Resident Evil Creator: JRPGs Never Popular In the West
- Thread starter John Funk
- Start date
The problem isn't that JRPG's don't evolve, but that people don't want them to evolve.
FF12 was a very different type of JRPG and so was Vakyria Chronicles, but the JRPG fanbase doesn't seem to want this.
FF12 was a very different type of JRPG and so was Vakyria Chronicles, but the JRPG fanbase doesn't seem to want this.
Yesterday. The two clerks behind the counter were talking about how awesome Sentinels of the Starry Skies was going to be. Incidentally, that's also the day I went to preorder it.John Funk said:
Pretty much this. Each genre has something that sets it apart. I don't care if someone thinks WRPGs are the best thing ever I want those mechanics to stay out of my Tales of and Shin Megami Tensei games.Korten12 said:
Also, lol at everyone that lumps all JRPGs in with Final Fantasy stereotypes. Go play Persona or Sakura Wars and realize how wrong you are.
You know, my friends and I grew up on games like Dragon Quest, Final Fantasy, Chrono Trigger... claiming JRPGs were never big in the West is pretty damn outrightly a lie. And if lying makes this guy feel better since tastes are shifting heavily? Well, cool for him, I guess. Whatever helps him sleep better at night.
Played both 1 and 2 NISAmerica gets alot of business from me. I like the Mana Khemia series but I think my favorite JRPG's are the Ar Tonelico Series and Persona series and Atelier Iris. I wish people would quit telling JRPG Makers to make western RPG's. I mean seriously I played fallout 3 and Oblivion and I was dissapointed with both. They did not focus on the story enough for me. I want an engaging story where I can actually care about the characters. You call it Linear I call it telling the story the way the designer thought it needed to be told. So JRPG makers like GUST and NIS and all the others keep bringing us the games we love and don't listen to the people who say you should make them more western. If I want a western RPG I will buy a western RPG.blakfayt said:
EDIT: But I can totally understand that I am not in the majority and I can see what this guy is saying.
I believe that s69-5 often points out that Demon's Souls is in fact a JRPG. I haven't actually played the game (and maybe won't ever, as I don't have a PS3 and my retirement from gaming is looking more and more imminent), but it doesn't take a long look at it to realize it's not what the typical detractor of the genre would call a JRPG. People should by now that when you generalize about anything, you are just being ignorant. This is coming from a guy who has never touched a Final Fantasy game and is a loyal fan of Bioware.
Alright I have to say this much, the original FF games 1 through 6 were all excellent games, in fact I've had many good experiences on the DS or PC with similar new games. Because I believe the JRPG formula was best designed for this low tech sprite based structure. But innovation definitely stopped there and all we have been given is more polish, and all that means to me is more loading, more waiting around, basically a whole lot LESS game play.
Now here's my example of why I'm genuinely upset about this. This very day I decided to start playing Final Fantasy XIII, and as many of you may have I came into it with soaring expectations. But this is what really happened, I began playing this turd at about 10 am this morning, and I swear to you I passed out roughly 10 times over the next 2 hours. Passed out after a healthy breakfast and all, due to nothing but severe boredom. In all honesty how can it take so long to craft a so called game when your goal is to do absolutely NOTHING! Open up with some soft music, introduce me to characters (most of which I care nothing about), and then we have a bloody auto battle. Then I suffer through a cut scene of which I care nothing about because I've been on bloody autopilot since I started. Oh I also forgot to add wake from my slumber... If there's only one respective section of your game which can genuinely be considered a game then why wouldn't you make it in the slightest bit engaging?
Now here's my example of why I'm genuinely upset about this. This very day I decided to start playing Final Fantasy XIII, and as many of you may have I came into it with soaring expectations. But this is what really happened, I began playing this turd at about 10 am this morning, and I swear to you I passed out roughly 10 times over the next 2 hours. Passed out after a healthy breakfast and all, due to nothing but severe boredom. In all honesty how can it take so long to craft a so called game when your goal is to do absolutely NOTHING! Open up with some soft music, introduce me to characters (most of which I care nothing about), and then we have a bloody auto battle. Then I suffer through a cut scene of which I care nothing about because I've been on bloody autopilot since I started. Oh I also forgot to add wake from my slumber... If there's only one respective section of your game which can genuinely be considered a game then why wouldn't you make it in the slightest bit engaging?
