Can we fast forward to the point where it's revealed that he's a Skrull? Or was brainwashed? Was an evil clone? Just get it out of the way Marvel, we know you don't have the balls to stick with this.
I just had a thought that completely changed how I view this situation. I predict that in the coming months, we'll find out Chris Evans has had his contract extended, and that there will be a whole new Captain America movie. And it will feature the greatest cross-franchise mash-up in Disney and Marvel history, since Patton Oswald's Star Wars rant in Parks and Rec.
Can we fast forward to the point where it's revealed that he's a Skrull? Or was brainwashed? Was an evil clone? Just get it out of the way Marvel, we know you don't have the balls to stick with this.
Interestingly enough, while a funny meme, the four comic book ones at the top kind of prove that a lot of this outrage is coming from people that don't read comics, and don't understand the characters their talking about in the context of the original comics.
In order: Batman of course was too young to have shot his parents at the time, but Batman has shot people in the past, broken his "sacred" one rule, he's crossed that line in the past in comic books.
The Spiderman line seems to be written by someone who's only seen the Spiderman movies or only knows who Spiderman is through memes. Spiderman saying "fuck Responsibility" is pretty much one of his defining character flaws in the comics, and him trying to offload his responsibility or abandon it is a comic plot that has cropped up numerous times in the past. Its pretty much standard that comic book Peter Parker will try to abandon his responsibility at some point only to realize the lesson uncle Ben taught him after something bad happens, and then go back to being Spider man, Spiderman wrestling with his desire to be irresponsible is one of his main character flaws, and one he gives in to in the comics on occasion.
Daredevil has regained his sight in the past, and even faked that his blindness was all a lie, of course he always goes back to being blind, and him faking being able to see usually doesn't last long either. Funnily enough, there was a storyline where Daredevil was convinced he had a different past where he could always see. It was revealed to be a villainous plot, but for a while, Daredevil was indeed under the impression that he was never blind, and in bizarre comic book logic form, lost his sight again when he regained his memories, for no reason other than his memories seemingly being linked to his blindness.
And lastly, Deadpool loving Chimichangas is an internet meme, in the comics he just likes saying the word chimichangas, and while I don't think he's expressed hatred for them, he has mentioned that he doesn't really love eating them, he just thinks its a great word to say. Deadpool loving chimichangas is part of his memetic internet image mostly perpetuated by people that don't actually read the Deadpool comics, they just like the idea of Deadpool. Of course, that memetic power did eventually influence the Ryan Reynolds movie Deadpool into liking Chimichangas rather than just liking to say the word, so the confusion is at least understandable.
So if we are talking about twists, "on par" with the Captain America one, the first four at least, have pretty much all been done before in some fashion. The Spiderman one isn't even a twist as Spiderman shirking responsibility is pretty much his tragic flaw in a nutshell.
The only way the predictions can remain 100% accurate is if no-one's ever told about them. The minute one prediction is stopped from coming to pass then that prediction was inaccurate and the person is no perfect in their predictions.
I wish I could upvote posts sometimes, like Overhead's breakdown of that meme.
It really surprises me how easy it still is to manipulate the internet into being a PR machine. I haven't even read superhero comics in a while and I saw those last couple pages and was like, yeah, this totally seems like something that's going to stick and they really totally just rewrote Cap's whole backstory and ruined a part of their very profitable movie franchise in the process. we promise u guis this totally isn't a fakeout.
You know what the really interesting part about this for me is? The hate Nick Spencer is getting after ONE ISSUE when literally nothing but the setup has been revealed. That, to me, is the actual shameful thing. Not Marvel doing a marketing ploy, as if that's something new or shocking or even unusual for providers of pulpy entertainment.
When Nick Spencer dared to complain about maybe not wanting to get death threats on twitter, someone had the compassionate answer: "so what is this an attempt to use the worst people to silence the rest of us?" Seriously, this is why I'm not in the comic fandom anymore. Like, I hate to be dismissive of nerd culture because I have spent many hours debating on the internet over super important issues like the ending to Mass Effect 3, and I have very strong opinions about things like Supernatural bit characters who have appeared in like 5 episodes. But if you get angry enough to send or casually dismiss death threats about Issue #843083034903 (all issues with his appearances combined, rough estimate) of Captain America, maybe switch on the real world news every once in a while.
And no, that doesn't mean one has to like this storyline or think it's a smart idea or interesting or anything. Discussing it is totally okay as well, obviously. But however bad it gets, it won't be as bad as the behaviour of those fans.
