Recent Captain America comic reveal is the dumbest thing I have read in a long time

[Overhead]

If they're doing this just to get people to read the comic... that's pretty despicable. Hopefully this will be one of those things that gets retconned away and forgotten. Goddamnit Marvel, what the hell?!

I don't think it's even that. There was no big press release beforehand, no conversations with retailers to order in extra issue (the way DC did with Rebirth, etc) because it was gonna generate controversy and sell extra issues, etc.

It just seems to be a basic "Good guy is manipulated and turned evil, good guy breaks free, good guy punches bad guy in face" storyline that social media went crazy with.

Red Skull turned Cap evil(ish) 2 years ago in Axis. 3 years before that in Captain America Rebirth Captain was brainwashed into fighting for Red Skull until he was freed by the actions of other heroes.

"Captain America is brainwashed or manipulated into thinking he's Hydra" isn't some radical new storyline that they are trying to use to draw in sales, it's a basic concept that they use a lot (and not just with Cap, but certainly with him too) that has people randomly flipping out this time for no real reason.

This isn't brainwashing though, this is a retcon of his entire backstory going back to his childhood. He isn't just fighting for nazis, he literally is a nazi with nazi ideals now.

Though you're right in that it will be changed back shortly (theres reality altering tech involved, so yeah), but still theres a difference between mind control and literally being something.

It's not a retcon, at least not in the normal sense.

For one, we don't know if his backstory has been changed or just his memories of it. Seeing as this arc is about him fighting the Red Skull who has massive telepathic powers AND Red Skull has been bragging about how he will use Steve Rogers for his plans AND in the black and white flashbacks showing Steve's family being approached by Hydra, the only single bit of colour is the colour red on the hydra agent that convinces them to join - is it really out of the question that he's had his memories messed with by the Red Skull?

Secondly, whatever happens his backstory won't actually be retconned. Maybe he's hand his bran altered y Red Skull's telepathy. maybe it's Kobik's reality warping powers from the Avengers Standoff crossover. Whatever the case, he was not brought up as a Hydra agent - it is merely something making him think he did. His actual continuity remains the same.

 

[Tono Makt]

Is Jean Grey still dead?

 

[Jux]

Let's be honest--this will be retconned within a year at most. It will be planned to be, too. It's what they planned all along.

I give it less than 4 months before it's actually revealed that either a) cap was faking being part of hydra for some grand scheme, b) cap was replaced with a skrull or c) cap was replaced with a skrull

 

[shrekfan246]

"Captain America is brainwashed or manipulated into thinking he's Hydra" isn't some radical new storyline that they are trying to use to draw in sales, it's a basic concept that they use a lot (and not just with Cap, but certainly with him too)

Surely "they do this all the time" should be another reason to at least be exasperated? I know I get a bit tired when I see the same stories retread over and over.

EDIT: Especially when it's so obviously not going to be the new status quo. In fact, I almost hope they do make it the status quo, if only because that means they'll be doing something surprising.

that has people randomly flipping out this time for no real reason.

That one's actually pretty easy to answer. Comics in general and Captain America in particular are more visible to the general public than, well, pretty much ever. Sure, the Cap has been a bit of a household name for decades already, but a lot of people didn't really know anything about him. With the advent of the Marvel Cinematic Universe, a large number of new people have been exposed to a bit of actual information about the guy. Add in the way the internet connects everybody and a bit of what I said a few days ago about how people react to Superman (which is that the public perception of him is something very specific that people get upset about being altered in any way) and wham-o! Instant controversy.

As for why this particular issue has stirred up the pot when people didn't generally care the last few times they did it, I'd hazard a guess that it might be because this is the first issue in a new run. This is purely speculation on my part, but I'd imagine that people who haven't been regularly following comics are generally more likely to jump into issue #1 of something than they are to avidly follow along with some big crossover event or even an ongoing series. Obviously, there are people who do both of those things, but people who didn't already read comics and wanted to check out Captain America thanks to the movies would've probably thought Captain America: Steve Rogers #1 was a good place to begin. And then suddenly Hail Hydra.

 

[Overhead]

Surely "they do this all the time" should be another reason to at least be exasperated? I know I get a bit tired when I see the same stories retread over and over.

EDIT: Especially when it's so obviously not going to be the new status quo. In fact, I almost hope they do make it the status quo, if only because that means they'll be doing something surprising.

If people want to think that, that's fine. If people want a story about classic Captain and they're not being offered it, fine.

The problem is that's not the issue people have, they're complaining that this is some bold radical notion that is nazifying Captain America.