I think hes mistaking lack of popularity for how big the ocean is. JRPGs weren't as big in America because they arn't in out backyard. And when the games industry was still growing, that was a bit of a problem. As a result, we only really got the big name stuff, like FF, which was, in fact, very popular. I think that now, the stagnation of the JRPG has led to Americans only sticking with series that have already gained brand loyalty. I'm not sure it has gotten less popular, but while the games industry is expanding its base, JRPGs don't really have anything to offer new people.
I hope this doesn't mean they're going to stop trying to sell us that genre here in the west. After all, I'm a "Tales of" and "Star Ocean" fanboy, among others.John Funk said:Resident Evil Creator: JRPGs Never Popular In the West
However, Resident Evil creator Shinji Mikami has a different outlook on the matter. Speaking with CVG [http://www.computerandvideogames.com/article.php?id=250381], Mikami said that he believed that aside from a handful of exceptions, Japanese RPGs hadn't ever been big over in the West in the first place. "I think it is because Japanese RPGs were really never all that popular in the west to begin with," said Mikami. "I think the best way of interpreting things is that they aren't getting less popular; they weren't very popular from the start."
Even if we do have fond memories of games like Chrono Trigger and Xenogears, the guy might have a point. The West adores Final Fantasy, but that series does seem to be an exception rather than the rule: When was the last time you heard anybody in GameStop talking about the new Dragon Quest?
Permalink
Besides, about that hole "same thing thing with different dressing" thing, couldn't the same be said of the FPS?
It's probably already been pointed out but has he looked at JRPG sales figures? I bet if other JRPGs were just as hyped as FF they'd do better.
Now, what I'd like to see is a W-JRPG in the sense you have elements of both such as a world map, towns/dungeons and turn based combat with linear progression but at the same time plenty of side quests, character customization and choices that can change the plot.
Now, what I'd like to see is a W-JRPG in the sense you have elements of both such as a world map, towns/dungeons and turn based combat with linear progression but at the same time plenty of side quests, character customization and choices that can change the plot.
A lot of contridictory information here, it seems like a lot of people who are not JRPG fans are parroting what a lot of other people say about them.
I think the problem is mostly that we don't see many JRPGs released in the US, and those that are released tend to be released under the radar with little, if any fanfare at all. "Final Fantasy VII" is what catapulted the series into the fame it has in the West (though it WAS around before that), but consider that this was done through a MASSIVE marketing campaign. You had guys at Gamestops basically giving away T-shirts, posters, and everything else to attract interest. It also had a TV commercial, which to be honest is fairly uncommon for JRPG series even now.
What JRPGs that *DO* come to the US underground are facing a losing battle, things like the "Shin Megami Tensei" games are a rare, successful, exception that managed to crawl out of obscurity due to a devoted cult following that grew slowly over a number of years.
Ultimatly I think that the general JRPG formula works well, there is no reason to change it simply to be differant. However people who say that the genere has not innovated has not been paying attention... though admittedly due to bad marketing you REALLY have to pay attention to notice. We've seen everything from typical menu driven combat, to tactical grid systems, to pseudo-real time systems, to ones that determine action via reflexive inputs (like Shadow Hearts, or Legend Of Dragoon). There have also been complicated sub-systems involved which can range from setting teammate AI, to customizing vehicles and mecha (Metal Saga, and MS Saga both do this well, being similar in some respects to Xenogears, but are virtually unknown).
The wierd thing is that while people complain about lack of evolution, just about every JRPG has some new gimmick, and tweaks, although the focus DOES stay entirely on stat management, leveling, etc... as opposed to becoming an action game (though there are Action-JRPGs like Devil Summoner now as well). What's more, despite some media bias, you will noticed that periodicals DO compare systems. For example the unfavorable comparison Xenosaga 2 received compared to Xenosaga 1.
What is "hurting" JRPGs are as follows:
#1: Gaming has become more mainstream, and that mainstream is mostly represented by a younger demographic. That and allowing for the masses of humanity who can deal with affordable "plug and play", means that there is more desire for flashy, active, very shallow action games that nearly anyone can enjoy in spurts with a minimal time investment.