I have seen this ploy so many times that I wasn't even shocked when I saw it online. Family Guy did this to get more views for the 3 episodes where Brian was dead, Simpsons has killed off so many characters since season 10 for shock value, and remember the first mission of Modern Warfare 2? I remember more "outrage" about that one level serving as free press then actual reviews and opinions on the game. This is starting to become the replacement for companies to remind people the thing they own is still alive. Shock the audience so they at the least talk about the thing.
What happens next, they want you to ask. Will they stick with it? Will they push it? No, they won't. This is either a disguise by Captain to infiltrate Hydra ranks, the work of a time traveler or Deus Ex Machina, or just a crappy decision by marketing that they forced on the writers. While all of these are viable options and more, I feel like it might have been the third. Some of the best or most interesting shows and comics have problems with marketing deciding they know what has to be done rather then look at it in any artistic light.
This happened in MLP season 3 when Hasbro decided Twilight should be an Alicorn. After M.A. Larson wrote several scripts that would have been far more interesting then what we got, Hasbro canceled them all and wrote their own. What was made was a 20 minute episode rather then a two parter, and a complete botching of Twilight's purpose and character.
Just let them do whatever they want with the material, but only buy it when it is interesting or smart or artistic or not a shallow obvious scheme. That will send them a message far better then free press about their new comic.
Just thought I'd bump this to point out that the 2nd issue of this volume of Captain America - Steve rogers has been released and I 100% called it.
As per the hints they had given over the previous few months leading up to this storyline, Captain America was not actually brought up as a Hydra agent. Instead a couple of months ago he had his memories changed by the sentient cosmic cube Kobik to make him think he'd been brought up as loyal to Hydra.
This is basically 100% what I and a few other people who actually read the comics said at the time:
WolfThomas said:
Overhead said:
If you read comics at all, you will be aware that this is a brief storyline that'll last maybe six issues before it's revealed that the Red Skull brainwashed Cap (or made Kobik recreate him different when de-aging him) or something along these lines but because Cap is so good he fights it off and punches Red Skull in the jaw.
It's clearly this. It's like that time everyone was pissed Thor was being replaced with Tanaraus God of Thunder. When it was only a short story about Ulik the Troll using magic to usurp the temporarily dead Thor's place.
Maybe next time there is a story like this in the news, people will hold onto their horses and listen to those in the know rather than being outraged at a situation they don't understand.
Just thought I'd bump this to point out that the 2nd issue of this volume of Captain America - Steve rogers has been released and I 100% called it.
As per the hints they had given over the previous few months leading up to this storyline, Captain America was not actually brought up as a Hydra agent. Instead a couple of months ago he had his memories changed by the sentient cosmic cube Kobik to make him think he'd been brought up as loyal to Hydra.
Just thought I'd bump this to point out that the 2nd issue of this volume of Captain America - Steve rogers has been released and I 100% called it.
As per the hints they had given over the previous few months leading up to this storyline, Captain America was not actually brought up as a Hydra agent. Instead a couple of months ago he had his memories changed by the sentient cosmic cube Kobik to make him think he'd been brought up as loyal to Hydra.
He was still raised a normal non-hydra boy, he has just had his memories changed to think he was a hydra agent.
This is the angle they were always going for seeing as in the months preceding the "Hail Hydra" reveal they had Red Skull (who currently had telepathic mind control powers and was buggering about with a reality warping character) basically rubbing his hands together with glee and going "Bwahaha, now my evil plans which will use Steve Rogers is nearing completion". Hence how myself and several others were able to pretty accurately guess what the situation was, because they'd already laid out the very very astoundingly obvious clues before the reveal.
The only people who think this is a retcon are people not reading the comics.
Just thought I'd bump this to point out that the 2nd issue of this volume of Captain America - Steve rogers has been released and I 100% called it.
As per the hints they had given over the previous few months leading up to this storyline, Captain America was not actually brought up as a Hydra agent. Instead a couple of months ago he had his memories changed by the sentient cosmic cube Kobik to make him think he'd been brought up as loyal to Hydra.
Overhead sort of explained it, but I'll clarify since a lot of people seem to use the concept of retcon way too broadly in cases like this.
Retcon means "retroactive continuity", its when new information imposes an alternative explanation on previous events. The term is also most often used for events that contradict previous events or facts, otherwise you could call any flashback a retcon. In the case of serialized productions like comics or TV shows generally this also must be outside of a current storyline, otherwise any plot twist or revelation could count as a retcon.
