just fucked up people who didn't know any better. What's wrong with telling them straight up what's right and wrong? Why is this idea offensive?

EDIT: And we do teach them not to do those things, by the way. Hitler is the go-to example of evil across most of the developed world. Cannibals are nigh-universally depicted as evil and cruel, and slavery has been the watchword for abusive behavior for so long it's reflexive. It's ingrained in our culture that these things are bad, we teach it with every negative example we provide to ourselves.

We don't send the same message about rape. That's why Steubenville coverage couldn't get over the fact that the poor rapists lives had been ruined by their own... deliberate sexual assault, I guess? That's why the victim was subjected to mockery, threats and even the initial assault itself. Multiple news stations covered the fact that these kids were normal, upstanding boys on their way to successful lives, not fringe cases to be written off as time-bombs who just went off. That's why our cultural depictions of romance can't get over the idea of men as uncontrollable sexual gluttons. Beauty and the Beast, the 'Tale as Old as Time', is about an abusive relationship whose victim must tame and comfort her abuser. And that's a kid's movie, for Christ's sake! If we treated rape like we did cannibalism, genocide and slavery, there'd be a lot fucking less of it.

 

[Chris Tian]

But I think that its a very far stretch from that, to something that could be called a "rape-culture".

Why? I get what that sentence means, but why is it so hard to apply that term? We're a that holds a lot of gender disparity, a great deal of sexual assault and a veritable legion of cultural tropes that reinforce these problems. If I'm right, as you have said, about the disparities between the sexes... then what's the difficulty in using the term rape-culture? Why is it a far cry? Rape happens a lot, our culture is obsessed with some creepy, rape-ish ideas (men take sex from women, even in the nicely depicted romances) and

I want to ask a question, one that I hope won't offend you but fear it might; Does the idea that we live in something that *could* be called a rape culture offend you?

First I'm not offended, its pretty hard to offend me.

I do get your point, but if you look at it that way, then we are also a murder-culture, thief-culture, racist-culture... and the term becomes meaningless again. Calling it a rape culture somehow implies, at least for me, that rape is a far bigger problem than other things of equal nature.

As for your specific example of girls being taught specifically how to avoid rape and boys not being specifically taught not to rape, thats a matter of efficiency.

Its far easier to teach a young boy core values that can be applied to a myrad of life-situations than to give him a miles long list of what specifically not to do. On the other hand its far more efficient, from a tactical point of view, to teach somebody how to avoid a very specific threat as to try to tech them some basic principle to avoid all threats.

If that's true, why do young men have trouble spotting the difference between media intended for them as sexual counsel and the defensive comments of convicted rapists?

Well its a bit hard to argue an article who doesn't really quote anything specific and is clearly intended to shock people (not by you by the author) and has very little scientific value.

I can just say that some basic mindsets will be similar, both might see women as sexual objects, its still very different since one group choose to employ violance to get what they want.

If young men didn't need to be taught specific examples to avoid committing rape, why does it still occur?

Again I can just say murder happens too, are we a murder-culture too? And do we to little to prevent murders?

Since when is 'Practice sex ethically' not a core value we should use exactly as you say; to cover a miles-long list of different examples?

And, to follow on with this; How would that list be miles long? We already teach our children thousands of moral exceptions every day, our constructs of etiquette are automatically taught out of habit ('Now say please') and are shockingly complex. I'm not asking for a boot camp that covers every instance of sexual assault, but just a simple principal; 'Don't rape'. How do you not rape? Get an unequivocal 'Yes' before any sexual encounter. I mean, it's not rocket science.

Well again, I think thats coverd with:

"Do not use violance to get what you want"

There is no real need to sinlge out:

"Do not use violance to get sex"

The later statement is specific and the first one is the core value that already covers it.

And the fact that there is a 'very specific threat' that dis-proportionally targets women isn't indicative of a culture with a problem of rape? Is there a term for that, I wonder?

And again I can just say that rape is not an disproportional problem in our culture so the term "rape-culture" is not really appropriate. Of course you are right that its dis-proportionally a problem for women, but so are bar-fights for men and I have never heard the term "bar-fight culture".