JRPGs are a cereberal exercise, requiring someone that can take pleasure in strategies and tweaking numbers. They being similar to the paper and pencil RPGs which spawned them, which were specifically developed to be contrary to other forms of "make believe" with kids running around playing Cowboys and Indians or whatever (which is what action games are more akin to).
As the gaming crowd grows older and slows down, I suspect we'll see more favor towards RPGs again, but right now the fact remains that RPGs are a niche market, and will remain that way until the ages actually even out a bit more accross the spectrum.
Right now, it's very true that your going to be hitting a bigger audience by developing an action title.
#2: Akin to point #1, I think part of the problem is ironically that a lot of JRPGs go over the heads of the "twitch" generations. They require you not only to spend a lot of time, and manage stats, but oftentimes to pay attention.
One odd thing you'll notice is that those who dislike JRPGs will rotate between claiming they have NO plot, or an involuted plot that doesn't make sense. The problem of course being that your supposed to be mentally invested and paying attention. Oddly details oftentimes come from little, inconsequential seeming side characters, or as a result of the dialogue, texts you find, and exposition.
It's kind of amusing when someone will say a "stereotypical plot that makes no sense". Part of the point is that in a lot of JRPGs it starts out as fairly typical high-fantasy cliques and then gets away from that as things progress. How did you get from fighting rats, goblins, and orcs to duelling your father in the center of the moon for the fate of reality, before being confronted by the spirit of the ruler of a long dead empire? Well... for that you need to pay attention.
In general opinion tends to be divided while there are horrible JRPG stories (like any genere) you'll notice that with your typical game you'll have one group of people going "wow, that was awesome", and the other group taking about derivitive junk and how nothing made sense... depending on how much attention they were paying.
I will admit though that the storytelling techniques can leave something to be desired, though there are usually few better ways to do them. For some things to work, you need to establish a lot of basics. The transformation between a normal sword and sorcery tale, and how things wind up developing can't be established, unless you spend a lot of time building the foundation of the normal stuff first for the rest of it to stick out in comparison. This is why with a number of JRPGs people are expected to be willing to put a lot of time into it, and some people will say "well it doesn't get good until like 12 hours in" or whatever.
I guess it's like reading a long book where you need to deal with 100 pages of setting the stage before the 200 pages of the cool stuff that happens as a result. Tastes in literature vary, some people feel things need to move along at a clip all along, others appreciate atmosphere and are willing to endure a "potboiler" so to speak.
#3: Finally, and most importantly, I will say that I think racism plays into this. While it has been years, at one point I was pretty into reading translated Japanese periodicals (and had multiple sources who were able to vouch for the accuracy of translations). While no where near on the level of a KKK rally, to put it bluntly a lot of the Japanese public believes that releasing games and fiction outside of Japan somehow cheapens them. Something being "Japan only" can actually be a selling point, especially if it's something they feel the rest of the world wants, but can't have. For all the nice fans in Japan, there are plenty who cruelly feed on the tears of their American counterparts.
Also, while many people will talk about how money is all that is important, a lot of people tend not to realize that this isn't how it is for everyone. There are Japanese creators who would rather limit their audience for nationalistic/cultural reasons, rather than make more money in an international marketplace.
In general, "liscensing" is an issue that comes up with why a lot of Japanese games are not brought to the US. While the usual claim is that it would cost too much, that's generally BS because introducing the liscense to the US market holds nothing but the potential for gain. If the game was viable in JApan, it's viable for an international release. HOWEVER, this does not mean that the liscence holders want their work released outside of Japan, wanting to keep it for the intended audience, or in some (somewhat more legitimate cases) not wanting to risk the changes that might be involved. I remember reading stuff about how some Japanese creators have gotten royally irked at how their material was changed, and how with the proliferation caused by an American release that changed version (oftentimes stupid) was what the world got to see. Like it or not science fiction and fantasy writers are artists.