As for why this particular issue has stirred up the pot when people didn't generally care the last few times they did it, I'd hazard a guess that it might be because this is the first issue in a new run. This is purely speculation on my part, but I'd imagine that people who haven't been regularly following comics are generally more likely to jump into issue #1 of something than they are to avidly follow along with some big crossover event or even an ongoing series. Obviously, there are people who do both of those things, but people who didn't already read comics and wanted to check out Captain America thanks to the movies would've probably thought Captain America: Steve Rogers #1 was a good place to begin. And then suddenly Hail Hydra.

Nah, first issues aren't different by an entire order of magnitude or something. Besides, from the criticism most people complaining haven't actually read the issues.

 

[WolfThomas]

Is Jean Grey still dead?

Oh gentle child of summer. Yes and no.

Original Jean Grey is dead. There is a time-displaced teenage version running about.

Beast brought the original five X-men to the future in an attempt to...I can't remember stop Cyclops radicalizing or something (he has been on a downward terrorist-lite spiral). But something got stuck and they can't go back easily. Hasn't really been explained

So there is a teenage Jean, Iceman (who came out as gay, forcing the older one to admit he was indeed closeted), Angel (who has crazy space wings now and dated Wolverines female clone), Cyclops (who has gone on space adventures with his dad) and a non-beast like Beast.

So far some of them have been neat. Jean in particular.

 

[DefunctTheory]

Got nothing to really add to the conversation, just thought the thread might need to be lightened up a bit. A joke goes a long way.

 

[Rain Gass]

If you read comics at all, you will be aware that this is a brief storyline that'll last maybe six issues before it's revealed that the Red Skull brainwashed Cap (or made Kobik recreate him different when de-aging him) or something along these lines but because Cap is so good he fights it off and punches Red Skull in the jaw.

It's clearly this. It's like that time everyone was pissed Thor was being replaced with Tanaraus God of Thunder. When it was only a short story about Ulik the Troll using magic to usurp the temporarily dead Thor's place.

I dont keep up with the Captain America comics much, but doesn't Red Skull still have Professor Xavier's brain? I.E. one of the world's most powerful psychics that can rewrite peoples memories and straight up mind control them. Cause I remember that being a big plot point during the Axis storyline when Red Skull was the main antagonist and ended up switching a bunch of heroes and villains moralities up.

So yeah, I am wondering how many people that are actually upset with this have been reading the comics, because this definitely comes off as Captain America getting mind controlled for a story line before going back to normal. He's not some D-list hero that gets their origin long term retconned by any writer that wants to use him.

It's cute how you think you're smarter than everyone else because you read comic books. Maybe the problem that people are having with this is that they're into this through the MCU, and we don't know how far into the comic continuity razor-wire bramble patch Disney is willing to stick their hands. Maybe fans of the movies are worried that Disney will let this bleed into the movie continuity. Have you considered that?

 

[EternallyBored]

If you read comics at all, you will be aware that this is a brief storyline that'll last maybe six issues before it's revealed that the Red Skull brainwashed Cap (or made Kobik recreate him different when de-aging him) or something along these lines but because Cap is so good he fights it off and punches Red Skull in the jaw.

It's clearly this. It's like that time everyone was pissed Thor was being replaced with Tanaraus God of Thunder. When it was only a short story about Ulik the Troll using magic to usurp the temporarily dead Thor's place.

I dont keep up with the Captain America comics much, but doesn't Red Skull still have Professor Xavier's brain? I.E. one of the world's most powerful psychics that can rewrite peoples memories and straight up mind control them. Cause I remember that being a big plot point during the Axis storyline when Red Skull was the main antagonist and ended up switching a bunch of heroes and villains moralities up.

So yeah, I am wondering how many people that are actually upset with this have been reading the comics, because this definitely comes off as Captain America getting mind controlled for a story line before going back to normal. He's not some D-list hero that gets their origin long term retconned by any writer that wants to use him.

It's cute how you think you're smarter than everyone else because you read comic books. Maybe the problem that people are having with this is that they're into this through the MCU, and we don't know how far into the comic continuity razor-wire bramble patch Disney is willing to stick their hands. Maybe fans of the movies are worried that Disney will let this bleed into the movie continuity. Have you considered that?

Not sure where you are getting the idea that I think I'm smarter for reading the comics, even though I admitted I don't keep up with the Captain America comics and only have a vague idea of current events, mostly through keeping up with discussions from friends that are more into it than I am. Maybe dial back the hostility a couple of notches there, you are coming off slightly unhinged.

