Reclaiming SJW

[ultratog1028]

Hello Escapist!!

So, this is definitely the topic of the week, and I'm about to throw in my two cents.

Anyway, I identify as an Uber-Nerd Social Justice Warrior. And I've been hearing a LOT of rage lately against social justice warriors. A LOT. Most of it seems to centered around Tumblr and how ridiculous people are on there.

Now... For the longest time this made me angry. I happen to follow a small group of self identified social justice warriors on Tumblr, and I generally find that the points they make are REALLY good. They are a group of incredibly smart, educated folks and I've learned a lot from them over the years. However, I am aware that their views are considered extreme by many people, and unfortunately I've had to watch them over and over again defend themselves from masses of ignorant haters who don't want to listen to uncomfortable truths.

But... Well. I was reminded a couple of days ago that there are a LOT of folks on Tumblr that identify as social justice warriors that are... well...

They're shitty people. They're ignorant and offensive and horrible.

Specifically in this case I'm referring to those "Head Mate" folks. You know, the ones that claim that they share a brain with werewolves and whatnot and then jump down your throat when you try to call them out for their privileged ridiculousness. I was reminded of how they exist, and how they are all on the social justice warrior bandwagon, and how they are EXACTLY the kind of thing that other social justice warriors like me fight (If you want an explanation for this ask, I don't want to do it in the OP.)

And I know this is the internet, I'm sure that there are tons of others like this out there all being this kind of stupid.

SO!!!! I REFUSE to allow these shitheads to stain and tarnish a term and identity that was around for years before they were even aware social problems existed! Well, okay, they've already stained and tarnished it, but I refuse to allow that to pressure me into identifying as something else!!

tl;dr I will not stop referring to myself as a Social Justice Warrior because of ignorant shitheads who wouldn't know social justice if it slapped them in the face. I will continue to tell privileged folk to check their privilege despite the bad wrap that phrase has gotten, and I will continue to fight the good fight with words and deeds no matter how often the ignorant try to pull me down!! Huzzah!!

I'm in a similar boat. I like the ideas of equality. However some people are too zealot-like. If you want equality at the price of tearing others down, you don't want equality in my eyes. So don't even call yourself a SJW. Just like asking people to be nice doesn't Auto-make you a White Knight, wanting Equality doesn't make you a Social Justice Warrior.

 

[IamLEAM1983]

I... don't really like the term, honestly. "Social Justice Warrior" sounds like something that would actually be a complete contradiction coming from someone who'd, say, take after Gandhi or Martin Luther King.

As honestly, I've seen some laughably poor rhetoric being spewed on Tumblr. Stuff along the lines of "Don't you go dissing on the Mahatma, or else I'll have to get physical with you!"; that being said without an ounce of sarcasm.

Most people who stick to the SJW tag really have no idea as to what they're doing, OP. And honestly, others are probably right when they say you might need to check your privilege. Sacrifice your time, money or health for causes you deem worthwhile, and then you'll have earned all of the moral authority you'd possibly need in order to evangelize this or that hot-button issue.

I'm probably sounding like an enormous ass for saying this, but raising outrage on any issue when you're not knee-deep in it yourself feels a bit presumptuous, if not arrogant. I'm reminded of college kids who'd protest against China for its economic sanctions against Tibet, but they'd balk if you asked them if they had anything on their minds besides painting signs and skipping class.

Actually going out there, losing your Wi-Fi coverage and Netflix access and *maybe* living under a tent or spending time with cagey people who may or may not have guns pointed at you because you're on the other side of the political fence? Heaven forbid, no! Tumblr's way safer!

So, yeah. In all honesty, OP - don't try and "reclaim" any title. Just do whatever you feel needs doing, and for what feels like a good cause. You don't need a handy-dandy label to stick on yourself because you're an especially conscientious sort; we can probably see that ourselves.

 

[Saetha]

When you made a faulty assumption based on that statement, I pointed out the flaw in that thinking.

It wasn't an assumption, it was an observation based on limited information. I actually appreciate you providing clarity on it in the form of additional statistics, which was all you needed to do. Where things go sideways is when you assume internet forum "You're with me or against me" mode and sneeringly imply I'm hand waving male rape victims because I questioned a statement you made.

