Real Life Superhero Thwarts Robbery, Gains TV Fame
- Thread starter vansau
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Real life Kick-Ass
Being a vigilante isn't the way to help your community. Direct confrontation with hostile criminals is likely to get someone hurt. What if the criminal had a gun and starts shooting? the vigilante or a bystander wanting to watch the hero save the day could get killing or badly hurt. If you want to help lower crime join the police or courts. If you don't want to go that way. Join a community group that improves the local area. True it sounds lame but so does being a costumed crime fighter.
Being a vigilante isn't the way to help your community. Direct confrontation with hostile criminals is likely to get someone hurt. What if the criminal had a gun and starts shooting? the vigilante or a bystander wanting to watch the hero save the day could get killing or badly hurt. If you want to help lower crime join the police or courts. If you don't want to go that way. Join a community group that improves the local area. True it sounds lame but so does being a costumed crime fighter.
I understand your concern, the potential for disaster is as great as its potential for good vibes in a community. Some of your arguments could be just as likely used if one were to just substitute police/bylaw officer in where you have vigilante.Cazza said:
I highlighted with bold and italics parts of your post that I would like to make some points on. On the italicized, I couldn't agree more, whenever you give a shit about your neighbours you are contributing to a long term solution to alleviate suffering and lift everyone up together. On the bold however, it should be noted that such activities have an associated local/regional/federal governance budgetary concerns, so there simply may not be either the policy priorities or funds for the enforcement personnel of the legal system. What the caped crusaders are doing is basicly what a beat cop or security guard would do if there was one - and this is pretty key point here, most do it at cost aka "free", not charging for their service to the community. If a costumed hero were to say release a comic book to help fund their efforts, I for one would applaud it as it would mean they would have better opportunities for security education, training, and equipment for their safety and that of the public they are trying to help.
I think one of the chief concerns when it comes to security forces of any kind is accountability. Are they perceived as above the law they enforce, currying special favours to avoid being restricted in their powers by the law? Are they perceived as corruptible, bending enforcement of the laws for those who make a living/profit from breaking them? This could be true of costumed crusaders of all kinds in the security field. All too often police are just legally/policy approved sanctioned violent militias/gangs/secret societies in many places in the world.
If someone wants to give being real life Paladin a go, I wish them the best, its a extremely difficult path to choose and easy to fall off of, especially when so many are fallen and now falsely representing themselves as paladins. So, what will your symbol/badge stand for in the end, eh?
I would like to continue my line of thought and dicuss your points.CanadianWolverine said:
True funding can be an issue for some areas. Others it's the opposite. The funding is there but not the recruits. I don't know which it is for this example. If funding is an issue people could donate money. Though not all have the money to spare to donate. Joining the police or courts were just examples as you probably guessed. Those types of jobs can directly lower crime. Others though they may not directly lower crime they still help. Like council workers.
Does lowering crime need to be people primary goal in helping the community.? I guess it's most what concerns them. A community watch group can directly lower crime. It's not directly confronting criminals but with them knowing about the group criminals less are likely to try. Setting up a charity and campaigning to fund local groups like community watches or to the government. Set up a program to help to homeless. Thinking about it for only a short time and you can see being a caped crime fighter isn't the best idea.
These guys really sound like they just want to fame of being a "superhero" though really they are just a costumed crime fighter which end up doing little overall. They are only dealing with the effect and not the cause. Their downfall will be being a vigilante isn't the best way to solve crime. They are just as likely to be arrested from what they are doing then the people they are trying to stop. From false imprisonment,concealed weapons? Iam not from the US but Im sure they are breaking some laws to do this. If the cops do anything about it is a different matter.
They end up just like security forces. They can easily go to far. They are not meant to uphold the law. They should leave it to who's job it is. The police.
If they somehow get to the level of Batman I might rethink. Batman is fiction and the script writers have him always save the day. Real life doesn't work like that so I probably still wouldn't support what they are doing.
I believe these guys will disappear over time. Being a failure they won't defeat crime. It's just a matter if they quit, get sent to jail or get killed. Hopefully they will grow up and quit before they get relly hurt.
