Reclaiming SJW
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See, at first I was cracking up (because that was really funny) but then I realized you missed the point of my OP.Kalezian said:
Which was to distance myself and terminology that I think is important from the ignorant and stupid on Tumblr.
Also, imagine for a second that you DO have to be a Paladin in a world where everyone judges you for a few stupid actions made by a vast minority of your peers. Wouldn't that suck?
Wouldn't you want to call ignorant posts like mine out on being stupid and ignorant? Wouldn't it feel really crappy when people told you you were being unreasonably for trying to show them how ignorant they were being?
Yea, that's what reasonable SJW's feel like ALL THE TIME. It doesn't help that a number of them are just like those unreasonable Paladin's... *sighs*
Damn dirty hipster ninja, but well said.Dirty Hipsters said:
OT: My main problem with the social justice warrior crowd isn't the inanity in what they say or their stupidity in thinking that a post will change anything. My problems with them comes in five parts.
1. They want social evolution to take place in an instant.
2. They are far too hostile
3. They lack any understanding of cultural, sociological, and political evolution. (seriously I can't stand the term "Cultural Appropriation)
4. They refuse to try and understand those they disagree with, instead opting to mold them into an enemy to fight.
5. They refuse to accept any criticism whatsoever.
The fact that, despite my personal agreeance with many of their sentiments, (gender equality, gay rights, anti virgin/slut shaming, etc). These things combined make me wholly against them. Because of prevailing attitudes withing the social justice warrior subculture means that any time I want to argue a point that they share, I first have to put a little caveat before my statement that states that I do not align myself with these assholes, and worst of all it's causing women to abandon and openly rebel against feminism because of the dialogs put forth by the social justice warriors.
And don't even get me started on men's rights activist.
The problem with that is that it's a male dominated culture that's doing all the oppressing. Yes, it is a HUMAN issue. Which is why it's so awesome to see men identifying as feminists. But at the end of the day most of these issues stem from a male dominated system of oppression, and so they become issues that disproportionately effect women, and that's what allows one to say that it's feminist issues. It's women's issues.Namehere said:
Honestly, I'm not even entirely sure how to respond to your post. *laughs* You spent the whole post being like "These horrible problems disproportionately effect women which is why we should stop making them about women!"
Can you explain more please? *Smiles* *Sincere*
That's always been one of the worst parts about my experiences and dealing with them. The presumption that I have not faced real racism because white people in the west simply don't face institutionalized racism. I've always wondered how many of the institutions have to be complicit or complacent before the racism becomes real institutionalized racism though. I think I need to beg your pardon as I feel compelled to share a bit of my life, which will likely not be a riveting read. I just don't see how else I can get my point across without it.thaluikhain said:
In my youth I lived in a poor neighborhood made up mostly of black people. I went to a school that was about 90% black and who's staff had two white and one Latino teacher. Me and my siblings were the regular target of rather vicious attacks motivated by the fact that we were white. Many, many complaints to the school, the police and to anyone else who would listen went unanswered. Upon one of the more vicious beatings I received, where I was held down and beaten with an aluminum bat, I was able to free myself by kicking one of my assailants in the face, breaking his nose.
I ended up sitting in front of the principle, who was a black man, along with the boy I had "attacked". He and I were both suspended from school for fighting. I protested, bringing up the numerous attacks that had never led to any black student being suspended and was told to basically shut my mouth. I was sent to sit in the waiting area while my parents were contacted and got to overhear a conversation between the principal and one of the staff. He said that he wasn't going to let some white kid's complaints about bullying ruin some black kid's future. It seemed that me getting beaten was some kind of karmic justice for all the wrongs done to black people by white people.
Calls to the police did nothing of course, since police didn't care about the neighborhood. I've always been told that cops don't bother with poor neighborhoods because the people there are minorities, but it seemed my white privilege wasn't enough to overcome that barrier to action either. My parents, much to my disbelief, actually tried to contact the NAACP for help. Needless to say, we didn't get a call back and there really wasn't a white people's organization to help with that sort of thing. Afterall, white people's organization is the government and the government works for white people; well, the rich ones anyway.