-
Consider also that by the time certain things are released to the US because Japan is "done with them" they tend to be antiquidated. We get games two or three years after their initial release at times. Some games like "Dragon Quest" haven't made a huge splash since the "Dragon Warrior" days, largely because we rarely see them. It seems to me that Dragon Quest 8 was the only one we saw in a timely manner, and compared to other franchise launches it arrived with very little fanfare or pre-amble. There was no "Final Fantasy VII" months long gala to draw people in.
Why is Dragon Quest not succeeding more? Well consider that what we got of most of these games were DS ports of long-term RPGs designed for dozens of hours to be spent on them. Very difficult RPGs, with unforgiving save systems and such. Take that game, put it on a tiny screen, and understand that this is not something you can really take with you and play in chunks... so to play it you pretty much need to plug in you "portable" and then sit there in your home with that tiny screen for dozens of hours to really play the game. Honestly it takes a really special kind of nerd to endure that, heck the "instruction manual" for Dragon Quest "Hand Of The Heavenly Bride" (such as it is) is pretty much nothing but a pamphlet telling you this.
The fact that these games are selling as well as they are (we see more and more of them) should be a sign of the potential market... because honestly there are a lot of JRPG players who would be interested (even with the old school save system) if it wasn't for the whole masochistic portable bit.
At any rate, apologies for the essay, these are my thoughts. Wondering if maybe I should put this in a text file to cut and paste when JRPG discussions come back around again.
In short, I more or less disagree with the article, there are plenty of western JRPG fans (I like both JRPGs and WRPGs...preferring WRPGs despite how this might sound in places). I think it's a solid and profitable market, but much smaller than pure action titles. I also think the relative failure of JRPGs comes down to things like attitude, and bad marketing.
I think the problem is mostly that we don't see many JRPGs released in the US, and those that are released tend to be released under the radar with little, if any fanfare at all. "Final Fantasy VII" is what catapulted the series into the fame it has in the West (though it WAS around before that), but consider that this was done through a MASSIVE marketing campaign. You had guys at Gamestops basically giving away T-shirts, posters, and everything else to attract interest. It also had a TV commercial, which to be honest is fairly uncommon for JRPG series even now.
What JRPGs that *DO* come to the US underground are facing a losing battle, things like the "Shin Megami Tensei" games are a rare, successful, exception that managed to crawl out of obscurity due to a devoted cult following that grew slowly over a number of years.
Ultimatly I think that the general JRPG formula works well, there is no reason to change it simply to be differant. However people who say that the genere has not innovated has not been paying attention... though admittedly due to bad marketing you REALLY have to pay attention to notice. We've seen everything from typical menu driven combat, to tactical grid systems, to pseudo-real time systems, to ones that determine action via reflexive inputs (like Shadow Hearts, or Legend Of Dragoon). There have also been complicated sub-systems involved which can range from setting teammate AI, to customizing vehicles and mecha (Metal Saga, and MS Saga both do this well, being similar in some respects to Xenogears, but are virtually unknown).
The wierd thing is that while people complain about lack of evolution, just about every JRPG has some new gimmick, and tweaks, although the focus DOES stay entirely on stat management, leveling, etc... as opposed to becoming an action game (though there are Action-JRPGs like Devil Summoner now as well). What's more, despite some media bias, you will noticed that periodicals DO compare systems. For example the unfavorable comparison Xenosaga 2 received compared to Xenosaga 1.
What is "hurting" JRPGs are as follows:
#1: Gaming has become more mainstream, and that mainstream is mostly represented by a younger demographic. That and allowing for the masses of humanity who can deal with affordable "plug and play", means that there is more desire for flashy, active, very shallow action games that nearly anyone can enjoy in spurts with a minimal time investment.
JRPGs are a cereberal exercise, requiring someone that can take pleasure in strategies and tweaking numbers. They being similar to the paper and pencil RPGs which spawned them, which were specifically developed to be contrary to other forms of "make believe" with kids running around playing Cowboys and Indians or whatever (which is what action games are more akin to).
As the gaming crowd grows older and slows down, I suspect we'll see more favor towards RPGs again, but right now the fact remains that RPGs are a niche market, and will remain that way until the ages actually even out a bit more accross the spectrum.
Right now, it's very true that your going to be hitting a bigger audience by developing an action title.