Rather than quote the entire post that is more than likely directly above this one that a reader of this thread has probably just finished reading, I numbered the paragraphs then used the first and last words of the paragraph as identifiers so the reader will know which paragraph I am referring to.Cazza said:
Firstly, thank you for your reply Cazza. I would like to start by acknowledging that I agree with your following points:
- [1] lack of qualified applicants to security forces such as the police can be an issue
- [1] Public services and the people who provide these services effectively to help underprivileged members of society with surviving and thriving helps us all and can contribute to lowering crime by having less rightfully so desperate low income earners.
- [2] Community programs for providing effective witness do help to a degree.
- [2] Helping the desperate, such as those who are homeless or starving, can lower petty crime.
- [4] Security forces as individuals and/or organizations can go too far in making mistakes, accidental or purposeful, they are human after all. "To Err Is Human, To Forgive Divine" is how the saying goes IIRC.
[1] However, it should be noted that trying to run a effective police force augmented or fully supported by charitable contributions is not a reasonable supposition, as it would amount to effectively supporting a police officer at the same level as these costumed community volunteer security. A costumed hero/ine's equipment and training (with no salary/wages) is quite likely being paid for by first and foremost the individuals own resources, then that which is donated to them by fans/patrons, and in only a few rare cases by businesses with a deal worked out more akin to sport star's sponsorship than under contracted services like a security guard service for day to day business. [2] That you suggest charitable donations to the government for services is both laudable because I understand your good intentions and laughable because those are either accepted as political contributions to a candidate for political office or taxes, which propaganda would have you believe that paying less taxes is better even while various countries social services effectively do very little while military budgets keep pace with inflation and societies top 10% (number pulled from my ass since I don't have a citation at this moment in time) income earners/wealthy get richer while the poor get more desperate as they loose their family homes and businesses. If you are genuinely sincere in your charity towards government and the services it provides, I implore you to lobby your government (and encourage other countries) to raise taxes, and reduce military contracts to corporations in their budgets, and enact legislation that effectively reduces the depression of communities when corporations out source their jobs that support families/communities and their tax bases to countries those corporations feel they can get cheaper labour/production because of corrupt and/or lax safety protections for environmental, insurance, and human rights violations.
[1] Also, you say police and lawyers directly reduce crime. I disagree, police, investigators, coroners and lawyers secure convictions and public inquiries in accordance with the presiding law of the day. They are a reaction to criminal acts and are only effectively a preventive measure in reducing crime as much as the laws governing them and the budget allotted to their having a effective block by block presence measured in how quickly they can bring force and the amount of that force without depleting the forces available for other blocks of the community. Only effective/intelligent/wise city/province/federal planning for long term economic stability that allows for the conditions for upward economic movement of its lowest rungs of society (such as policy on effective public water, environmental protection, food, shelter, education, health-care, natural disaster relief, insurance, energy, transportation, anti-professional criminal legislation and higher taxes for the richest members to prevent lucrative speculative markets that result in economic crashes time and time again) in addition with regulating rather than prohibiting markets thus driving them underground reduce crime significantly rather than just shifting it and the blame around, IMHO.
[2] It is a given that crime will often be what concerns law abiding citizens the most, as both a factor of being motivated to action (or supporting it) by fear and hate. To that end it is important politically to keep up the appearances that security is important to governments, as power is derived from people accepting their authority, so making a show of short term force for the media outlets people pay attention to can take precedent over actually preventing crime, especially when lobbyist propaganda threatens a politicians career by using lies and misrepresentation to turn the public's acceptance of their authority and that of their agents (for example, police) against them if actual crime prevention policies threaten to impact the lobbyist client's own goals, usually in some way related to wealth acquisition. It is also important to note that crime (the breaking of a commonly accepted social or business contract/arrangement) adds to the costs of doing business in a neighbourhood as security and losses will impact how profitable a block's margins are. So preventing crime helps economies grow as a atmosphere of trust allows for open negotiations and deals to take place.