As for movie fans, the MCU isn't new, this is hardly the stupidest thing to come out of comics since the MCU started, if movie fans are concerned now, then they are concerned over nothing, where were they when Iron Man was holding a city hostage with addictive nanomachines just a year or two ago in the Axis story line. Movie fans not understanding how comic runs work does not justify any abuse they are currently hurling at the author. Comic authors are often given wide reign to do their own thing especially for reboots or reintroduction that's why the chances of the MCU taking story lines that just started is almost zero, the MCU movies are borrowing from the biggest events and most well known stories of the last 50 years, not the just started storyline of a recently rebooted series. If they are still making Captain America movies in 15 years, then maybe there's a chance they would use story lines from this timeframe,

Anyway, I'm mostly concerned with people overreacting I don't care about the people who say they don't like it, or think it's a stupid plot hook, it's entirely possible they could be right, and this storyline will be up there with the times Captain America was a werewolf, or that time he got addicted to meth. I'm talking about the people that are flooding the author's Twitter calling him an anti-Semite, or talking about how they ruined Captain America's character forever. The people that don't read the comics, and have no idea what the context of the situation is, or the events that preceded the comic, those that are just reacting to a single panel they saw posted on Reddit or Cracked and reacting without any further information or context.

 

[Rain Gass]

If you read comics at all, you will be aware that this is a brief storyline that'll last maybe six issues before it's revealed that the Red Skull brainwashed Cap (or made Kobik recreate him different when de-aging him) or something along these lines but because Cap is so good he fights it off and punches Red Skull in the jaw.

It's clearly this. It's like that time everyone was pissed Thor was being replaced with Tanaraus God of Thunder. When it was only a short story about Ulik the Troll using magic to usurp the temporarily dead Thor's place.

I dont keep up with the Captain America comics much, but doesn't Red Skull still have Professor Xavier's brain? I.E. one of the world's most powerful psychics that can rewrite peoples memories and straight up mind control them. Cause I remember that being a big plot point during the Axis storyline when Red Skull was the main antagonist and ended up switching a bunch of heroes and villains moralities up.

So yeah, I am wondering how many people that are actually upset with this have been reading the comics, because this definitely comes off as Captain America getting mind controlled for a story line before going back to normal. He's not some D-list hero that gets their origin long term retconned by any writer that wants to use him.

It's cute how you think you're smarter than everyone else because you read comic books. Maybe the problem that people are having with this is that they're into this through the MCU, and we don't know how far into the comic continuity razor-wire bramble patch Disney is willing to stick their hands. Maybe fans of the movies are worried that Disney will let this bleed into the movie continuity. Have you considered that?

Not sure where you are getting the idea that I think I'm smarter for reading the comics, even though I admitted I don't keep up with the Captain America comics and only have a vague idea of current events, mostly through keeping up with discussions from friends that are more into it than I am. Maybe dial back the hostility a couple of notches there, you are coming off slightly unhinged.

As for movie fans, the MCU isn't new, this is hardly the stupidest thing to come out of comics since the MCU started, if movie fans are concerned now, then they are concerned over nothing, where were they when Iron Man was holding a city hostage with addictive nanomachines just a year or two ago in the Axis story line. Movie fans not understanding how comic runs work does not justify any abuse they are currently hurling at the author. Comic authors are often given wide reign to do their own thing especially for reboots or reintroduction that's why the chances of the MCU taking story lines that just started is almost zero, the MCU movies are borrowing from the biggest events and most well known stories of the last 50 years, not the just started storyline of a recently rebooted series. If they are still making Captain America movies in 15 years, then maybe there's a chance they would use story lines from this timeframe,

Anyway, I'm mostly concerned with people overreacting I don't care about the people who say they don't like it, or think it's a stupid plot hook, it's entirely possible they could be right, and this storyline will be up there with the times Captain America was a werewolf, or that time he got addicted to meth. I'm talking about the people that are flooding the author's Twitter calling him an anti-Semite, or talking about how they ruined Captain America's character forever. The people that don't read the comics, and have no idea what the context of the situation is, or the events that preceded the comic, those that are just reacting to a single panel they saw posted on Reddit or Cracked and reacting without any further information or context.

I was referring mostly to the people you were quoting. And what abuse? All I've seen so far is people mocking the decision by coming up with their own stupid plot twists. And I'm not hostile or unhinged. You don't know me.

 

[Subbies]

No, this is genius! And the true twist will be

Spoiler: dadadun

everybody is actually a part of Hydra and Hydra has been fighting itself the whole time

 

[Bilious Green_v1legacy]

I haven't read a Marvel comic since the Brand New Day debacle. It's nice to see Marvel has only gotten more stupid since then.