We were able to move away eventually (my father was in the army) and I was so excited and relived I actually cried. Our next stop was Germany and we ended up settled on the border between a German dominated area which boasted two skin-head gangs who weren't keen on Americans and a Turkish dominated area who's youth weren't keen on white, blue-eyed kids with brown hair and a German last name. I won't spend another four paragraphs on that, but I will say it was bad, really, really bad and no one in any position of power gave a damn.
So I leave it up to you, was that real racism? My beatings were based on my race, so that seems to fit. People in the positions of power actively or passively encouraged what was going on. Every institution that mattered to me and my situation was either complacent or complicit. But I still get to hear people say with a straight face that, while really unfortunate, it wasn't real bonified racism, not like the racism the black kid or his gang who beat the ever living crap out of me daily had to deal with. Poor kid, maybe if I understood what real racism was like, I could have understood why the guy holding the bat was the real victim.
I ended up sitting in front of the principle, who was a black man, along with the boy I had "attacked". He and I were both suspended from school for fighting. I protested, bringing up the numerous attacks that had never led to any black student being suspended and was told to basically shut my mouth. I was sent to sit in the waiting area while my parents were contacted and got to overhear a conversation between the principal and one of the staff. He said that he wasn't going to let some white kid's complaints about bullying ruin some black kid's future. It seemed that me getting beaten was some kind of karmic justice for all the wrongs done to black people by white people.
Calls to the police did nothing of course, since police didn't care about the neighborhood. I've always been told that cops don't bother with poor neighborhoods because the people there are minorities, but it seemed my white privilege wasn't enough to overcome that barrier to action either. My parents, much to my disbelief, actually tried to contact the NAACP for help. Needless to say, we didn't get a call back and there really wasn't a white people's organization to help with that sort of thing. Afterall, white people's organization is the government and the government works for white people; well, the rich ones anyway.
We were able to move away eventually (my father was in the army) and I was so excited and relived I actually cried. Our next stop was Germany and we ended up settled on the border between a German dominated area which boasted two skin-head gangs who weren't keen on Americans and a Turkish dominated area who's youth weren't keen on white, blue-eyed kids with brown hair and a German last name. I won't spend another four paragraphs on that, but I will say it was bad, really, really bad and no one in any position of power gave a damn.
So I leave it up to you, was that real racism? My beatings were based on my race, so that seems to fit. People in the positions of power actively or passively encouraged what was going on. Every institution that mattered to me and my situation was either complacent or complicit. But I still get to hear people say with a straight face that, while really unfortunate, it wasn't real bonified racism, not like the racism the black kid or his gang who beat the ever living crap out of me daily had to deal with. Poor kid, maybe if I understood what real racism was like, I could have understood why the guy holding the bat was the real victim.
Sorry again for the length of this, and sorry if any of this long-winded story comes off as having a nasty tone. I am not as detached from these happenings as I would like to be. This story, and many others I could share, are the reason I am fixated on equality. Equality matters to me because I know, really do know, what it's like to be on the receiving end of the sort of racial hatred that people of all races have to endure when put into a position of powerlessness. And yet people tell me I don't know. That I can't possibly know what it's really like. I guess that's why I don't say that I'm fighting for "white's rights" or black's rights" or "women's rights", I just fight for equality because I believe that everyone matters and that justice is personal.
Edit: Added spoiler tags so I'm not eating valuable realestate.
As I understand it, it means that racism is a constant across the board, a problem in all areas of society, and something that can be escaped from anywhere in that society.Gorrath said:
Rather than a matter of which and how many individual institutions are racist, that racism has become an institution in of itself. Again, this is only how I understand it, I can't claim to be an expert.
There's no reason to apologise for that, people shouldn't be expected to be detached from their experiences.Gorrath said:
Not really. People will be reactionary, or not, you can't stop them by being reasonable, or watering down your stance, or anything else. If people are against equality, they will be against equality, you can't convince them otherwise.archiebawled said:
Note: Heavy editing was made from the original at the bottom.dragonswarrior said:
Any time a word is hijacked, there's no going back. The Tea Party is a great example. It was originally a bi-partisan group that wanted to reduce federal spending. Nothing more. Then it got jacked by mainstream Republican politicians and turned into the morality-crusading fucks that they are today, with the originals being forced to abandon the name.
