it doesn't always need to have a point I should say
so what am I talking about in this sticky web of gender/SJW topics? well it takes a bit of explaining so if you'll humour me once again
[i/]for the sake of the argument lets put "marketing" aside, while relevant overall its not to my point[/i]
[I/]in this debate[/I] we often come across "stipulations" in regards to what people think good "representation" is or what it should be "no tokenism!" "good characters!" "make it relevant!" "treat with the love and tender care of a grandmasters magnum opus!"
and these are all good things! stories that feature the different experiences different kind of people have are great
[I/]however[/I] how "relevant" a "thing" (gender/race/sexuality) is to a story can and should vary...sometimes it might not be a "thing" at all
[b/]I don't get your point[/b]
what I'm trying to say here is when the discussion comes up people tend to talk about it in terms of very ridged "criteria" of what is and isn't good...this to me feels like people are saying "Unless its 100% relevant we shouldn't have "other" type characters in our games"
almost as if we should "default" to the "default"
and I think we all know what the "default" is thought to be (rhythms with wraith right rail)
I'm not saying this IS what people are saying, its just the impression I get. Were so obsessed with the idea of getting it "right" we don't look at the bigger picture.
People ask "if they're just avatars why does it matter?" <-to me it matters, I can't speak for others though, but my point is I'm [b/]I'm being asked for justification[/b] if it doesn't mater then it doesn't matter, don't ask me why it matters to play as a female and I wont ask why it maters to play as a male
[b/]I STILL don-[/b]
ok I want to talk about the Movie Edge of Tomorrow
[b/]I didn't see it[/b]
its a somewhat underrated sci fi flick staring Emily blunt and Tom cruise. She's your fairly typical "strong woman" and hes your fairly typical "white male protagonist" she's...(heh) "Blunt" tough and no nonsense, he's charming, a little green and tries to get himself out of frontline duty...it backfires spectacularly....they fight Aliens
now were going to Gender flip Tom Cruise....I'm going to be cliché and go with...Jennifer Lawrence, she can act and she's likeable....an important trait of toms character
[b/]are we gender flipping Blunts character?[/b]
nope
[b/]oh! lesbians!?[/b]
well much to my annoyance there was only one quick kiss between them in the film...but no, no outright lesbian implications
[b/]awwww
[/b]
I know but for the sake of this no lesbians, you'll have to make do with subtext
[b/]I ALWAYS make do with subtext[/b]
aaaanyway
so we got a movie staring two women, both in high octane military fighting roles, they aren't romancing each other and there isn't some guy causing a triangle.
does this feel a bit odd?
[b/]....yeah...a little[/b]
and here's the thing...it shouldn't! there is no law saying that you can't have more than one woman in your thing, that you can't NOT have a romance, we immediately look for a "reason" but there isn't one
and yet for obvious reasons theres always the same archetypes at play
this is why gender-flipping is an interesting thought exercise, this is why "just write like you would a man and gender flip it" <-is simplistic yet important advice. By gender flipping what youre doing is saying "write a female character without any preconceptions of "women" both IRL and in fiction"
[b/]but developers/writers are terrified of creating female characters in case they get them "wrong" and garner criticism![/b]
and that brings me to something else "tokenism" much like the smurfette principle, you make one female character, you dust your hands and say "alright...I'm done"
tokenism doesn't just come from doing female characters "wrong" it comes from the fact that EVERYTHING rides on that one character, she can't be too feminine or butch or sissy or brave or mean or nice, she can play the role of the "team mum" the "killjoy" the "straight man" the "love interest" all at once
of coarse you never get her "right" not when she "carries the torch"....your damn right Lara Croft is going to be looked at with a magnifying glass and fine tooth comb...when she's one of the few PLAYABLE NON-OPTIONAL female characters in a AAA game were all going to hold our breath
you have more than one you can vary it...back to my example genderflipped tom cruise would have made a nice counter to Blunts more stone faces character
you know variation, the more women/whatever you have the more room you have to work with, you can make them flawed or dumb or mean or whatever. Thats why people love OITNB (yes its set in a woman's prison) there are ALL kinds of women in that show, not just one
[b/]so they have to now make their casts majority women?[/b]
no, nobody has to do anything
I'm saying we need to drop this idea the *cough*straight white male*cough* is the "default" and that any variation from that is automatically "inclusion for the sake of it" <-whatever the hell that is
it shouldn't be "weird" to have an all female ghost busters, it shouldn't be weird to have a gay main character who'd relationship with his boyfriend is about as relevant as any "kinda there" romance is a lot of works (I say boyfriend because we still seem squicked out by that)
I'm not saying we *have* to deviate from WSM I'm saying that any deviation is not always a "statement"
so what am I talking about in this sticky web of gender/SJW topics? well it takes a bit of explaining so if you'll humour me once again
[i/]for the sake of the argument lets put "marketing" aside, while relevant overall its not to my point[/i]
[I/]in this debate[/I] we often come across "stipulations" in regards to what people think good "representation" is or what it should be "no tokenism!" "good characters!" "make it relevant!" "treat with the love and tender care of a grandmasters magnum opus!"