 

[Thaluikhain]

Interesting article about why some people are upset about this:
http://panels.net/2016/05/26/on-steve-rogers-1-antisemitism-and-publicity-stunts/

 

[DrownedAmmet]

Wait a second, isn't Captain America black now?

 

[votemarvel]

I'm more pissed that they had to have Steve Rogers kill Jack Flag in order to prove how evil he is.

Now I know that Jack Flag is hardly a well known character but what a way to be brought back into comics. Brought in to be murdered by your idol.

They even have to rub it in by including a little joke about how he was glad to be relevant again.

PS. When did Sharon Carter get so old? Wasn't she like 25 last week?

 

[happyninja42]

Wait a second, isn't Captain America black now?

No, that's in one of those other comic book storylines. You know, where they take the typical character and put a radical spin on them to generate publicity and sales? xD Just like this one.

Which is why I never lose my shit over this kind of stuff. They do this all the time. Cap is Black, then he won't be. Cap is Hydra, then he won't be. Eventually Cap will be gay/bi, then he won't be. They're all multiverse titles with no interconnection. Pick and choose from the ones you like.

 

[EternallyBored]

I was referring mostly to the people you were quoting. And what abuse? All I've seen so far is people mocking the decision by coming up with their own stupid plot twists. And I'm not hostile or unhinged. You don't know me.

And you don't know me, yet you still felt it necessary to take a jab at me in your initial response in a completely unnecessarily hostile manner. I don't need to know you to see that your initial post to me came off as hostile and insulting, the fact that you are now getting weirdly defensive over such mild criticism isn't helping either.

Also, if you are referring to people I'm quoting then quote them, not me, you have a new account so maybe you don't know how it works here, you get notification when someone quotes you, generally people take that as indication that you are talking about them. When you said, "It's cute how you think you're smarter than everyone else because you read comic books." was that not referring to me? You quoted me, so the general assumption around here would be that you were talking to and referring to me.

As for abuse, check out the author's Twitter, or some of the other comic book sites around, there are people calling the author an anti-semite, or declaring that Captain America is ruined forever, the comics fandom can be kind of overreactionary at times, but there seem to be a lot of people who've never read the comic or care about Captain America outside the MCU or something else, that have decided to yell their opinions angrily based on seeing a single comic panel in the first issue of a reboot series. Making jokes or just generally thinking its stupid isn't worth commenting on, some of the jokes coming out of this are even pretty funny, but some people seem to think this is some terrible unprecedented low bar for comics, or Captain America, but its not.

 

[MCerberus]

Isn't this a joke? Like, wasn't this pretty much in Squirrel Girl as a joke?

Spoiler

But hey, comics are full of awful twists and arcs that even the comic continuities themselves try to forget and move on from. This one is a hilariously stupid idea, but that's about the only thing that makes it stand out.

It's one thing to write something that Squirrel Girl savagely reks (Penance). It's another when your idiocy is predicted. I think a lot of comics would improve if the writes think "Is this dumb enough as to have been a hyperbolic parody on our series whose job is to make fun of the stupid things we do?"

OT- This should upset Colbert, who at last check was chosen by Marvel to be the IRL Cap.

 

[EternallyBored]

I'm more pissed that they had to have Steve Rogers kill Jack Flag in order to prove how evil he is.

Now I know that Jack Flag is hardly a well known character but what a way to be brought back into comics. Brought in to be murdered by your idol.

They even have to rub it in by including a little joke about how he was glad to be relevant again.

PS. When did Sharon Carter get so old? Wasn't she like 25 last week?

Sharon Carter was trapped in an alternate dimension that aged her, I believe her rescue was the same event that ended up aging Captain America, which after losing the super soldier serum, made him a powerless old man. Cap then just recently had his youth restored in a story line involving a sentient cosmic cube being used to rewrite villains memories to make them think they were good guys which came right after an arc where Red Skull was switching peoples moralities around turning bad guys into good guys and vice versa.

And I just realized that with the Superior Spideman series ending only a little while ago, Marvel has been on a weird morality reversal bender with a lot of its recent storylines.

Finally, if its any consolation, I doubt Jack Flag is actually dead, getting kicked out of an airplane and cutting to another scene. is pretty much comic code for: "will make a dramatic return at some point later." Likely to expose what Cap did to him, or help Cap if there's some kind of triple agent thing going on. If they do kill him off, then yeah, that would be kind of a lame way to cameo a guy that hasn't been in any comics in forever.