Reasonable Comics For Reasonable People

[TheRightToArmBears]

Never write a strip that might possibly offend anyone again.

While I know you are being sarcastic, I also know that a double standard could be applied to it:
"I know this [comic, game, movie, whatever] offends people, but as long as it doesn't offend me, hey, it's alright!"
"Oh, but if this other [comic, game, movie, whatever] offends me, it should be removed from the face of Earth along with its creator(s)"
Either one or the other. You are a hypocrite if you choose both (not directed to you, TheRight, but I've seen people doing it).

I agree, although I've long since given up trying to argue with people that are so irrational.

Personally there's only one thing that applies to me that would cause me any great offence, and I wouldn't treat a joke about it differently than if it didn't apply to me. That said, I still wouldn't create much fuss over it provided the joke doesn't have a hint of sincerity behind it. Getting offended is just a part of life, people need to learn to deal with it without being a little *****. Someone taking the piss of homosexuals and genuinely meaning it? That's out of line. Someone taking the piss out of homosexuals when you know they're not genuinely homophobic? Not a big deal.

Taking the piss out of white guys being douchey online? That's really not a big deal, regardless of how genuine Grey was. I actually didn't find the strip itself especially fun in of itself but I knew that the people it was aimed at would get so pissed off over it I cracked a smile, and looking at its thread, boy was I right. It was so deliciously hilarious to see them in effect write the punchline to a joke taking the piss out of themselves.

 

[Rebel_Raven]

Yeah, I'd love to be calm and reasonable in conversations, but when you're adding something to a thread, calm, and reasonable rarely grows tht thread.
Of course it can get you people PMing you kudos for being that way, though.

Sometimes you have to be loud to get noticed. I usually enter a thread ranting, and then see what crops up.

As for Developers getting blamed for stuff from higher up, I recognize this. It's not right, but it can't be helped sometimes. We don't know, exactly, what producers and developers are guilty, so the innocent tend to get heaped in.

Honest discourse? Yeah, it'd be nice, but I don't see it happening. Honestly, even if it did, just between developers and, well, us, won't do much vs the producers who perpetuate the racial/sexual issues in gaming. Of course no dev team can speak for them all, either. A racist/sexist dev team can't speak for the ones that are progressive, and more egalitarian, nor the other way around.
And these honest discourses could end up outting people, and potentially ruining people with lawsuits, loss of jobs, etc.

Also, beige? What are you? Neutral?
<youtube=k8ws_APXilE>

 

[major_chaos]

Ah, I remember when Critical Miss was about video games, it feels like it was just a few weeks ago...
Also you can't have it both ways Grey. You can't make an intentionally offensive comic designed to piss off as many people as possible then get snide and snippy when people get angry about it.

 

[JakobBloch]

Had to look up straw man. Thanks for that.

 

[grey_space]

And not mean? The last Critical Miss was clearly meant to be offensive and mean to a certain demographic and so were several others. Worse, that demographic was clearly the majority of their own readers.

Good. If said demographic took those caricatures of individuals and identified with one or more of them and thus felt offended, then good.

They needed a bit of offending.

Art is meant to challenge and evoke emotion. Last weeks strip did. This weeks strip did. Fair play to them that they maintain enough artistic integrity to so challenge the (apparent) majority of their readers. A little bit of self awareness of their own foibles never hurt anyone.

I read stuff on this website to be challenged, a lot of people on this site have changed my opinion (for the better I'd hope) on a lot of issues by politely pointing out I was an ass.

I didn't die.


Grey, Carter, I have such an enormous man crush on you guys...Sterling work.

(pun intended)

 

[russman588]

snip

I find linking people on the other side of an argument with morally unacceptable actions they don't do both bad taste and unacceptable and even harmful for debate. I feel the same way about people that call feminists "femnazis". And if you (like so many people) don't see the use of such tactics in a debate as problematic, we will just have to agree to disagree.

It's parody, it's exaggeration for comedic effect. The comic is not debating anything, it's making fun of a specific group of racist people. If you think a webcomic shouldn't have exaggeration for comedic effect, then sure, we'll agree to disagree on that point.

 

[M0tty]

And not mean? The last Critical Miss was clearly meant to be offensive and mean to a certain demographic and so were several others. Worse, that demographic was clearly the majority of their own readers.

Good. If said demographic took those caricatures of individuals and identified with one or more of them and thus felt offended, then good.

They needed a bit of offending.

Art is meant to challenge and evoke emotion. Last weeks strip did. This weeks strip did. Fair play to them that they maintain enough artistic integrity to so challenge the (apparent) majority of their readers. A little bit of self awareness of their own foibles never hurt anyone.