and these are all good things! stories that feature the different experiences different kind of people have are great
[I/]however[/I] how "relevant" a "thing" (gender/race/sexuality) is to a story can and should vary...sometimes it might not be a "thing" at all
[b/]I don't get your point[/b]
what I'm trying to say here is when the discussion comes up people tend to talk about it in terms of very ridged "criteria" of what is and isn't good...this to me feels like people are saying "Unless its 100% relevant we shouldn't have "other" type characters in our games"
almost as if we should "default" to the "default"
and I think we all know what the "default" is thought to be (rhythms with wraith right rail)
I'm not saying this IS what people are saying, its just the impression I get. Were so obsessed with the idea of getting it "right" we don't look at the bigger picture.
People ask "if they're just avatars why does it matter?" <-to me it matters, I can't speak for others though, but my point is I'm [b/]I'm being asked for justification[/b] if it doesn't mater then it doesn't matter, don't ask me why it matters to play as a female and I wont ask why it maters to play as a male
[b/]I STILL don-[/b]
ok I want to talk about the Movie Edge of Tomorrow
[b/]I didn't see it[/b]
its a somewhat underrated sci fi flick staring Emily blunt and Tom cruise. She's your fairly typical "strong woman" and hes your fairly typical "white male protagonist" she's...(heh) "Blunt" tough and no nonsense, he's charming, a little green and tries to get himself out of frontline duty...it backfires spectacularly....they fight Aliens
now were going to Gender flip Tom Cruise....I'm going to be cliché and go with...Jennifer Lawrence, she can act and she's likeable....an important trait of toms character
[b/]are we gender flipping Blunts character?[/b]
nope
[b/]oh! lesbians!?[/b]
well much to my annoyance there was only one quick kiss between them in the film...but no, no outright lesbian implications
[b/]awwww
[/b]I know but for the sake of this no lesbians, you'll have to make do with subtext
[b/]I ALWAYS make do with subtext
[/b]aaaanyway
so we got a movie staring two women, both in high octane military fighting roles, they aren't romancing each other and there isn't some guy causing a triangle.
does this feel a bit odd?
[b/]....yeah...a little[/b]
and here's the thing...it shouldn't! there is no law saying that you can't have more than one woman in your thing, that you can't NOT have a romance, we immediately look for a "reason" but there isn't one
and yet for obvious reasons theres always the same archetypes at play
this is why gender-flipping is an interesting thought exercise, this is why "just write like you would a man and gender flip it" <-is simplistic yet important advice. By gender flipping what youre doing is saying "write a female character without any preconceptions of "women" both IRL and in fiction"
[b/]but developers/writers are terrified of creating female characters in case they get them "wrong" and garner criticism![/b]
and that brings me to something else "tokenism" much like the smurfette principle, you make one female character, you dust your hands and say "alright...I'm done"
tokenism doesn't just come from doing female characters "wrong" it comes from the fact that EVERYTHING rides on that one character, she can't be too feminine or butch or sissy or brave or mean or nice, she can play the role of the "team mum" the "killjoy" the "straight man" the "love interest" all at once
of coarse you never get her "right" not when she "carries the torch"....your damn right Lara Croft is going to be looked at with a magnifying glass and fine tooth comb...when she's one of the few PLAYABLE NON-OPTIONAL female characters in a AAA game were all going to hold our breath
you have more than one you can vary it...back to my example genderflipped tom cruise would have made a nice counter to Blunts more stone faces character
you know variation, the more women/whatever you have the more room you have to work with, you can make them flawed or dumb or mean or whatever. Thats why people love OITNB (yes its set in a woman's prison) there are ALL kinds of women in that show, not just one
[b/]so they have to now make their casts majority women?[/b]
no, nobody has to do anything
I'm saying we need to drop this idea the *cough*straight white male*cough* is the "default" and that any variation from that is automatically "inclusion for the sake of it" <-whatever the hell that is
it shouldn't be "weird" to have an all female ghost busters, it shouldn't be weird to have a gay main character who'd relationship with his boyfriend is about as relevant as any "kinda there" romance is a lot of works (I say boyfriend because we still seem squicked out by that)
I'm not saying we *have* to deviate from WSM I'm saying that any deviation is not always a "statement"