In this case with Captain America, neither event is really a retcon as everything is taking place in the present, the past is never actually changed or altered in any way, the plot twist is set up and explained within the story itself.
Captain America having actually secretly been a Hydra agent all along would be a retcon, as it contradicts both Captain America's previously established history, as well as Hydra's history as they didn't exist as Hydra outside Japan until after WWII. Captain America having false memories doesn't actually retcon anything as all the events are current and do not alter any previous lore, or contradict any previously known facts. The setup is entirely in line with previously established facts and lore within the story.
And its because of that is the reason why I think Superhero Comic Books have and are capable of making stories even worse than the worse Superhero movies.
Just thought I'd bump this to point out that the 2nd issue of this volume of Captain America - Steve rogers has been released and I 100% called it.
As per the hints they had given over the previous few months leading up to this storyline, Captain America was not actually brought up as a Hydra agent. Instead a couple of months ago he had his memories changed by the sentient cosmic cube Kobik to make him think he'd been brought up as loyal to Hydra.
Issue 2 will lay a lot of our cards on the table in terms of what the new status quo is, but the one thing we can say unequivocally is: This is not a clone, not an imposter, not mind control, not someone else acting through Steve. This really is Steve Rogers, Captain America himself.
And then they reveal that it is not Steve Rogers, Captain America himself and that it's mind control? Brilliant.
This whole story is ridiculous. It's obvious that turning one of Marvel's most respected heroes into a villain wouldn't sit well with most people, but the worst part of this is that it's pretty damn inconsequential. this is pointless because the status quo must remain unchanged. It's this type of crap that makes comics so god damn irritating.
I'll fully admit this is semantics, but technically reality manipulation is not mind control as there's no actual control over the mind, just a different interpretation of events. The book hasn't explained it yet, if Steve's the only one with a different perspective, but per the author, there's some theme of differing perspectives going on. The author seems to be hinting at Steve and Kobik's view of what Hydra is, might be very different than what the Red Skull thinks it is.
Which would be why the author insisted its not mind control, as Steve is still Steve, he's not being coerced into anything, he is just working from a different frame of reference than usual. Still, if the actual past hasn't been altered, and Steve is the only one with this altered frame of reference, then the difference between reality and a delusion is small, and calling it not mind control is mostly just the comics author being technically correct while still skirting the spirit of what they said. Which is not a surprise, comics have done that as long as they've existed, being "technically" true is pretty much the source of most of these types of revelations since the days of WWII Captain America being brainwashed by Red Skull being insisted on as some great status quo changer.
It is Steve Rogers, Captain America himself. It's also reality warping related brainwashing rather than mind control, but that's a more minor difference in terminology.
Comics and comic writers lie or dance around the truth with things like this all the time. Hell in the 60's they'd have fantastical Superman stories like "Superman finally reveals his secret identity to the world" with a bold disclaimer stating "NOT a dream, NOT an Imaginary Story, Superman finally reveals his identify!". Then of course it would turn out that this was actually the Superman of Earth 7 or Superman has a time travel device which he uses to reset everything or some other excuse that didn't technically violate their statements.
This whole story is ridiculous. It's obvious that turning one of Marvel's most respected heroes into a villain wouldn't sit well with most people, but the worst part of this is that it's pretty damn inconsequential. this is pointless because the status quo must remain unchanged. It's this type of crap that makes comics so god damn irritating.
Not really. Turning him into a villain doesn't matter in the slightest and there's no reason it wouldn't sit well with comic readers. Heroes turn bad all the time, it's a common storyline and that is only temporary and happens relatively frequently. I provided like half a dozen examples of it happening just to Cap earlier in the thread. At the moment several of the X-men have ALSO turned evil in there book, being brainwashed into the Horseman of Apocalypse. Hell, there was an entire company wide crossover a couple of years ago about heroes going evil.
Just thought I'd bump this to point out that the 2nd issue of this volume of Captain America - Steve rogers has been released and I 100% called it.
As per the hints they had given over the previous few months leading up to this storyline, Captain America was not actually brought up as a Hydra agent. Instead a couple of months ago he had his memories changed by the sentient cosmic cube Kobik to make him think he'd been brought up as loyal to Hydra.
Just thought I'd bump this to point out that the 2nd issue of this volume of Captain America - Steve rogers has been released and I 100% called it.
As per the hints they had given over the previous few months leading up to this storyline, Captain America was not actually brought up as a Hydra agent. Instead a couple of months ago he had his memories changed by the sentient cosmic cube Kobik to make him think he'd been brought up as loyal to Hydra.
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