Red Cross Investigating Virtual War Crimes

Feb 28, 2008
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Does this apply retrospectively, to games taking place before these codes and principles were founded?

Should my Cossacks in AOE III adhere to the Geneva Conventions even though they're created before the codes? I'm pretty sure everytime I play Civ IV I break about a dozen rules and regulations, specifically nuking Genghis Khan. But then I'm playing before 1864 AD... although my technological level is Modern... I ... harmony breaking... down.
 

Scrustle

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Apr 30, 2011
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...What? Seriously? They do realise no-one actually gets hurt in a game right? It's a game...
 

Kezboard

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Jan 7, 2011
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This is obviously internet-printers being internet-printers, but it did get me thinking: With the current generation of recruits being raised on FPSs, shouldn't game developers at least acknowledge that there are certain rules about what you simply can't do to the enemy?
Something like the women's bathroom in Deus Ex: Shoot surrendering soldiers and you get chewed out for it by your superiors.
 

Something Amyss

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Dec 3, 2008
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Kezboard said:
This is obviously internet-printers being internet-printers, but it did get me thinking: With the current generation of recruits being raised on FPSs, shouldn't game developers at least acknowledge that there are certain rules about what you simply can't do to the enemy?
Something like the women's bathroom in Deus Ex: Shoot surrendering soldiers and you get chewed out for it by your superiors.
People would complain that it ruined their immersion.
 

Cousin_IT

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Feb 6, 2008
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So a small panel at at convention decided to talk about how what the convention is about is being conveyed through the medium of videogames, found it to be somewhat lacking & wondered what to do about it. MAN THE BARRICADES!!!!

There's some real insecurity ITT.
 

Kenjitsuka

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Sep 10, 2009
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"how so many games depicting warfare don't actually uphold the rules of engagement which govern behavior in modern war"

In reality, those rules are NOT upheld in ANY warzone.
It's just lies on paper. There's many individual soldiers in every recent conflict (mind, there have been about 40-50 wars going on globally at every moment SINCE WW II!!!) who LOL at Geneva and it's conventioning.!
 

Adam Jensen_v1legacy

I never asked for this
Sep 8, 2011
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What a bunch of pathetic morons. They just want to take the fun out of everything. Go spend your time and money on things that mater you useless cunts.
 

XT inc

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Jul 29, 2009
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I think these laws are all bypassed by

A) The lack of civilians in war games at all. Unless they are fodder to cause "shocking" moments. Although it might be interesting to have npc civi bots running around in matches that you aren't allowed to shoot without punishment later on.

B) There are no medics, or wounded. People just die flat out. Or if they are wounded they go into whatever rehash of second chance there is and need to be killed or they will shot you.

But,

The Major disconnect is there is ZERO attachment to your character in a game, they go away, they die and come back, there are no consequences at all for anything you do, good or evil, so what is the point.

We play the games as if we are piloting an infinite supply of drones that have no value at all.(unless it is one of those one life modes, and then you think just a smidge more carefully) Mind you there is still the notion of expending that life for a tactical situation to win the round. I.e Using explosives in a way that will get you killed.( Like in the recent miracle of sound video where you see the guy with the C4 bombing tanks while he is standing right next to it)

Point is you can't punish minutemen for war crimes as they die and get replaced so fast.
 

IndianaJonny

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Jan 6, 2011
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Greg Tito said:
The Geneva Conventions have no jurisdiction over our imaginations or creative works, and The Red Cross cannot dictate whether a movie hero tortures a non-combatant or blows up a bus full of nuns on the way to saving the President of the U.N.
Soviet Heavy said:
What about movies? Or books? I thought the point of a fictional engagement or conflict was that it was FICTIONAL.
Firia said:
What about "virtual world" (their words) do they not get? It's fiction. Fake. Not real. The same can be said about books, and movies. There's some sick shit in sequenced letters and words. Not to mention in arts and crafts. But video games are somehow more real than these mediums?

Disappointed.
C'mon guys, that's some pretty lazy and cheeky criticism. The IFRCs problem isn't that it's fictional, their issue is that it's participatory. The 2007 TRIAL report expressed concern at FPS players becoming "virtually violent", not that the games were nasty make-believe.

Now this news can either be a good thing or bad thing for the gaming industry depending on how we respond and the results may suprise us. If 'Courageous Restraint' was included in a few games we may begin to better understand the stresses and frustrations of real front-line troops. Sure, 'escapism' might take a hit, but taking the source material more seriously might open new avenues and ideas for games to explore. Maybe we should wait till we know more about the initative before painting up the protest banners?
 

Therumancer

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Nov 28, 2007
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It's like this, I think the Red Cross is trying to hold out until the last second on board a sinking ship. While this goes much deeper than the intent of this article reality is like this:

In a REAL war, the biggest bastards win. There are no good guys, or bad guys, only a winner and a loser. If your considering morality in any way, shape, or form, then it's not a real war. If one side is playing by rules of engagement and the other isn't they had best be sure to have them outgunned to a massive degree or they are going to lose... period. It's been so long since powerful nations like the US have been in a real war that we've lost sight of this for a long time, but I think we're starting to regain our understanding of this through both the media (like video games) and observation of world events. Video games showing what a real war is like if your going to win through the brutality involved are basically under criticism for putting reality before political principle.