...Okay, yes, I was being... reactionary and hostile with that statement. I apologize for making it and accusing you unjustly.

Similarly, a lot of kids in juvy report being sexually victimized by women - 94% of victims abused by staff members reported a female attacker

I expect this mirrors prison assault, where the gender of the assaulter is primarily opposite gender. What is the ratio of male to female offenders in juvenile detention? For that matter, what is the ratio for male to female inmates in the US? Is this a "male rape" problem specifically, as you imply, or an institutional problem with prisons, where inmates are routinely abused by guards regardless of gender?

The source I cited addresses some of this - the first source (I'll put it here so you don't have to dig it up: http://www.bjs.gov/content/pub/pdf/svpjri0809.pdf ) shows the rate of victimization of men compared to women - men have a higher rate in both jail and prison (First bullet point on the second column of page 4) For juvy, the rate of female victimization by a staff member's about 5%, compared to 11% for boys. (Source: http://www.bjs.gov/content/pub/pdf/svjfry09.pdf Last two columns of the table on page 11)

As for breakdown of gender of the general prison population - women make up less than one-tenth (Source: http://www.bjs.gov/content/pub/pdf/p10.pdf Table on page 2) The numbers for juvenile detention are a bit more equal - women make up about one-seventh (Source: http://www.ojjdp.gov/ojstatbb/ezacjrp/asp/display.asp )

All that being said... I'm not entirely comfortable with gendering this as a solely male problem either. It can happen to anyone. As those sources I posted show, girls in juvy are more likely to be victimized by other students (Same table on page 11) And women in prison are twice as likely to report being victimized by another inmate than men are. (Again, page 4, but the last bullet point in the first column.) While the breakdown of general demographics means there's a lot fewer female victims than male ones, it's still a problem that needs fixing.

General rape shouldn't be gendered, but prison rape shouldn't be either.

Several reports on sexual abuse in schools show that those investigated or disciplined for sexual misconduct are mostly men (80-90%)

Can you source this statistic? I don't even doubt it, I suspect it is correct, but you've been very diligent about sourcing statistics.

It was on the same table I posted for sexual abuse by educators. (Let dig that one up again, too: http://www2.ed.gov/rschstat/research/pubs/misconductreview/report.pdf ) The table page 33 shows seven studies. The five to the right - Corbett to Shakeshaft and Cohen - only looked at the records of which educators had been investigated and disciplined. All show a massive gender disparity, in the range of 80 to 95%, despite more direct studies showing more gender parity (Those are the two studies on the left of the column) The studies' and their methodologies are all explained on the bottom half of 32.

The actual percentage is probably even bigger, considering how people speculate that men don't come forward with this stuff.

People also speculate that women don't "come forward with this stuff". Given the general respect shown to rape victims by the legal system or society at large, neither gender can really be blamed for being hesitant to come forward. Women are slut shamed or have their judgment questioned, and men are laughed at.

True... it just irks me when people say that the justice system is unfair to female rape victims, when many male victims can't, by the legal definition of rape, actually accuse their rapist. It's unfair to all victims, really.

The number of reported male rape in prison is actually larger than the number of reported rape period for general society.

The rate of reported rape (sexual victimization, by those studies, I realize that "rape" can be employed as a blanket term in some lobbies and that you're probably doing the same here for effect) actually seems dramatically higher in prison than in "general society", possibly because it's institutionalized.

I bring all this up because no one cares.

Lots of people care. I know a great many people who have spoken on the issue passionately. Ironically, all of them women aside from myself, but I imagine a great many men I know would feel the same, because I know a lot of thoughtful, intelligent, liberal men. What I find unusual about your stance on this issue is how combative/accusatory it is. You seem to take a very zero sum attitude towards male/female rape.

No, I realize I was being overly hostile to you before. I try to keep calm and rational and understand that people respond far better to gentle reasoning than wild threats and accusations. I suppose at that moment... I dunno. I really, sincerely apologize.