Like i stated earlier, the term "rape culture" blows the problem of rape out of proportion compared to other problems our society faces. Dont get me wrong I am not saying rape is not a problem or a little problem, its just not a bigger problem than other violent crimes.

 

[KOMega]

I think violence is one thing whereas rape is tackling two things (or perhaps more).

Rape is the combination of both violence and sexual conduct.

Now say what you will about nudity or sexual acts or whatever. Whatever your stance on it is, we can agree that the majority of people don't like even the idea of nudity in public eyes.

So when people compare violence and rape, it's comparing A and A+B.
A=/=A+B unless B is treated as moot.

 

[Ultrajoe]

Like i stated earlier, the term "rape culture" blows the problem of rape out of proportion compared to other problems our society faces. Dont get me wrong I am not saying rape is not a problem or a little problem, its just not a bigger problem than other violent crimes.

But you're talking in circles here, you previously said you get what rape-culture means, in response to me saying:

A rape culture is simply one in which rape is facilitated, in any small or large way, by the various mechanisms of the culture itself.

And now you're saying that this doesn't apply because we have other problems, similar in severity. What you need to remember is that I'm not arguing from the perspective that 'rape happens, we're a rape culture', but that our culture facilitates rape by its nature. We aren't a bar-fight culture because the majority of depictions of a pub don't include the message that bar-fights are a fundamental dynamic of drinking alcohol. As I said in a post above, genocide, cannibalism and slavery are taught to be unequivocally evil by the media we consume. Django Unchained, whatever else you think of it, was permitted to depict the cruel and painful deaths of scores of people because they were slavers. We, as a culture, hold it as undeniable that these crimes are unforgivable and totally wrong, and rejoiced to see them die. If you think Django was a terrible example, see basically any action film for the same thing. Rambo, anyone? They're evil, kill 'em all.

We might well be called a murder-culture, as you say (you can be both), given how much our media loves to portray it done for righteous reasons. But as I said earlier in this thread, when I posted accidentally as Labyrinth, murder and rape are differentiated by the fact that rape is never justified in and of itself (you can play thought experiments about truckloads of babies dying if you don't rape someone, but that's so juvenile it's not funny, that's selecting for utility and mitigation, not justification).

And yeah, we *are* a racist culture, why else is this such a common disparity?

Calling us a rape-culture doesn't preclude us from being other things. We're also a musical culture, an honor-culture, a family-culture and a whole bunch of positive things too. Those things are reinforced by our media, our narratives and our expectations. It's just who we are. I'm just saying that our gender-biases, as equally automatic as our love of music, contribute to instances of sexual assault. Our culture enables, to some degree, rape. That's all rape-culture means, and I think I've demonstrated that this occurs. That's what me talking about gender depictions and media tropes was all about.

Well its a bit hard to argue an article who doesn't really quote anything specific and is clearly intended to shock people (not by you by the author) and has very little scientific value.

Just to weigh in here, what's not scientific about it? They had controls, multiple variations on each experiment and they declared only what the data indicates pretty clearly; readers of lad's mags have trouble telling the difference between rapists and their chosen magazine. How is that done for shock value? How is that unscientific? Here's a link to an article that contains some of the quotes used, for further reference. I admit I would like to see the data directly myself, but unless you think they're outright lying the results presented are not an unreasonable conclusion.

 

[Denamic]

War and violence is bad, but it's also something we do normally. Even little kids playfight all the time and sometimes actually fight. I don't remember any kids playing rape.

But you surely have seen a kid kissing another when the other clearly doesn't want to get kissed, yes? I remember it happening quite often in my area when I was younger, and the kisser was having a hell of a time. It's just that kissing is the go-to thing because they don't understand how sex works yet.

Not saying that kids would go around raping one another if given the choice, just pointing out that demonstrations of affection and control in a not completely violent way still occur with the younger people.

That reminds me. Back when I was a kid, 8-10ish years old, there were this girl who were a year older than me living a couple of houses down the road. She was dominant as hell, and every single time we played, she'd come up with some reason or other to force me to kiss her. Every goddamn time. At least I built up my immune system against cooties.