Don't forget that lame and moron and idiot all were originally medical terms like retarded. Once moron started being used to make fun of people, doctors switched to another term. Eventually they switched to retarded, which is all but completely used as a general slur like moron and idiot.
Once a word starts being used in an unrelated or different context, just accept it and either ditch it or accept it as an alternate definition, because there is no stopping it.
Otherwise, here's a guy that said another part amazingly, especially the last part:
Side note: don't forget that how no matter how much you yell about how 'privileged' some Americans are over other Americans, EVERY demographic has largely ignored problems today. One that sits in plain sight but that no one even sees, for example, is that men are far worse off in nearly every part of the court system, from male inmates reporting FAR more sexual assault than female inmates, and from how harsh sentences for males over females, and definitely in relation to custody/alimony.shootthebandit said:
Don't take this to mean that I only care about male issues; of course not. I make sure to point out ALL issues that are largely unknown, male or female, black or white. Instead of pointing out the victims that everyone already knows about, I point out the victims that have remained in the shadows, which is an added punishment on top of their normal victimization.
Because feminism has a LOT of baggage, and a lot of questionable dogma even in the mainstream bits. I disagree vehemently with second wave feminism on a lot of issues outside of the measurable equality bits, and even then they often go too far, wanting supremacy rather than equality. They want to replace the "patriarchy"(which really is more of a money-based oligarchy, it's rule by the rich), with a matriarchy. Second wave is also where a lot of it became adversarial, where men are the enemy. Anita Sarkeesian is a second wave feminist.dragonswarrior said:
Third wave is more fractured than anything, I'd agree with some flanges, while vehemently disagreeing with others.
I just wanna say that this is a really odd statement. Of course male rape doesn't lessen the severity of female rape. It's mainly seen as a male-on-female crime, and that was his point. The fact that you're taking what is largely seen as a male-on-female crime and saying that male rape doesn't lessen the severity of female rape (even though it's the former that is more often trivialized) almost implies that you feel male rape is less severe than female rape. Now, reading your other posts, it's clear that that's not what you meant or how you feel, but taken completely on its own with no regard to the rest of your posts, it kinda implies that, so I just found the post to be pretty strange.thaluikhain said:
On a separate note, I do agree that rape is a feminist issue, because, while they're both horrible, male rape and female rape both have their own issues that the other has to a lesser extent: female rape has much more victim blaming and more claims of false accusation (i.e. someone saying "you just regret having sex so you're crying that it's rape"), and male rape is more often trivialized (and even seen as comic) and victims are often seen as "less of a man" or have their masculinity come into question.
Nor am I, I've had it explained to me before that institutionalized racism is racism that goes beyond individuals and takes roots in institutions as well, such as government or education. Here's the definition offered by Wikipedia:thaluikhain said:
Institutional racism is any system of inequality based on race. It can occur in institutions such as public government bodies, private business corporations (such as media outlets), and universities (public and private). The term was introduced by Black Power activists Stokely Carmichael and Charles V. Hamilton in the late 1960s.[1] The definition given by William Macpherson within the report looking into the death of Stephen Lawrence was ?the collective failure of an organization to provide an appropriate and professional service to people because of their colour, culture, or ethnic origin?.[2]
That's the one I was addressing with my story, that white people can and do experience a suspension of appropriate professional service in various organizations. It is rare as hell, I freely admit, as my experiences are hardly the norm. But I think any society dealing with issues of equality cannot turn a blind eye to it anywhere it exists. In the west, some have become so concerned with the racism people of color face that white people in similar circumstances are outright ignored, to the point where you basically get told that it is literally impossible by definition for a white person to experience racism. I think that's an awful sentiment and unworthy of a people who say, "Equality is good, racism, sexism, ect. are bad!" Some people who claim to be all about equality, seem to really not mind inequality that doesn't fit with their preconceived notions about race (or other) relations.
Thanks for your understanding, I just don't want anyone I converse with to think I am being intentionally nasty towards them if I get a bit heated.