I read stuff on this website to be challenged, a lot of people on this site have changed my opinion (for the better I'd hope) on a lot of issues by politely pointing out I was an ass.

I didn't die.


Grey, Carter, I have such an enormous man crush on you guys...Sterling work.

(pun intended)

Too right.

 

[Lord Krunk]

Are you being sarcastic? Or did you just seriously call me a Mangina. And quite a few of my friends. And all the people who liked last weeks episode.

You just got offended by a criticism of something deliberately offensive. I hope you grasp the irony.

I was wondering if someone was going to fall into that trap. It gives me faith that only one person seemed to.

EDIT: These forums are embarrassingly difficult to use on a phone.

 

[Mr F.]

Are you being sarcastic? Or did you just seriously call me a Mangina. And quite a few of my friends. And all the people who liked last weeks episode.

You just got offended by a criticism of something deliberately offensive. I hope you grasp the irony.

I was wondering if someone was going to fall into that trap. It gives me faith that only one person seemed to.

EDIT: These forums are embarrassingly difficult to use on a phone.

Yeah, looking at the structure of your respone in my inbox did somewhat... confuse me.

Actually, I was not offended by your criticism of something offensive. I was offended by your insulting me and anyone else who found it entertaining.

See the difference?

I mean, there were a few valid criticisms last week, the whole Zimmerman Mode Activate, whilst funny (And perfectly capturing a certain kind of redditor), could be taken to be incredibly offensive. Arguments against that make sense. You just insulting the people who liked it, well...

Spoiler: Derp

I hope you grasp the irony of trying to break out of the White Guy Defense Force by being sexist, which is one of the few stereotypes. Like the guys who made this:

Spoiler: This

You seemed to have missed the point and decided the best way of attacking something you do not like is to conform to the stereotypes portrayed.

And yes, Using the term Mangina is sexist. What with the insult being based on "You have feminine traits and therefore are less of a man", it reinforces the men superior/women inferior dichotomy.

tldr;

I was not offended by your criticism, I was offended by your personal attack upon me and anyone else who enjoyed the comic and your use of sexism to do so.

Try again.

 

[Shadowstar38]

this:

Spoiler: This

That edit was actually one of the funnier ones.

 

[ImmortalDrifter]

And not mean? The last Critical Miss was clearly meant to be offensive and mean to a certain demographic and so were several others. Worse, that demographic was clearly the majority of their own readers.

Good. If said demographic took those caricatures of individuals and identified with one or more of them and thus felt offended, then good.

They needed a bit of offending.

Wow. Just wow. I really have no words for this. My brain has just stopped working. There is nothing within the Escapist's forum's rules I can use to properly respond to this. I have utterly lost hope. Damn.

 

[Lord Krunk]

snip

The comment was intentionally sexist, ti gauge whether or not the fans can take the same shit they enjoy dishing out. I think we have our answer.

This post wasn't the pot calling the kettle black. It's the pot demanding the kettle go 'back to the plantations where it belongs'.

this:

Spoiler: This

That edit was actually one of the funnier ones.

Agreed. It was a clever reversal, and an accurate one at that. The joke never changed, but the subject did.

I'd dare say this one was more clever (and original) than the source.

 

[Mr F.]

snip

The comment was intentionally sexist, ti gauge whether or not the fans can take the same shit they enjoy dishing out. I think we have our answer.

This post wasn't the pot calling the kettle black. It's the pot demanding the kettle go 'back to the plantations where it belongs'.

this:

Spoiler: This

That edit was actually one of the funnier ones.

Agreed. It was a clever reversal, and an accurate one at that. The joke never changed, but the subject did.

I'd dare say this one was more clever (and original) than the source.

The guy who stole someone elses artwork and joke structure (And did not credit them in any way.) is more original than the original creator?

Right.

Uh.

Anyway, if you want to discuss that, jump over to the thread in which it is being discussed. It is extremely off topic for this thread.

And not mean? The last Critical Miss was clearly meant to be offensive and mean to a certain demographic and so were several others. Worse, that demographic was clearly the majority of their own readers.

Good. If said demographic took those caricatures of individuals and identified with one or more of them and thus felt offended, then good.

They needed a bit of offending.

Wow. Just wow. I really have no words for this. My brain has just stopped working. There is nothing within the Escapist's forum's rules I can use to properly respond to this. I have utterly lost hope. Damn.

Actually, he (Sorry if I am incorrect, assumptions) makes a fair point.

None of my friends found this anything other than hilarious. As of yet, the only people who found it to be anything other than funny were people who... Well, you know the kind of people.

People who accurately fit that stereotype.

Now, I am not one for saying that racism aint racism if it does not equally offend everyone, cause that aint how racism works. However, this is not an attack on white guys, or white people, it is an attack on those stereotypes and the kind of people who make those comments.