OT: We've long had a strong anti-sex attitude in the west. Sex is immoral, dirty, etc. Just bringing up sex in a conversation in a less 'liberal' area makes people uncomfortable. It's ridiculous, and I think it's this social taboo that's the fundamental cause for the double standard against rape in media. Murder is objectively worse, and we're (mostly) fine with that. No amount of mental gymnastics will change that.

I mean, worst case of rape in games as far as I'm aware is RapeLay. You rape the girls. They get traumatized, but they'll live, and possibly cope. In almost any open world game, like Skyrim, Fallout, GTA, whatever... SPONTANEOUS MURDER SPREE! They're now dead. Forever deprived of everything, and their surviving families can do nothing but mourn. But look! I've reanimated their corpses and are making them kill their own families! Haha, that's so funny!

 

[Darken12]

I don't think the question is "why is rape such a bad thing?", but "why are we so casual and flippant about the horrors of war, the thoughtless ending of lives and the visceral agony of the dying?"

While I definitely agree that we shouldn't be censoring video games (or any other art form), I also feel that the death of critical thought is the death of the human spirit itself. Should we ban games like Rapelay? No. Should we shut down critical thought and discourse about those games? Also no.

We should criticise games that glorify and exult in violence, rape, war and murder. We should talk about them. We should speculate and investigate and gather scientific data on why those games are made, what needs are being satisfied by their creation/purchase, who plays them (and why), and what impact they have on many different types of individuals (whether positive or negative). We should discuss these games calmly and rationally. And even if scientific evidence is found that they indeed cause any negative effects (and that's quite a big if), we should treat them the way we treat cigarettes or alcohol, as products that are perfectly legal but fit only for adults and which carry due warnings about their potential effects.

Above all, I believe that we should strive to discuss these issues with calm.

 

[Chris Tian]

Like i stated earlier, the term "rape culture" blows the problem of rape out of proportion compared to other problems our society faces. Dont get me wrong I am not saying rape is not a problem or a little problem, its just not a bigger problem than other violent crimes.

But you're talking in circles here, you previously said you get what rape-culture means, in response to me saying:

A rape culture is simply one in which rape is facilitated, in any small or large way, by the various mechanisms of the culture itself.

And now you're saying that this doesn't apply because we have other problems, similar in severity. What you need to remember is that I'm not arguing from the perspective that 'rape happens, we're a rape culture', but that our culture facilitates rape by its nature. We aren't a bar-fight culture because the majority of depictions of a pub don't include the message that bar-fights are a fundamental dynamic of drinking alcohol. As I said in a post above, genocide, cannibalism and slavery are taught to be unequivocally evil by the media we consume. Django Unchained, whatever else you think of it, was permitted to depict the cruel and painful deaths of scores of people because they were slavers. We, as a culture, hold it as undeniable that these crimes are unforgivable and totally wrong, and rejoiced to see them die. If you think Django was a terrible example, see basically any action film for the same thing. Rambo, anyone? They're evil, kill 'em all.

We might well be called a murder-culture, as you say (you can be both), given how much our media loves to portray it done for righteous reasons. But as I said earlier in this thread, when I posted accidentally as Labyrinth, murder and rape are differentiated by the fact that rape is never justified in and of itself (you can play thought experiments about truckloads of babies dying if you don't rape someone, but that's so juvenile it's not funny, that's selecting for utility and mitigation, not justification).

And yeah, we *are* a racist culture, why else is this such a common disparity?

Calling us a rape-culture doesn't preclude us from being other things. We're also a musical culture, an honor-culture, a family-culture and a whole bunch of positive things too. Those things are reinforced by our media, our narratives and our expectations. It's just who we are. I'm just saying that our gender-biases, as equally automatic as our love of music, contribute to instances of sexual assault. Our culture enables, to some degree, rape. That's all rape-culture means, and I think I've demonstrated that this occurs. That's what me talking about gender depictions and media tropes was all about.

Well its a bit hard to argue an article who doesn't really quote anything specific and is clearly intended to shock people (not by you by the author) and has very little scientific value.