[2] Simply a witness to a crime as part of a community watch group is only effective where it helps secure a conviction, again it is just a reaction to crime, IMHO it does not effectively prevent it. It is of little consolation to the victim if people actually physically helping them at that time would have prevented more abuse from their attacker. Take for example a sanctioned MMA (or whatever style of unarmed combat sports you want) fight but give it a twist: How would you feel about watching a fight where there is no referee to stop the fight when one of the participants stops being able to defend them self or warn against certain blows that are known to be permanently harmful? How about no ring/cage side doctor and personal medics to stop the fight if they feel the participants future health is in jeopardy or to quickly provide medical care that speeds the healing process exponentially? How about if the matt and cage they were fighting on was concrete and other unforgiving surfaces? What about if one of the opponents could have allies to outnumber and/or bladed/blunt/ranged weapons? Still want to just witness that altercation, stand by while someone is victimized and possibly killed? I hope the point has gotten across, sometimes the threat of violence by an outside hero(es) is needed to prevent a worse situation and if police are minutes away in a situation where seconds count, you are just going to watch so the cops can gain a conviction easier when you could have prevented further harm? Thinking about it for a while or a short time, you can see being a caped crime fighter is the best idea in some situations, especially if you are effective by learning from your mistakes as over time Phoenix Jones and his compatriots have been doing.
[2] Sometimes being a hero means putting yourself in harm's way to help the life of another human being - firefighters, police, paramedics, soldiers, and many more are all to familiar with this. I am sure Phoenix Jones, Red Dragon, Buster Doe, and other members of the Rain City Superheroes are well aware of this, especially Phoenix Jones who has been stabbed previous to donning a masked costume with cape accessory and had other physical injuries (more recently reported as getting a broken nose*) do to his taking an active role in helping people against loss of property, health, and life. Clearly his improvement of his costume's effectiveness in its role as both symbol, identity security for his day to day close contacts, and physical defence is a response to this fact of life in situations where violent harm is a eminent possibility. That he doesn't carry a fire arm is also encouraging as it means the possibility of him lethally harming an attacker purposefully or a member of the Seattle public accidentally (bullets don't just stop where they first hit and good aim in tense situations takes a lot of effective practice).
[2] There are ways his (and others) volunteer crusading could provide better witness however, portable shoulder and head mounted cameras that could be modified to have the storage capacity and back up the video evidence off site, in addition to aerial radio controlled blimp, plane, and helicopters with similar video capabilities could provide effective empirical witness before editing with GPS and time stamp data included, even in the event that the super hero couldn't provide witness in testimony and court them self due to debilitating injury or death - however privacy advocates would be up in arms over this advancement of the dash board camera that police currently have in most cruisers but there is precedent for it with home video shot with cameras even from cell phones and other devices providing evidence (big brother is already here in some ways, he just isn't government run, though it can be passed along to the authorities and we have embraced it is social media and reporting for good or ill).
[2] The Homeless. That you bring them up in a paragraph regarding crime watching was perhaps unintentional or with the best intentions, but none the less angers me that people so down on their luck can be associated with crime watching so callously, so don't take this personal, it just reminds of me of how some people are unjustly demonized in society when what they need is a society that gives a shit by way of affordable housing and laws preventing the dissociation of a person from their place of shelter, when a family home base to work from is such an important part of economic recovery. Its criminal what the banks have done, they have emptied entire communities due to their speculating on their mortgages and jobs.
[3] Fame? Supposing that being a bit of a local media darling actually counts as fame beyond the usual 15 minutes (new media like the internet have reduced that adjusted for inflation to like 8 minutes but that isn't as recognizable as the saying), well, I suppose that will play out in if a masked crusader takes off the mask and then tries to personally curry social status and benefits of fame aka cash in on the symbol, icon, meme, brand, logo, trademark, copyright, whatever you want call it that was accumulated. But so far specifically in Phoenix Jones' story thus far, the person/"hero" was barely a byline when he first appeared in media, an internet curiosity for us to poke fun at best with most of the reporting of joke of the week quality ... and its barely risen above that if not for a documentarian/blogger** and local media interviews and scrums, mostly initiated by the media. Heck, Rain City Superhero members such as Phoenix Jones have received and turned down offers of having their own reality tv show***, which as anyone who wants to be famous will tell you (just ask Gene Simmons, Ozzy Osborne, the many, many participants of things like Big Brother, Survivor, Amazing Race, Real World, Jersey Shore ... I think you get the point that list can go on for quite a while and please allow me to say I very often can't stand "Reality" tv shows, few are tastefully let alone entertainingly done IMHO) reality tv shows that air will get you fame, the kind where some camera man for TMZ might recognize you walking into a restaurant, air port, or club - for good or ill. Some speculate Phoenix Jones is a MMA fighter of some limited local fame, so maybe he will to a tell all product line and fame builder later to improve his MMA career if that is accurate, but if that is the case that it would improve the deals with MMA promoters for making an appearance in competitions, turning down having a reality tv show with something like the Discovery Channel (whose Deadliest Catch reality tv show is one of the more respectful of its subjects that it films when it comes to reality tv shows so far), whose contacts could maybe even hook up the Rain City Superheroes with some high tech off the shelf gear for companies looking to promote their products, technical expertise, and cutting edge scientific / engineering prototypes - it just doesn't make any sense with the in it for the fame accusation ... hell I almost hope they reconsider Discovery Channel's offer, it could be a real boon to their resources if the contracts were carefully worded for maximum benefit to meet their goals in regards to crime fighting, crime prevention and active social conscience message especially in regards to caring for the homeless.