And I also try to maintain that rape's a problem that effects everyone, and both men and women deserve attention and support for it. I just so rarely find those who would give it to the former, at least on the level that they need. People seeing it as a zero-sum game is precisely the issue I so often have. I don't mean to draw attention away from female victims. Just... point out that the issue isn't always as clear-cut as it's made to be, and that the attitudes many hold end up screwing over a lot of victims.

 

[Frankster]

No, I realize I was being overly hostile to you before. I try to keep calm and rational and understand that people respond far better to gentle reasoning than wild threats and accusations. I suppose at that moment... I dunno. I really, sincerely apologize.

I actually appreciate you providing clarity on it in the form of additional statistics

Man if only more conversations on this topic were like this in these threads. High 5 to the both of ya.

 

[BloatedGuppy]

I really, sincerely apologize.

Well now...that's pretty rare. In life, and especially on the internet. Take some delicious cookies. You've...you've earned them.

And thanks for the additional work on sourcing the stats, I appreciate it. Digging through PDFs isn't anyone's idea of a good time.

And I also try to maintain that rape's a problem that effects everyone, and both men and women deserve attention and support for it.

I think we can all agree on that. And if we find someone who does not agree, we will hurl potatoes at them.

 

[Addendum_Forthcoming]

I... don't really like the term, honestly. "Social Justice Warrior" sounds like something that would actually be a complete contradiction coming from someone who'd, say, take after Gandhi or Martin Luther King.

As honestly, I've seen some laughably poor rhetoric being spewed on Tumblr. Stuff along the lines of "Don't you go dissing on the Mahatma, or else I'll have to get physical with you!"; that being said without an ounce of sarcasm.

So.....

I agree, that is retarded. "I disagree with your rhetoric as it perpetrates violence against (x) ... people like you should be 'd."

That being said, why would you expect actual debate from Tumblr? That's like expecting a beehive to have a prepared jar of honey for you without having to do any searching or getting overly sticky. If you were actually looking for a debate, why not hop onto a university blog, forum, or those online things which have lecturers and researchers debating eachother in various video and text feed ... things ... I forget what they are called.

Or just hop on down to your local university campus during their open debate panels when a particular topic pops up. Last I recall, I was no longer a student, but they never checked student passcards to see if I were just visiting with a few friends who were currently students.

People don't usually go online with the specific cause of exercising their brain. They go online to post pictures of their animals, watch movies and organise with their friends. Expecting more than this is a bit unfair in the first place.

The aerage person isn't stupid, but that's not to say that the average person does not switch off their brains for 12 hours each day. I know I'm guilty of it, guilty as anyone could possibly be guilty of something not even marginally enforceable by common law. I do it at work ... I shut off my brain until I'm actually requested to do something, or need to organise with the rest of my team ... if you kept your brain switched on every hour of the day you'd go insane. That or suicidally depressed ...

 

[Dirty Hipsters]

In this context, saying "check your privilege" isn't (or shouldn't be) telling someone that they can't comment on an issue, it's telling someone that their viewpoint isn't objective, that they are looking at an issue from an outsider's perspective, which is very different from that of people who have to deal with the issue directly. The perspective of someone that doesn't have to deal with an issue isn't automatically the best one to examine it with.

No one's viewpoint is objective, so by that very fact saying that check your privilege means "your viewpoint isn't objective" just means that "check your privilege" means absolutely nothing. Your viewpoint isn't objective if you're not in a specific group, but your viewpoint is also not objective even if you are part of that group.

"Check your privilege" is just a catchphrase that's used to tell people to shut up. It's basically the same thing as saying "you weren't there, you don't know."

 

[Thaluikhain]

Your viewpoint isn't objective if you're not in a specific group, but your viewpoint is also not objective even if you are part of that group.

Of course, it's only a problem if people are acting like their viewpoint is objective.

It's basically the same thing as saying "you weren't there, you don't know."

If you like, I guess.

 

[Sansha]

I will continue to tell privileged folk to check their privilege despite the bad wrap that phrase has gotten, and I will continue to fight the good fight with words and deeds no matter how often the ignorant try to pull me down!

Okay, serious question - I'm a white, straight, cisgender male who grew up wealthy, and now - age 26 - am building my own wealth. I own my home in a safe neighborhood, am completely debt free, have a career I love without having to go to college, and am engaged to be married to a woman who shares my position and orientation.