Just to weigh in here, what's not scientific about it? They had controls, multiple variations on each experiment and they declared only what the data indicates pretty clearly; readers of lad's mags have trouble telling the difference between rapists and their chosen magazine. How is that done for shock value? How is that unscientific? Here's a link to an article that contains some of the quotes used, for further reference. I admit I would like to see the data directly myself, but unless you think they're outright lying the results presented are not an unreasonable conclusion.

I think the thing is we dont really argue the term itself but how its applied. You would call it rape culture and racist culture and a murder culture too, for me a term like that indicates rape/racism/murder is a disproportionally big problem.

Saying our society facilitates rape because of some gender roles/inequalitys is a bit like saying it facilitates murder because i can go buy a knife and even learn how to use it in combat.

You could probably argue the later is true, and I would argue its hyperbole.

To come back to the intial topic, since we are, like you say, a murder culture and a rape culture, the term is meaningless in a rape compared to violance discussion. And since we are all those things the term means nothing at all to me, and I think I'm not alone there because you only read that on some corners in the internet. At least I never encountert that term in RL.

As for the study, I think comparing some quotes out of context means nothing, shows nothing, thats a bit like saying: "Every murderer drinks water." Both rapists and the readers of the magazine are horny males that want sex, sure there will be similar quotes regarding that topic. Its like asking a assassin and a car salesmen what they want to do with their next paycheck, most likely there will me similaritys, but those say nothing about how both guys make their money.

 

[Ultrajoe]

I think the thing is we dont really argue the term itself but how its applied. You would call it rape culture and racist culture and a murder culture too, for me a term like that indicates rape/racism/murder is a disproportionally big problem.

But in doing so you're redefining the term, unjustly, so you can dismiss it. Rape culture just means that our society facilitates rape, that's what it means, you can't change the meaning of the term and then brush it off under those definitions. That's a textbook logical fallacy. you *do*, however, challenge my assertion that we meet the criterion for being a rape culture with your next comment:

Saying our society facilitates rape because of some gender roles/inequalitys is a bit like saying it facilitates murder because i can go buy a knife and even learn how to use it in combat.

You could probably argue the later is true, and I would argue its hyperbole.

Well no I wouldn't argue that, because not only is it hyperbole it is also entirely wrong. The comparison doesn't exist, you aren't offering a fair equivalent to our social attitudes towards sex for murder, which is baffling because you've provided them earlier in our discussion. We don't facilitate rape because it's possible and you can physically do it, we facilitate it by depicting sexual exploitation and the coercion of sex as natural and desirable. I feel like a broken record, but it really is the same point as I've been trying to make all this time; our culture is flawed and it directly or indirectly leads to more sexual assault than there would be if we weren't this way. That's why it's a problem.

To come back to the intial topic, since we are, like you say, a murder culture and a rape culture, the term is meaningless in a rape compared to violance discussion. And since we are all those things the term means nothing at all to me, and I think I'm not alone there because you only read that on some corners in the internet. At least I never encountert that term in RL.

I agree we have gotten off topic, I did not bring the term up initially but disliked the way it was being dismissed incorrectly in the discussion. But, just for clarity, is the second part of this section really implying that because most people don't care it doesn't matter?

As for the study, I think comparing some quotes out of context means nothing, shows nothing, thats a bit like saying: "Every murderer drinks water." Both rapists and the readers of the magazine are horny males that want sex, sure there will be similar quotes regarding that topic. Its like asking a assassin and a car salesmen what they want to do with their next paycheck, most likely there will me similaritys, but those say nothing about how both guys make their money.

Another logical fallacy. Here's the quotes we have access to:

Spoiler: Rapist or Men's Magazine?

1. There's a certain way you can tell that a girl wants to have sex . . . The way they dress, they flaunt themselves.

2. Some girls walk around in short-shorts . . . showing their body off . . . It just starts a man thinking that if he gets something like that, what can he do with it?

3. A girl may like anal sex because it makes her feel incredibly naughty and she likes feeling like a dirty slut. If this is the case, you can try all sorts of humiliating acts to help live out her filthy fantasy.

4. Mascara running down the cheeks means they've just been crying, and it was probably your fault . . . but you can cheer up the miserable beauty with a bit of the old in and out.