#2: Akin to point #1, I think part of the problem is ironically that a lot of JRPGs go over the heads of the "twitch" generations. They require you not only to spend a lot of time, and manage stats, but oftentimes to pay attention.
One odd thing you'll notice is that those who dislike JRPGs will rotate between claiming they have NO plot, or an involuted plot that doesn't make sense. The problem of course being that your supposed to be mentally invested and paying attention. Oddly details oftentimes come from little, inconsequential seeming side characters, or as a result of the dialogue, texts you find, and exposition.
It's kind of amusing when someone will say a "stereotypical plot that makes no sense". Part of the point is that in a lot of JRPGs it starts out as fairly typical high-fantasy cliques and then gets away from that as things progress. How did you get from fighting rats, goblins, and orcs to duelling your father in the center of the moon for the fate of reality, before being confronted by the spirit of the ruler of a long dead empire? Well... for that you need to pay attention.
In general opinion tends to be divided while there are horrible JRPG stories (like any genere) you'll notice that with your typical game you'll have one group of people going "wow, that was awesome", and the other group taking about derivitive junk and how nothing made sense... depending on how much attention they were paying.
I will admit though that the storytelling techniques can leave something to be desired, though there are usually few better ways to do them. For some things to work, you need to establish a lot of basics. The transformation between a normal sword and sorcery tale, and how things wind up developing can't be established, unless you spend a lot of time building the foundation of the normal stuff first for the rest of it to stick out in comparison. This is why with a number of JRPGs people are expected to be willing to put a lot of time into it, and some people will say "well it doesn't get good until like 12 hours in" or whatever.
I guess it's like reading a long book where you need to deal with 100 pages of setting the stage before the 200 pages of the cool stuff that happens as a result. Tastes in literature vary, some people feel things need to move along at a clip all along, others appreciate atmosphere and are willing to endure a "potboiler" so to speak.
#3: Finally, and most importantly, I will say that I think racism plays into this. While it has been years, at one point I was pretty into reading translated Japanese periodicals (and had multiple sources who were able to vouch for the accuracy of translations). While no where near on the level of a KKK rally, to put it bluntly a lot of the Japanese public believes that releasing games and fiction outside of Japan somehow cheapens them. Something being "Japan only" can actually be a selling point, especially if it's something they feel the rest of the world wants, but can't have. For all the nice fans in Japan, there are plenty who cruelly feed on the tears of their American counterparts.
Also, while many people will talk about how money is all that is important, a lot of people tend not to realize that this isn't how it is for everyone. There are Japanese creators who would rather limit their audience for nationalistic/cultural reasons, rather than make more money in an international marketplace.
In general, "liscensing" is an issue that comes up with why a lot of Japanese games are not brought to the US. While the usual claim is that it would cost too much, that's generally BS because introducing the liscense to the US market holds nothing but the potential for gain. If the game was viable in JApan, it's viable for an international release. HOWEVER, this does not mean that the liscence holders want their work released outside of Japan, wanting to keep it for the intended audience, or in some (somewhat more legitimate cases) not wanting to risk the changes that might be involved. I remember reading stuff about how some Japanese creators have gotten royally irked at how their material was changed, and how with the proliferation caused by an American release that changed version (oftentimes stupid) was what the world got to see. Like it or not science fiction and fantasy writers are artists.
-
Consider also that by the time certain things are released to the US because Japan is "done with them" they tend to be antiquidated. We get games two or three years after their initial release at times. Some games like "Dragon Quest" haven't made a huge splash since the "Dragon Warrior" days, largely because we rarely see them. It seems to me that Dragon Quest 8 was the only one we saw in a timely manner, and compared to other franchise launches it arrived with very little fanfare or pre-amble. There was no "Final Fantasy VII" months long gala to draw people in.
Why is Dragon Quest not succeeding more? Well consider that what we got of most of these games were DS ports of long-term RPGs designed for dozens of hours to be spent on them. Very difficult RPGs, with unforgiving save systems and such. Take that game, put it on a tiny screen, and understand that this is not something you can really take with you and play in chunks... so to play it you pretty much need to plug in you "portable" and then sit there in your home with that tiny screen for dozens of hours to really play the game. Honestly it takes a really special kind of nerd to endure that, heck the "instruction manual" for Dragon Quest "Hand Of The Heavenly Bride" (such as it is) is pretty much nothing but a pamphlet telling you this.