[3][4] Lets just disregard that you are commenting on laws you admit to knowing little about for a second, I can appreciate that as US federal, Washington state laws and city bylaws are not my purview either. I just want to reiterate the statement probably better said by others who have come before me, just because something law does not mean it is just, let alone jives/is in congruence with common sense and decency for human rights and values. Breaking laws should be avoided when possible, but not at the expense of another human's suffering. So I have to disagree strongly that being a vigilante aka hero or good Samaritan does not have its time and place when the practice of thuggery ( the use of violence to take what you want when you want with the intention of no personal repercussions ) is evident.
Allow me to relate a personal story, I know that when I was confronted with a situation where I highly suspected a neighbour had her front door kicked which broke the frame by her estranged husband and father of their children, then he proceeded to injure her physically, rob her of a laptop he felt entitled to, and leave as she called the cops that I tried to talk him down and it did shit all. I asked if the lady police officer if I would have been in my rights to attack him and she said only if he had remained indoors and I had seen him rather than just possibly heard him physically attacking her. At the time I only had shorts on and I was approaching with caution since I couldn't be sure how he was armed and I had a 1 year old daughter who still needed her dad with full capacities. All that and more was going through my head as the events unfolded and later when I wrote and signed my testimony. Had I been wearing the proper armour/equipment, been secure in the knowledge he wouldn't use the knowledge of where I lived to hurt those closest to me because he didn't clearly have my identity, you think I would have let him get away with that thuggery? That is essentially what happened, he didn't serve any time in community service to my knowledge but did have to return/repay the stolen property and they even got back together into their "secretly" abusive relationship in which children were effected by. By dressing up as Phoenix Jones does, he is protecting others and himself to be more effective, I know this to be true, I can and will support that. In some ways, I like how he even sticks his neck out legally, when was the last time there was a cop you knew stepped way too far over the line and trampled on the peoples' health, property, civil liberties, and human rights they are sworn to protect and yet they served no time in jail or community service and even kept their jobs? One only need look at events of some police shootings where the evidence doesn't add up with police testimony, a person is abused when they are taken into police custody with excessive force and confinement conditions, and the biggest circus of abuses just about any political protest in regards to international corporations and/or gatherings of countries' leaders/representatives like WTO, G8, and G20 meetings to name a few. Does anyone else recall "Battle in Seattle"****, doesn't that ring any alarm bells why some people might have more trust in Phoenix Jones than the police?
And that is even before we tackle the pervasive issues, one of which is lack of trust in the effectiveness of a local police force to effectively prevent and fight crime, that are caused when the black market gets this generation's versions of Al Capone (or whatever famous name we can drag up from the equally successful days of alcohol prohibition and the issues it raised for police forces and drug enforcement agencies) due to drug prohibition.
[5] I highly suspect you know just as much about how often everything turned out perfect in regards saving the day for the fictional Batman as you do for the real world Phoenix Jones (and others who don a mask to fight crime). Did you know Batman has had his back broken or the numerous times he has been bloodied, bruised, had ribs, noses, limbs fractured or broken in the comics? Let alone allies who have been injured or killed? How about the number of times a crime already went down and Batman is just there to be the best damn detective he can try to be so as to catch the professional criminal before they pull their next job of thuggery? Just as the early Batman evolved into the technological, stealthy, and martial master the character has become in the comics with learning from his many mistakes, so to is Phoenix Jones ... only he isn't incredibly wealthy and trying to combat professional criminals and poverty from the top of the policy lobbying pyramid/food chain like the fictional character. Phoenix Jones really should reconsider negotiating a deal with Discovery Channel, then Seattle just might get something closer to its own version of the modern evolution of Batman at a quicker pace but with better exposure of the message/symbol he wants to portray.