5. What burns me up sometimes about girls is dick-teasers. They lead a man on and then shut him off right there.

6. Filthy talk can be such a turn on for a girl . . . no one wants to be shagged by a mouse . . . A few compliments won't do any harm either . . . ?I bet you want it from behind you dirty whore' . . .

7. You know girls in general are all right. But some of them are bitches . . . The bitches are the type that . . . need to have it stuffed to them hard and heavy.

8. Escorts . . . they know exactly how to turn a man on. I've given up on girlfriends. They don't know how to satisfy me, but escorts do.

9. You'll find most girls will be reluctant about going to bed with somebody or crawling in the back seat of a car . . . But you can usually seduce them, and they'll do it willingly.

10. There's nothing quite like a woman standing in the dock accused of murder in a sex game gone wrong . . . The possibility of murder does bring a certain frisson to the bedroom.

11. Girls ask for it by wearing these mini-skirts and hotpants . . . they're just displaying their body . . . Whether they realise it or not they're saying, ?Hey, I've got a beautiful body, and it's yours if you want it.'

12. You do not want to be caught red-handed . . . go and smash her on a park bench. That used to be my trick.

13. Some women are domineering, but I think it's more or less the man who should put his foot down. The man is supposed to be the man. If he acts the man, the woman won't be domineering.

14. I think if a law is passed, there should be a dress code . . . When girls dress in those short skirts and things like that, they're just asking for it.

15. Girls love being tied up . . . it gives them the chance to be the helpless victim.

16. I think girls are like plasticine, if you warm them up you can do anything you want with them.

Young men couldn't tell which of these were said by a rapist, and which were said by a publication that they read as a form of sexual advice. Yeah, the assassin and the car salesman both buy milk. We can deduce from that that they both enjoy milk. Both the magazine writers and the rapists agree that abusive, exploitative, sexist and aggressive behavior towards women is an acceptable way to go about your sexual life. You don't see a problem with that? You say 'sure there will be similar quotes regarding the topic', but read the damn quotes,

'You know girls in general are all right. But some of them are bitches . . . The bitches are the type that . . . need to have it stuffed to them hard and heavy.'

That's one that explicitly says women he dislikes need to be violently fucked (and given he's a rapist (revealed in the source article), that would probably imply that he didn't care much for what she wanted). And magazine readers couldn't determine this from something they would read daily. And you honestly think that's the same as comparing a shopping list from an assassin and a car salesman. Really? And do you honestly think that doesn't imply that those young men, at least, had a fucked up view of relationships? Yeah, both they and the rapists wanted to get laid, and they were indistinguishable in their efforts to do so. You do know what a rapists efforts to get sex are, right?

It would be more apt to see if car buyers could tell the difference between advertisements for cars and murders. And if they can't, then that *does* say something valid about the way we think about hired killers and a new 4x4.

 

[bz316]

The main difference is the issue of purpose. Killing and violence, while deplorable, can be used in defense or to achieve a greater goal. Rape has no purpose except to abuse and demean another human being for your own twisted pleasure. One can kill or harm in self-defense or for a cause. The same cannot be said of sexual assault.

 

[Smeatza]

Really? So is this class just full of rapists or is there maybe something wrong with the way we teach children about consent? http://accidentaldevotional.com/2013/03/19/the-day-i-taught-how-not-to-rape/

A room full of inexperienced people is not the same as a room full of potential rapists, you are sensationalising.
Would you call a room full of medical students a room full of potential murderers?
I wonder if the answers would be any different if the question asked was ?Is it morally sound to force somebody to do something they don?t want to do??
I doubt that account is completely accurate as well.
"Something wrong with the way we teach children about consent" -spot on. This falls under the woefully inept and inadequate sex education provided to children today.

Why do so many rapists defend themselves with the idea that what they did could happen to anyone, that everyone does it and that it's normal?

Maybe because they aren't telling the truth. Certainly not about western developed society.
Do we actually have any statistics to support the idea that all or even most rapists claim this? not that I doubt it, just that I?m interested.

That's either the most uniform pathology in the world or they're just fucked up people who didn't know any better. What's wrong with telling them straight up what's right and wrong? Why is this idea offensive?