The fact that these games are selling as well as they are (we see more and more of them) should be a sign of the potential market... because honestly there are a lot of JRPG players who would be interested (even with the old school save system) if it wasn't for the whole masochistic portable bit.
At any rate, apologies for the essay, these are my thoughts. Wondering if maybe I should put this in a text file to cut and paste when JRPG discussions come back around again.
In short, I more or less disagree with the article, there are plenty of western JRPG fans (I like both JRPGs and WRPGs...preferring WRPGs despite how this might sound in places). I think it's a solid and profitable market, but much smaller than pure action titles. I also think the relative failure of JRPGs comes down to things like attitude, and bad marketing.
We have GameStop in the Uk?! I went to one in Ireland, but I thought all we had was GameStation and GAME.Jack and Calumon said:
My immediate response to this statement was "Well, everybody loves Pokémon". That's an RPG, right? Where did it come from - Japan, wasn't it? Fair enough it isn't a 'standard' RPG, but no-one makes them anymore. RPG has been divided and assimilated into all the other genres.
To those talking about Lack of Evolution..
The formula HAS evolved. Just not in the most popular series...You can't point at a few popular games and say the entire genre is stagnant.
The formula HAS evolved. Just not in the most popular series...You can't point at a few popular games and say the entire genre is stagnant.
I tend to think the discussion is symptomatic of the gulf between eastern and western gaming culture. Folks are into different things. You can compare over other genres too, Bayonetta/DMC vs. God Of War. As far as I can tell Japan doesn't produce a lot of sports games, but seems to make the lion's share of 2d fighters. There's plenty of space in the marketplace for everyone's tastes to be represented. If games fall along cultural or aesthetic lines, that's fine - everything from games to movies to food and music do too. There's a sushi bar near my McDonalds. Super Awesome Dragon Girl 13 can sit on the shelf next to Mass Effect 3.
Shinji Mikami considers JRPGs not popular in the West?
I guess when the day that Final Fantasy VII came out, people were screaming of the awesomeness of Full Motion Video. Not only that, it brought out Anime to the West.
And guess what? The West likes JRPGs despite the several types of cliches that JRPGs carry. But so far, only Final Fantasy stands out from the rest of JRPGs.
I was done with Final Fantasy XIII for being so ram rod straight linear, the story having to make no sense and forcing you to read massive amounts of text just to make sense.
I did have fond memories when I played Final Fantasy VI, Chrono Trigger and even Earthbound but they didn't do much success in comparison to Final Fantasy VII.
As of the Dragon Quest game, I prefer VIII.
I guess when the day that Final Fantasy VII came out, people were screaming of the awesomeness of Full Motion Video. Not only that, it brought out Anime to the West.
And guess what? The West likes JRPGs despite the several types of cliches that JRPGs carry. But so far, only Final Fantasy stands out from the rest of JRPGs.
I was done with Final Fantasy XIII for being so ram rod straight linear, the story having to make no sense and forcing you to read massive amounts of text just to make sense.
I did have fond memories when I played Final Fantasy VI, Chrono Trigger and even Earthbound but they didn't do much success in comparison to Final Fantasy VII.
As of the Dragon Quest game, I prefer VIII.
Well my view is that the genre has evolved away from involving the player much at all. FFXIII being the latest example, but the last JRPG I tried to choke down was Xenosaga and the GAME part of the game was pretty brilliantly executed. The cut scenes... not so much. Bordering on outright abusive. And from what I've heard and read the trend has only gotten worse.
Made it through the first chapter before getting fed up with it and just quitting.
For the record, I STILL play FFI (Fighter-Red Mage-Black Belt-Black belt, mook fights can get rough but bosses melt before my awesome fists! LOL)
Made it through the first chapter before getting fed up with it and just quitting.
For the record, I STILL play FFI (Fighter-Red Mage-Black Belt-Black belt, mook fights can get rough but bosses melt before my awesome fists! LOL)