Eh, I see what you're saying, (and good on you for caring about all issues while pointing out less well known ones! Just be careful you don't drown out other peoples voices by accident.) but the point of calling someone out on their privilege is just that: Calling someone out on their privilege. In that situation. At that time. It isn't about (or it SHOULDN'T be about) saying "White cis-males have it easier than everyone else all the time and that's bad!!" it's saying "Hey, maybe you have this offensive viewpoint or are hurting these people unintentionally because you benefit from this type of privilege, and maybe you want to self examine that?"chadachada123 said:
As to the point about reclaiming terms... I know I KNOW!! I am aware it's almost certainly a doomed cause. But hey, that's why I'm making this point on one website rather than trying to organize a protest rally. *shrugs* I'm just trying to get a couple of folks to think hopefully ya know?
Also, I check my privilege (and get my privilege checked) daily. It isn't fun. Additionally, there is a shit ton of social justice work that needs to happen at home, the whole "Bad things only happen in other places" is a dangerous and provably false viewpoint. Additionally additionally, a lot of the whole "Build schools and hospitals in other places" is like applying a band-aid to a sword cut. A necessary band aid sure, but it doesn't fix the colonialist system of exploitation and oppression that causes situations where schools and hospitals desperately need to be built in the first place.
When are they ever political? Anything I've ever seen of this bunch, none of it has to do with politics or parties.Zontar said:
Well, in my experience, I almost never come across male rape in a conversation without it being used to try to dismiss female rape. There are very many people who care passionately about men being raped in prisons, but only during discussions of women being raped, who stop caring once the discussion ends. Admittedly, I expect that many people aren't intentionally doing this, they just find acknowledging female rape to be confronting, and so switch to a legitimate other concern they fail to maintain interest in.And Man said:
I'd agree with that, yeah.And Man said:
Oh, certainly, everyone retains their own prejudices and biases, at least to an extent, and it will get the better of them every so often. It's much easier to point out someone else's privilege, much easier to spot false narratives when they clash with your own life.Gorrath said:
In this particular case, though, I think it is also because it is fairly rare for white people to experience it, but so much not to claim to have (for one reason or another). Legitimate examples get lost in the false ones.
Because it isn't my job to change my labels based on other idiots views of them/use of them. Why would I let them win that game? I would like to think it's the responsibility of those around me to judge me based on the quality of my thoughts. And many do, which is why I feel okay with going into this. This thread is about getting people to think after all, and I think there has been a lot of reasonable discussion in addition to the haters.archiebawled said:
Ha!! A limb. Funny. Again, it's about the system. It's a patriarchal system that effects men and women, and effects women disproportionately. It also isn't anyone's job to go out and say "Hey, we are gonna talk about issues that effect women, but I just want to say that some of them effect men too." Rather, it has to be assumed that the folks you are talking to are aware of these things, and that if someone says something stupid then they will be corrected in that moment. Just like I wouldn't want a discussion about men being raped to begin with "We know rape effects women too." That's not what that discussion is about you know? But they are extremely closely linked, and stem from many of the same problems. It's not about trying to include men, it's about being like "These are PROBLEMS man, and if you're a decent person you will want them to end even if you don't actively fight them, whether you are a man or a woman."archiebawled said:
That got a little ramble-y but I feel I ended with the best point. Which is, these are problems that effect people, in some cases horribly. If you see that then there is no reason for a problem to try and be inclusive. It's just a problem that needs to be fixed. It's ALREADY inclusive.
*laughing* I can't tell if you're being sarcastic or sincere, but I'll give you the benefit of the doubt and say "sincere". *grins*archiebawled said:
You exploit a privileged background just by living it. It's an unfortunate fact of life. However, I've gotten REALLY good at checking myself (heh) and so you don't need to worry. *grins* When you've had as much practice as I've had you get to a point where after the initial "Dammit I fucked up again!" moment of shame you fix what you were doing and move on feeling better. It's actually quite liberating. I don't carry any residual guilt for my background, because that's not the point of privilege checking. The point is... Well, thinking about and checking your privilege. *laughs* Not feeling like you're a bad person because of how you were born. It's only when you refuse to acknowledge the advantages that you have due to freak accident of birth that I feel you actually have something to feel guilty about.