Perhaps I?ve done a poor job of explaining myself.
I'm not saying the idea is offensive, the idea that the current status quo is the product of inequality is silly.
We shouldn't have to tell people rape is wrong in developed western society. We should be comfortable enough with sex, sexual subjects and discussing them with our children, for them to connect what they know about assault, and what they should know about consent, and reach the natural conclusion that rape is wrong.
On the other hand, rape as a sexual deviancy will exist as long as mental illness exists. It will always (for the foreseeable future at least) be justifiable to tell young girls about the dangers of going out alone .

 

[Gorrath]

Whether one thinks we live in a rape culture or a murder culture, or whether one thinks that rape can never be justified (it can't, and neither can torture), there seems to be an element missing from this discussion. What difference does it make whether something is justifiable in real life? These are games built for the purpose of entertainment and exploration of themes. Whether an act in a game is justifiable in real life has absolutely no bearing on fantasy in any way, shape or form.

One might claim that having the PC callously rape another being in a game is only something perverts would want. Again, so what? I could just as easily argue that having the PC callously drive over a prostitute or shoot a nun in the head for the fun of it is only something perverts would want. It does not matter if rape and murder aren't the same. You might think such portrayals of rape are sick, tasteless, and pointless. So what? If you don't like the content, don't buy it.

Rape in a game might be handled for narrative purposes or simply for fetishists to get their jollies. NO matter what the reason or how classless the depiction, no one is forcing anyone to consume the content. The minute we accept arguments like "Rape is just too taboo" we open up a floodgate of self-appointed moral authorities clamoring to decide what should and should not be included in video games. Or if you make the argument "Rape can be depicted but not as a game mechanic" you end up in the same boat. It doesn't matter if you think rape is worse than murder for fun because there is certainly someone else who thinks the murder is just as bad.

I'm not even making a slippery slope argument here. It's simply a case of either we accept censorship in the medium or we don't. I find censorship to be far worse than any fictional portrayal of anything. I personally have no interest in a game about a person who commits rape. I also have no interest in Manhunt, but neither would I take the position that either game shouldn't exist. Rape is in fact not the same as murder, but censorship is censorship no matter how you cut it.

 

[Ihateregistering1]

Like i stated earlier, the term "rape culture" blows the problem of rape out of proportion compared to other problems our society faces. Dont get me wrong I am not saying rape is not a problem or a little problem, its just not a bigger problem than other violent crimes.

But you're talking in circles here, you previously said you get what rape-culture means, in response to me saying:

A rape culture is simply one in which rape is facilitated, in any small or large way, by the various mechanisms of the culture itself.

And now you're saying that this doesn't apply because we have other problems, similar in severity. What you need to remember is that I'm not arguing from the perspective that 'rape happens, we're a rape culture', but that our culture facilitates rape by its nature. We aren't a bar-fight culture because the majority of depictions of a pub don't include the message that bar-fights are a fundamental dynamic of drinking alcohol. As I said in a post above, genocide, cannibalism and slavery are taught to be unequivocally evil by the media we consume. Django Unchained, whatever else you think of it, was permitted to depict the cruel and painful deaths of scores of people because they were slavers. We, as a culture, hold it as undeniable that these crimes are unforgivable and totally wrong, and rejoiced to see them die. If you think Django was a terrible example, see basically any action film for the same thing. Rambo, anyone? They're evil, kill 'em all.

We might well be called a murder-culture, as you say (you can be both), given how much our media loves to portray it done for righteous reasons. But as I said earlier in this thread, when I posted accidentally as Labyrinth, murder and rape are differentiated by the fact that rape is never justified in and of itself (you can play thought experiments about truckloads of babies dying if you don't rape someone, but that's so juvenile it's not funny, that's selecting for utility and mitigation, not justification).

And yeah, we *are* a racist culture, why else is this such a common disparity?

Calling us a rape-culture doesn't preclude us from being other things. We're also a musical culture, an honor-culture, a family-culture and a whole bunch of positive things too. Those things are reinforced by our media, our narratives and our expectations. It's just who we are. I'm just saying that our gender-biases, as equally automatic as our love of music, contribute to instances of sexual assault. Our culture enables, to some degree, rape. That's all rape-culture means, and I think I've demonstrated that this occurs. That's what me talking about gender depictions and media tropes was all about.