This was covered in the book "Starship Troopers" and at the very beginning of the movie version to some extent. Personally I prefer to use my own examples in pointing fingers towards Chivalry and Bushido both of which were codes of military conduct and honorable battle. They were great until in the case of Chivalry the side that should have lost decided they didn't want to lose and be conquered and decided to massacre the opposing force with long bows when they took the "field of honor". The Samurai aristocracy got taken down by revolting peasants, in part due to their codes of engagement. A lot of early Japanese martial arts could be summarized as "how to fight dirty against a guy with a sword using modified farm tools".

Right now the world is heading towards one big doozy of a war, indeed if the world ends on 12/21/12 it will probably be due to a war. This was is over economics and trade, not quite the massive battle against an evil empire people like to think of when it comes to war. To put it simply things are coming to a head with China, China has been running a robber economy where it has been violating patents from the first world to produce knockoff goods in sweatshops which it then resells for a fraction of the price. This has lead to China becoming a huge economic power. Rather than increasing the standard of living for it's people however it's been building up it's military and becoming increasingly belligerant. The US cut a deal with China to "borrow" money (to offset what it was losing in taxes) in exchange for not taking direct action hoping that the success in China would have filtered down and changed it's social order. Without going into more details, with the economic state of the US, the issue with it's credit score, and how this affects a lot of nations who have been being similarly screwed (even if a lot of the people there are cheering for the US taking a few lumps, the US isn't the only country losing quadrillions to parent and copyright violations) it's to the point where either China knocks it off and pays repairations, or the rest of the globe eventually collapses and China basically takes over. The thing is though that since China innovates very little (which is not to say nothing at all) that if it DOES knock it off it's going to wind up dropping itself back down into an entirely impoverished hellhole. We're at kind of an impasse, and China has been building up a substantial military to fight with.

I think a lot of people see this coming, some have been talking about the inevitability of an East Vs. West war for decades now as it's creeped closer and closer and the west decided to morally blindfold itself. I think The Red Cross, and various "peace at any price" movements are becoming increasingly freaked out over increasingly trivial things like games as a reaction to it. Especially seeing as anyone with half a brain knows this is going to be about who controls the world, and cultural/societal elimination, as opposed to these glorified police actions we've been calling wars after WW II ended.

Or in short, I think The Red Cross realizes it's moral relevence is slipping and is involved in a bit of QQing as the sad state of reality slips in, and we're seeing that to an extent in media like war games that have beein getting into a "this is how it is" including the brutality, torture, and collateral damage, as opposed to being presented in the antiseptic fashion of a 4-color comic book where the good guys manage to save the day while remaining untouched paragons of left wing virtue.
 

Formica Archonis

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Nov 13, 2009
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Are these the same guys that complain because of the red crosses on medical kits in games?

Because that makes me think that they're a bunch of humorless killjoys.

Interesting thought: If killing virtual soldiers is a violation of the Geneva Conventions, would making a mod containing an object that spawns soldiers until it's destroyed make me responsible for creating life? Because if so I'd better drop off the radar for a bit: I've got about six hundred thousand kids. Including some vampires.
 

ph0b0s123

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Jul 7, 2010
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This actually make me angry. With all the war crimes happening in the real world right now and they are taking time away from dealing with that, to think about virtual worlds. As I said, actually makes me angry.
 

samsonguy920

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If the world was at a period of relative peace, I can see discussions coming up like this without any concerns, as it wouldn't be taken seriously and nothing would come up about it except maybe some developers coming up with some ideas for future games oriented around the idea.
But we are not at relative peace. Terrorism and civil unrest is rampant, even in the countries that are usually the most stable. Yet these people feel they need to examine virtual war? I think as of the time that this conference occurred, the legitimacy of the International Committee of the Red Cross is officially gone. There are more pressing issues going on than to be taking time to talk about something that doesn't affect the world in general.

Of course the legitimacy of the ICRC has always been on tenuous ground. If Nazi Germany had won World War 2, there would have been British, French, Russian, and American leaders being held on trial for war crimes. It isn't about who is right or wrong, it is about who wins.
 

Kodachi

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Jun 6, 2011
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Hooray! I guess this means I can never be killed as a medic in TF2 or I can press charges!
 

Major_Tom

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Jun 29, 2008
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Oh, no! That means no more hollow-points, just FMJ. Damn you, Red Cross!

Seriously though, they aren't doing a very good job in real life so their solution is to switch to video games?
 

Quaxar

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Sep 21, 2009
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And I work for these crazy guys...?

Well, not for them but technically speaking it's still a far away branch of the IRC.
 

'Record Stops.'

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Sep 6, 2010
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Big Brother is watching. Are you a good little brother? Then report all thought-crimes to the nearest Officer. Remember, Free-speak is outlawed, and a happy home is a home with a Big Brother. Big Brother loves you and you love him. It's all wonderful here, don't worry, just obey. This has been a message from your beloved Big Brother.