If I showed that comic to my mum she would not found it offensive as I would have to explain every single bit of it to her from bullshit PUA lingo down to the Zimmerman case (She doesn't follow American news due to being a British expat in the UAE.)

In other words, it is not offensive to the vast majority of white guys and the people who have been genuinely offended by it, the people who are calling it racist (Bar those calling out the shitty Zimmerman "Lets make fun of a black guy dying" joke) are people who are guilty of those comments.

Plus within the rules you can say whatever you like as long as you do not directly insult someone. You can call someones argument ill thought out and potentially stupid, but you cannot call them stupid. One is a valid point, the other is an insult.

And hell, If you think of yourself as an "Alpha" and women to be something to be manipulated and then fucked, yeah, you need to be taken down a peg. If you think of yourself as a "Beta", because you cannot fuck women and you look up to the Alphas, you need to be taken down a peg. And if you are wearing a fedora and making shitty strawman arguments and trying to come across as intellectual through using graphs that a 3 year old could make you most certainly need to be taken down a peg.

And if you identify with those, well, maybe you should have a bit of a think. Because those are not "White" traits, they are not things I associate with "White" people, they are not stereotypes about "White" people but a certain GROUP of "White" people.

And we just had a thread discussing why we all hate fedoras! Which is one of the stereotypes!

 

[ImmortalDrifter]

SNIP!

My comment wasn't based on the specific nature of his comment, but on the broader scale. If one person "deserves to offended" then nobody should complain when anyone gets offended. Who "deserves" it is subjective. Secondly this kind of crap is what starts those toxic hive-mind communities ala reddit. Where anyone who's viewpoint opposes the popular one is to be cast out and ignored regardless of the legitimacy of their argument/opinion.

None of the things you mentioned about the "Alpha, Beta, and Gamma Hierarchy" really even apply to the comic's point, (the comics point was about a character in a video game being a certain race) even though they are accurate. That is what I don't like about the comic. (Along with the fact that Grey literally just took a look at the first pages of /fit/ and pasted them into his comic.) It's just flame-bait race politics. When you make broad statements like the one presented in the previous comic, then you can expect a wide variety of interpretations to emerge. I could tell from the moment I saw the title of WGDF that it was basically (though sarcastically) implying that white people don't have a right to defend themselves in arguments concerning race. It wasn't nearly as bad as I thought, but it still wasn't funny though. Likely because none of the jokes were actually original, and they were hardly jokes at all. Like a comedian walking up on stage and spouting political bullshit, and everyone laughs. They don't laugh because it was funny, but because they agree with it. That's the vibe I got.

 

[Lord Krunk]

SNIP!

My comment wasn't based on the specific nature of his comment, but on the broader scale. If one person "deserves to offended" then nobody should complain when anyone gets offended. Who "deserves" it subjective. Secondly this kind of crap is what starts those toxic hive-mind communities ala reddit. Where anyone who's viewpoint opposes the popular one is to be cast out and ignored regardless of the legitimacy of their argument/opinion.

None of the things you mentioned about the "Alpha, Beta, and Gamma Hierarchy" really even apply to the comic's point, (the comics point was about a character in a video game being a certain race) even though they are accurate. That is what I don't like about the comic. (Along with the fact that Grey literally just took a look at the first pages of /fit/ and pasted them into his comic.) It's just flame-bait race politics. When you make broad statements like the one presented in the previous comic, then you can expect a wide variety of interpretations to emerge. I could tell from the moment I saw the title of WGDF that it was basically (though sarcastically) implying that white people don't have a right to defend themselves in arguments concerning race. It wasn't nearly as bad as I thought, but it still wasn't funny though. Likely because none of the jokes were actually original, and they were hardly jokes at all. Like a comedian walking up on stage and spouting political bullshit, and everyone laughs. They don't laugh because it was funny, but because they agree with it. That's the vibe I got.

Said it better in two paragraphs than I could in four posts. You're awesome.

 

[Paradoxrifts]

Just about everyone believes that they're the 'reasonable person' voicing their opinion on behalf of a 'silent majority' from deep within a shitstorm of madness, but the truth is that there is no such thing as a reasonable person.

 

[The Wooster]

Mel Brooks once said: ([a href="http://dailytrojan.com/2009/10/20/entertainer-mel-brooks-discusses-his-blazing-career/"]Here[/a])

"You have to love {what} you parody."

That, I think is the major failing of Critical Miss, and why their "Parody" comics draw so much heat. There doesn't seem to be much Love from Grey and Carter. Most of their topical comics come across more as mean spirited and derisive. I'd say it's more [a href="http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/satire"]Satire[/a].

You will never make friends with Satire. It is, by definition ridicule.