[6] I disagree, everyone needs a noble real world hero aka sacrifice they can look up to and learn from their mistakes. The courage to stand up to thuggery effectively is contagious and we certainly need more of it all around the world in our own locales, it lifts us up. It is one of the few things that lets anyone still have faith in humanity being valuable. Our fore fathers did it when faced with tyrants and injustice, we should continue the practice as well even if the costumes/symbols change. This is something that can resonate with people well beyond the personal failings of a man which are inevitable in a fight against the sadder side of the human condition.
* - Attack leaves Seattle 'superhero' with broken nose (Source: http://www.komonews.com/news/local/113246859.html )
** - HEROES IN THE NIGHT documentarian maybe, definitely blogger Tea Krulos, he does more profiles on those termed Real Life Super Heroes than just Seattle's Phoenix Jones http://www.blogger.com/profile/07994495796501352329
*** - Phoenix Jones and other Seattle 'superheroes' getting reality TV show offers (Source: http://capitolhill.komonews.com/content/phoenix-jones-and-other-seattle-superheroes-getting-reality-tv-show-offers )
**** - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/WTO_Ministerial_Conference_of_1999_protest_activity
TL
R - Too many different points were covered in this post to cater to those too lazy to read. I broke it up into paragraphs and reference numbers with bold to try to help the eye strain. I hope you were enlightened in some way by my views, even if the reader disagrees with the conclusions I have personally come to in regards to this subject. Peace.
I will add in bold the number of your reply like you have for referring to a section. I tryed to not write to much. If you would like me to add more detail any where or talk about somthing I missed go ahead. It's hard to cover all you talked about.CanadianWolverine said:
[2] "That you suggest charitable donations"
I agree, donating to the government is the hopes they will put it towards to area you want isn't the best idea. Donating and campaigning for candidates who represent your opinion would be a better idea.
[1] "Also, you say police and lawyers directly reduce crime."
True passing laws to lower crime can do more to lower crime. It is beyond the average person to join political career. Campaigning could be more their area. Not everyone is cut out to be politician just like not everyone is cut out to be a cop or lawyer. These examples aren't meant to be taken as the only jobs to lower crime.
Police can directly lower crime by just being there. No one is going to rob a store when they know the cops are around. Even if they are not in the area some people would be put off just by the tought of the cops looking for them.
[2] "Simply a witness to a crime"
Watch groups don't just watch. If they see a crime they do everything they can to stop it. Directly confronting if it something like a bashing. Normally a description (or photo) and any other information like number plates are enough for cops to catch the person. After that they normally find more linking them to the crime like stolen good or fingerprints.
So they do put themsleves in harms away. They just do it smartly just like "firefighters, police, paramedics, soldiers,". True you can say Phoenix Jones does it smartly by wearing protective gear.
[2] "The Homeless."
I know not every homeless person is a criminal. When people desperate they are more likely to steal even if they are honest good people. It's just good to help these people.
[3] "Fame?"
Okay so he turned down reality tv shows. There are many reason for that. Not wanting to look like a sell out. Being forced to jump through their requirements. People would get the wrong idea. He does want exposure so people know what he's doing and I bet he does want money to fund his work.
[5] "I highly suspect you know just as much about"
Yeah I know that batman got hurt a lot and had to play detective. I would respect Jones more if did play detective. I believe it's better then always confront criminals.
[6] "I disagree, everyone needs a noble real world hero"
I agree, people should have a hero. I don't agree with peoples heroes being vigilante. Cop sure. Doesn't even need to be some who fights crime. A range of memebers os society can be peoples hero.
Seriously. Who else here thinks Seattle has one too many Superheros? Who else thinks Seattle needs a little more balance? I think I shall make a trip to the north-west...A trip OF DOOM!!Tim Latshaw said:
All very good points, thank you for making them. A toast, To the real world heroes; service people, community volunteers and councillors of good intent and even better effective action to those goals of lifting us all up! May those who wear masked costumes/armour see a day where they feel they are no longer needed because we are in a better state of being.Cazza said:
Peace.