Now, in regards to checking my privilege - of which I clearly have a substantial amount - what exactly does that mean, and what do you propose I do about it?

 

[Azure23]

Honestly a lot of the SJW types are just holier-than-thou haters. Racism and sexism is rife, it's just that they hate whites, males and those who are comfortable with the gender identity that matches their sex, oh and sane people. It's the left-wing equivalent to right-wing white supremacist groups.

I used to identify as a male feminist, until I figured out just how cancerous feminism and any other us vs them ism is, even the term is divisive. I just consider myself an equalist/egalitarian now.

Uggh, cool. You're for all the equality all the time for everyone. Saying you're an equalist doesn't mean a damn thing unless you specify who you believe needs the equality. People who care about social justice (dumb warrior tag or not) hate whites, males, and those who are comfortable with the gender identity that "matches" their gender? There are so many problems worth that sentence I can barely even begin to address them.
I guess I'll just start at the start. If all of that rant up there is true: how is it that I'm male, white, heterosexual, and engaged to a fire spewing, cloven hoofed, tumblr using feminist (kidding, she's actually very charming)? It gets even better, her younger sister is bisexual and has a very popular tumblr blog which is about (gasp) social justice (and also Game of thrones and videogames). Clearly by the virtue of my whiteness and penis possession I should be their mortal enemy. Luckily for me my feminist fiancé was not a horrible harpy waiting to snip my dick off, but a reasonable person who grew to look past my white, straight, maleness. Hopefully by now you realize that your rash arguments are massive and absurd generalizations, with that in mind can I just say that the vast majority of people who care about SJ on tumblr don't hate white people, or males, or straight people. They hate stupid people and people that do horrible things like oppress and murder and rape. And for all the extremist viewpoints expressed by a very small minority on tumblr, I see ten idiots threatening murder over the next balance patch to their favorite fucking game. Say what you want about those extremists, but at least they're angry over something that matters worth two shits on the long scale.

And you know what? Take a fucking freshman sociology class, any dumbass college kid will tell you that gender is socially constructed and it doesn't have anything to do with biological sex. So don't give me any more of that "gender that matches their sex" idiocy. Clearly you were never a feminist of any description, I don't know any who would put up with that bullshit.

 

[Sansha]

And you know what? Take a fucking freshman sociology class, any dumbass college kid will tell you that gender is socially constructed and it doesn't have anything to do with biological sex. So don't give me any more of that "gender that matches their sex" idiocy. Clearly you were never a feminist of any description, I don't know any who would put up with that bullshit.

I disagree. I believe gender is ingrained in your mind from birth.

There was an experiment a while ago where a boy's penis was accidentally amputated shortly after birth, so they raised him as a girl, dressing him in girl's clothes and treating him feminine. He continued to display male tendencies throughout his life and the anxiety of his mismatched identification resulted in suicide.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/David_Reimer

This, to me, proves that your gender is ingrained in your mind, and no amount of social constructs can change what your mind believes. I think the social construct part of it is whether or not people choose to embrace it and come out as such.

 

[Thaluikhain]

And you know what? Take a fucking freshman sociology class, any dumbass college kid will tell you that gender is socially constructed and it doesn't have anything to do with biological sex. So don't give me any more of that "gender that matches their sex" idiocy. Clearly you were never a feminist of any description, I don't know any who would put up with that bullshit.

I disagree. I believe gender is ingrained in your mind from birth.

There was an experiment a while ago where a boy's penis was accidentally amputated shortly after birth, so they raised him as a girl, dressing him in girl's clothes and treating him feminine. He continued to display male tendencies throughout his life and the anxiety of his mismatched identification resulted in suicide.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/David_Reimer

This, to me, proves that your gender is ingrained in your mind, and no amount of social constructs can change what your mind believes. I think the social construct part of it is whether or not people choose to embrace it and come out as such.

Wasn't that experiment rather horribly done, though?

In any case, gender roles vary between societies..