That still doesn't make checking or being checked fun. It's bloody uncomfortable, and it does feel bad. It's just that the aftereffects of the thought process feel quite good.
My issue with the whole 'check your privilege' deal is that while self-proclaimed SJWs always claim it's not meant to be hostile (which is reasonable, because it shouldn't be), many are awfully quick to do a 180 on that and use it as a personal attack against people who disagree with them. Despite what it may have originally meant, too many use it as a way of calling someone's character into question and discrediting any arguments they may have.thaluikhain said:
And please, before you make a snap judgment about me, know that I used to 'check my privilege' before I even knew that phrase existed. Once I started seeing it though (or more accurately, seeing how it was most commonly used), my attitude... changed. I can no longer bring myself to acknowledge these sorts of things like I used to.
I get that it's unfathomably illogical to let teenage extremists alter how I think, but I just can't get past it. At least in my mind, they've turned an understandable plea for analysis of one's default position in life into a vicious attack meant to invoke shame and silence.
Does this sword cut both ways? When people make molehills out of mountains we tell them to check their privilege. When someone makes mountains out of molehills, do we tell them to check their...victim complex, I guess? Is there a better term for it?thaluikhain said:
Actually that story is intense, hardly dull. I also second Thalu in saying that you never have to apologize for getting emotional or heated over such things.Gorrath said:
I do wish to say that from you story it seems like a lot of the problems you encountered stemmed from institutionalized racism against Black Americans, and classism against lower income/lower class families. The whole lack of police presence, shitty schools, etc. I think the principal was way out of line, but that doesn't make it institutionalized racism against white people. When the system you found yourself in was created by an racist institution against PoC in the US, it becomes really murky territory towards trying to say there is institutionalized racism against whites.
I am NOT trying to say that this invalidates the horrible shitty situation you and your family were placed in or the fact that no one would do anything to help you, whatever skin color they were. I am REALLY not.
But I am saying that it was actually the fault of the white dominated racist institution, as opposed to a smaller PoC dominated institution that was racist towards whites. Think about it, if Children of Color were given access to decent schools and police forces, would any of that had happened to you?
Maybe, but I think it's a lot less likely.
I can't comment on the German situation at all.
P.S This gets really tricky. I'm not trying to invalidate your story or your experience. Just asking you to look at it a different way.
So as usual the common theme here is "do you agree with me or are you wrong"? Sorry to break it to you guys but feminism and social justice warriors do not have a monopoly on equality. Disagreeing with or being anti(insert ideology) does not mean you are against equality. This is one of the many reasons people distance themselves from labels like SJW or feminism. Taking what you feel is a moral high ground does not mean you are right and anyone who disagrees with you is wrong. Tyranny under the moral busybody and what not.
OP: You are going to have a hard time taking back a term that was assigned by other people in a negative way. The word warrior in this context is an insult, not something to be proud of. Instead of trying to reclaim SJW maybe you should examine the behavior that made people come up with that term in the first place. Maybe the problem is you and not other people. Once again, hard to imagine when you have assumed what you think is the moral high ground but a bit of introspection may be helpful here.
OP: You are going to have a hard time taking back a term that was assigned by other people in a negative way. The word warrior in this context is an insult, not something to be proud of. Instead of trying to reclaim SJW maybe you should examine the behavior that made people come up with that term in the first place. Maybe the problem is you and not other people. Once again, hard to imagine when you have assumed what you think is the moral high ground but a bit of introspection may be helpful here.
So because you read a sociology/history textbook that invalidates another persons feelings? They should just shut up and stop being so offended all the time because "This is just how culture and society work"? I call bullshit.chiggerwood said:
... ... Can't really argue with the other four points though. I believe however, in my OP I agreed that many of them are stupid, but SOME OF THEM ARE NOT. I don't think it wise that one should ignore everything a group tries to say based on the crass barkings of it's lesser members. If that was true I'd never admit that male rape was a problem at all. And it is. It's just that so many MRA's are bloody stupid about it.