If all you're looking for is page views and traffic, I'd say your technique is perfect. Inflammatory statements usually are for that.

However, if you're trying to promote honest discussion and progress... I don't think Ridicule and derision ever lead to anything constructive happening. At least not on the internet.

I really don't think they are super concerned with promoting "honest discussion and progress". I think they are primarily concerned with putting out a popular comic.

The point is that the best referential humour (in this case, satire and parody) are borne from affection. Humour borne from anything else, in the rare event that it is funny, will date quickly. In this case, the humour was borne from intentional controversy (better known as 'trolling') and a desire to draw out a jab at an easy target. Example: I don't think you're going to see any 'blackface' pantomimes any time in the near future, when a century or two ago they were all the rage. This comic is running on the same brand of humour, but directing it at one of our generation's easy targets instead.

Blackface pantomimes were written by white people. That's the difference. Also, casting aspirations on my intentions - " you're just trolling for hits " - isn't an argument, it's a statement, evidence please. And no "some people got offended!" doesn't count. The strip offends people all the time. I set out to write a funny joke, the fact it was incendiary to a certain strata of people was just a bonus.

"Parody has to be affectionate," is interesting, because it effectively allows you to judge content based on (your estimation of) authorial intent. I get the same shit from Evangelion fans every time I make an Eva strip. I personally agree that parody has to come from a caring place, but what I've noticed is that the people being parodied can't tell the difference.

Finally; Critical Miss is (predominantly) a gaming webcomic on a gaming website. The vast majority of my audience consists of white males under thirty and the Escapist is swarming with the same at varying levels of intelligence. If I wanted an easy target I'd hit EA, Sarkeesian, Activision [http://www.escapistmagazine.com/articles/view/comics/critical-miss/10282-Conflict-of-Interest] or any of the other sanctioned whipping boys. I wouldn't (on occasion) demand some degree of introspection from my audience.

Thank you for responding. I wasn't expecting that.

Parody doesn't *have* to be borne of affection, but it's never as funny or as penetrating if they are ones borne of resentment and/or genuine mockery. Some people find it funny, sure, but you forget the people you intend to alienate. Evangelion is in a different ballpark; it's an old anime with a very deep-seated fandom. It's observational humour and exaggeration, but no strawmen were needed as crutches to get the point across.

And that's the big issue I have with the past two comics. A lot of webcomics are falling on the strawman crutch, which is rarely funny to more than a select few, incindiary by design, and like right now, ensuring that the actual things people like the 'WGDF' discuss are just ignored in the public eye in favour of bullshit non-issues like 'the friendzone'. My point is that it's okay to be mean-spirited, but I know you can write better than this. The last comic was just lazy, this one was lazily indignant, and you know it. That's why I'm going out and saying it, rather than just moving on. You guys have talent. You can do better than this.

As for blackface, I'll admit it was a poor example (if only because it 's too dated for anyone other than racists to relate to). Perhaps a better example is the barrage of 'all Muslums are Suicide Bombers' jokes we got post-9/11.

Here's the problem with your argument. Look up the definitions of parody and "straw man." One is exaggerating and twisting a given character or subject to make it appear more ridiculous and ... one is exaggerating and twisting a given character or subject to make it appear more ridiculous. The only difference is the context in which they're used. One is a comedic tool, the other is for debate. This is not a debate.

Look at any comedic work that parodies a given group and you can find so-called "straw men." Black Adder's vision of commissioned officers during WW1. The Christians and Romans in The Life of Brian. The Klansmen in Blazing Saddles. Every character in the Young Ones. The list goes on.

Essentially, while "straw man" is legitimate term, the internet seems to use it as "parody I don't agree with."

 

[Miroluck]

Here's the problem with your argument. Look up the definitions of parody and "straw man." One is exaggerating and twisting a given character or subject to make it appear more ridiculous and ... one is exaggerating and twisting a given character or subject to make it appear more ridiculous. The only difference is the context in which they're used. One is a comedic tool, the other is for debate. This is not a debate.

Look at any comedic work that parodies a given group and you can find so-called "straw men." Black Adder's vision of commissioned officers during WW1. The Christians and Romans in The Life of Brian. The Klansmen in Blazing Saddles. Every character in the Young Ones. The list goes on.

Essentially, while "straw man" is legitimate term, the internet seems to use it as "parody I don't agree with."

Too many people today don't know what straw-anything actually means. I guess it was inevitable due to popularisation of the term.

Here's helpful comic by Kevin Bolk:

Spoiler

And there is ways to see if "opposition" is being portrayed more or less fair (if they deserve it).
http://webcomicoverlook.com/2013/03/13/world-of-straw-guest-opinion-by-david-herbert/