 

[AJ_Lethal]

Okay, serious question - I'm a white, straight, cisgender male who grew up wealthy, and now - age 26 - am building my own wealth. I own my home in a safe neighborhood, am completely debt free, have a career I love without having to go to college, and am engaged to be married to a woman who shares my position and orientation.

Now, in regards to checking my privilege - of which I clearly have a substantial amount - what exactly does that mean, and what do you propose I do about it?

Because if you're a white straight dude you must lack emphaty, according to SJWs.

"Check your privilege" either implies that you:

A) are a white cisgendered person (a projection/gross generalization)
B) that white cisgendered people lack emphaty (a stupidly cynical assumption made from a gross generalization based on ill concieved precepts, which is intellectually dishonest and leads to hypocrisy)

"Check your privilege" is either a cheap, hamfisted attempt to induce emphaty (or guilt) or just a way to attempt to end an argument by the means of force.

Sharing you life story is a better way to induce emphaty.

 

[Thaluikhain]

I will continue to tell privileged folk to check their privilege despite the bad wrap that phrase has gotten, and I will continue to fight the good fight with words and deeds no matter how often the ignorant try to pull me down!

Okay, serious question - I'm a white, straight, cisgender male who grew up wealthy, and now - age 26 - am building my own wealth. I own my home in a safe neighborhood, am completely debt free, have a career I love without having to go to college, and am engaged to be married to a woman who shares my position and orientation.

Now, in regards to checking my privilege - of which I clearly have a substantial amount - what exactly does that mean, and what do you propose I do about it?

Well...acknowledging that those things give you certain societal benefits that not everyone has, that affects interactions between both you and them and the way you both interact with others in society, and that this is unfair. That something isn't fine even if it is fine for you.

Now, of course this is fairly basic, commonsense stuff. It's just that it's something that is very easily overlooked even if you're actively making an effort.

 

[Lilani]

And you know what? Take a fucking freshman sociology class, any dumbass college kid will tell you that gender is socially constructed and it doesn't have anything to do with biological sex. So don't give me any more of that "gender that matches their sex" idiocy. Clearly you were never a feminist of any description, I don't know any who would put up with that bullshit.

I disagree. I believe gender is ingrained in your mind from birth.

There was an experiment a while ago where a boy's penis was accidentally amputated shortly after birth, so they raised him as a girl, dressing him in girl's clothes and treating him feminine. He continued to display male tendencies throughout his life and the anxiety of his mismatched identification resulted in suicide.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/David_Reimer

This, to me, proves that your gender is ingrained in your mind, and no amount of social constructs can change what your mind believes. I think the social construct part of it is whether or not people choose to embrace it and come out as such.

To clarify, do you also believe the gender ingrained upon the child's mind always matches up with their anatomical sex?

 

[Gorrath]

And you know what? Take a fucking freshman sociology class, any dumbass college kid will tell you that gender is socially constructed and it doesn't have anything to do with biological sex. So don't give me any more of that "gender that matches their sex" idiocy. Clearly you were never a feminist of any description, I don't know any who would put up with that bullshit.

Let's be clear here. Gender roles are often socially constructed with some having their roots in biological and sociological evolution. Gender itself is not merely a social construct, but societies play a big role in how people define their gender. There is a complex interplay between society, gender, sex, biology and evolution.

Any first year physics student can tell you what a proton is in a second. A physics student finishing up their graduate degree will tell you what a proton is in fifty pages, with a bunch of hedging along the way. A tenured physics professor will need to have a cup of coffee, take a look out the window for a while and tell you what current theory says but note that we need to wait until the next round of data comes out of France before he can give you an answer. So yeah, any dumbass freshman college kid sure can say that gender is nothing but a social construct, but that sure as shit doesn't indicate they have a comprehensive understanding of what the hell they're talking about.

 

[Genocidicles]

Honestly I think SJWs are just backfiring. Seeing what they have to say has just made me more bigoted. Hell, I voted for UKIP in the European elections simply because it would piss off these kind of people... and it did, and they're cries of "IT'S GONNA END UP LIKE NAZI GERMANY !!!!1" were the icing on the cake.

If they dismiss my opinion purely because I'm a normal white male, then I'm just going to dismiss they're opinion because they're not.