Well its a bit hard to argue an article who doesn't really quote anything specific and is clearly intended to shock people (not by you by the author) and has very little scientific value.

Just to weigh in here, what's not scientific about it? They had controls, multiple variations on each experiment and they declared only what the data indicates pretty clearly; readers of lad's mags have trouble telling the difference between rapists and their chosen magazine. How is that done for shock value? How is that unscientific? Here's a link to an article that contains some of the quotes used, for further reference. I admit I would like to see the data directly myself, but unless you think they're outright lying the results presented are not an unreasonable conclusion.

A few things.

For starters, this U of Surrey is extraordinarily dubious on multiple accounts. I read through the quotes used, and only 2 of them actually say anything about forcing a woman to do something against her will (11, 13), and these quotes themselves are somewhat dubious. You can argue that #7 does, but anytime a quote has multiple '...' smack in the middle of it, I take it with an enormous grain of salt. Likewise, I can almost guarantee that you could produce similar results by talking to convicted murderers about how they killed people and then having gamers talk about kills they made and get similar results with asking people "which came from gamers and which came from convicted murderers?" Does that prove that we live in a murder culture? I guess you could argue we do.

The "What would you do?" portion is the result of statistics, not racism or sexism. Blacks commit a disproportionately larger amount of petty theft than whites do in the US. That's not a racist statement, it's fact, and any Law Enforcement professional will back it up (I would provide the FBI crime database link, but it seems down right now). Likewise, men commit FAR more petty theft than women do, so it makes sense that people will be more suspect when a guy is attempting to break a lock than when a woman is. The fact that she was hot adds a whole other dimension with the "beauty=good" aspect, but that's a discussion for another day.

EDIT: I mean, who do you assume is the agressor when you hear the word 'rape'? If you don't automatically assume a gender, then I salute you, but most people assume that it was a man committing the crime, which itself is telling.

Yes, it's telling that they are intelligent people making a justified assumption. 99% of rapes in the US are committed by men (that's against both men and women). Again, statistics.

Look, if you want to declare that we live in a "rape culture" that's fine, but the whole idea of "we shouldn't teach women how to avoid rape, we should teach men not to rape" is a complete cop out. By that logic, I could say "we shouldn't teach people not to leave their keys in their car, we should teach people not to steal cars". If it were that incredibly simple, crime (and not just rape) would have been eliminated years ago. We should, of course, do what we can to teach people that rape, theft, murder, assault, etc. are terrible and should not be done, but the notion that there's something wrong with having people exercise reasonable judgment in order to avoid becoming victims of crimes is ludicrous. Crime will never go away 100%, and proclaiming that asking people to take steps to avoid becoming the victims of crime is somehow "victim-blaming" or contributing to "_________ culture" does no one any favors.

 

[Ultrajoe]

Maybe because they aren't telling the truth. Certainly not about western developed society.
Do we actually have any statistics to support the idea that all or even most rapists claim this? not that I doubt it, just that I?m interested.

...

On the other hand, rape as a sexual deviancy will exist as long as mental illness exists.

https://www.d.umn.edu/~bmork/2306/readings/scullyandmarollis.htm

Have a gander at this, the first two paragraphs are particularly important regarding the second part of your post I have quoted.

For anyone who can't be bothered to click the link, here's the relevant excerpt (although all of it is relevant)

"Rape is viewed as an individualistic, idiosyncratic symptom of a disordered personality. That is, rape is assumed to be a psychopathologic problem and individual rapists are assumed to be "sick." However, advocates of this model have been unable to isolate a typical or even predictable pattern of symptoms that are causally linked to rape. Additionally, research has demonstrated that fewer than 5 percent of rapists were psychotic at the time of their rape (Abel et al., 1980).

We view rape as behavior learned socially through interaction with others; convicted rapists have learned the attitudes and actions consistent with sexual aggression against women. Learning also includes the acquisition of culturally derived vocabularies of motive, which can be used to diminish responsibility and to negotiate a non-deviant identity."
- CONVICTED RAPIST'S VOCABULARY OF MOTIVE: EXCUSES AND JUSTIFICATIONS, Diana Scully and Joseph Marolla