Review claims that you never miss in Dragon Age...Uh mainstream media where are you?

[Kaanyr Vhok]

Basically instead of 'missing' you simply deal a very VERY small amount of damage. It might as well be zero for what it is.

You can turn the damage numbers on in the game, and you will see like, for example, 40 or 50... and then 1 and 2, and then 40 again. Those 1 and 2's are misses. They do not count for effects which require a 'hit' either. For example, rogues can get an ability that causes their crit chance to increase with more hits in a short period, but a miss will not increase this value.

Ok I see.

I'm still surprised that it took the rpgcodex to pick up on this.

This is just bad game design. If you want an action RPG where every attack that makes contact causes damage thats either real or resisted in some way then thats ok, but you have to do two things to make is more than a simple button masher. You have to have the enemy avoid, dodge, slip and move like the ninjas in Ninja Gaiden. Not that effective but effective enough to make you miss. Also the attack speed and accuracy for melee or a targeting reticle in a shooter should improve with your character.

Also people complaining about hitting/missing in games should really be forced to play a Combat Rogue in WoW and raid with it. Like really the boss I'm attacking is MASSIVE and I miss?

So what your saying is that you don't miss the giant dragon you just deal very low damage, which is just like missing only not as unrealistic. I see no problem.

I always hated the miss mechanic in any game it was in. it's like the game is saying "What you think you can hit a huge Dragon at point blank range? LOL think again *****"

It was the reason i stopped playing Morrowind after 3 hours

Just because something is large doesn't mean it is easy to hit. I've dogged a few mosquitoes in my life lol. There is also a reach and attack advantage that makes an Ogre or Dragon difficult to hit. The fear of a deadly counter forces you to shorten shots. Thats not to underestimate the quickness or speed of an muscular Ogre or Dragon. Yes being able to land at will against a large creature just because its large is highly unrealistic and when they make up for it with bloated hp its not very fun IMO and even less realistic.

 

[Zechnophobe]

They don't 'make up for it with bloated HP' though.

Sure some bosses are pretty healthy, (cough, ROCK WRAITH), but that is a few special cases, not a common issue with enemies. On any given fight you'll still do something like 95% of the damage from 'hits' instead of misses. And unless that 5% is what you would call bloated, then there's nothing there to complain about.

I think the real reason you haven't heard about this is that most people consider it a good change, and so therefore doesn't fit well into many rant threads .

 

[Rayne870]

Basically instead of 'missing' you simply deal a very VERY small amount of damage. It might as well be zero for what it is.

You can turn the damage numbers on in the game, and you will see like, for example, 40 or 50... and then 1 and 2, and then 40 again. Those 1 and 2's are misses. They do not count for effects which require a 'hit' either. For example, rogues can get an ability that causes their crit chance to increase with more hits in a short period, but a miss will not increase this value.

Ok I see.

I'm still surprised that it took the rpgcodex to pick up on this.

This is just bad game design. If you want an action RPG where every attack that makes contact causes damage thats either real or resisted in some way then thats ok, but you have to do two things to make is more than a simple button masher. You have to have the enemy avoid, dodge, slip and move like the ninjas in Ninja Gaiden. Not that effective but effective enough to make you miss. Also the attack speed and accuracy for melee or a targeting reticle in a shooter should improve with your character.

Also people complaining about hitting/missing in games should really be forced to play a Combat Rogue in WoW and raid with it. Like really the boss I'm attacking is MASSIVE and I miss?

So what your saying is that you don't miss the giant dragon you just deal very low damage, which is just like missing only not as unrealistic. I see no problem.

I always hated the miss mechanic in any game it was in. it's like the game is saying "What you think you can hit a huge Dragon at point blank range? LOL think again *****"

It was the reason i stopped playing Morrowind after 3 hours

Just because something is large doesn't mean it is easy to hit. I've dogged a few mosquitoes in my life lol. There is also a reach and attack advantage that makes an Ogre or Dragon difficult to hit. The fear of a deadly counter forces you to shorten shots. Thats not to underestimate the quickness or speed of an muscular Ogre or Dragon. Yes being able to land at will against a large creature just because its large is highly unrealistic and when they make up for it with bloated hp its not very fun IMO and even less realistic.

You dodged, the mosquito didn't roll a dice and miss

 

[Kaanyr Vhok]

They don't 'make up for it with bloated HP' though.

Sure some bosses are pretty healthy, (cough, ROCK WRAITH), but that is a few special cases, not a common issue with enemies. On any given fight you'll still do something like 95% of the damage from 'hits' instead of misses. And unless that 5% is what you would call bloated, then there's nothing there to complain about.

I think the real reason you haven't heard about this is that most people consider it a good change, and so therefore doesn't fit well into many rant threads .

You could see the bloated hp in the demo and in Origins. Its like the Ogres in the demo are made of steel.

Most people dont know what a real fight is. In a real fight most attacks are missed or blocked else its over quickly.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PDJyOTLAK4Y

Thats an example of realistic action combat. Looks pretty exiting too. Landing everything is just boring. Playing an action game where you cant miss is just boring. An RPG where you cant miss is even worse.

 

[AmrasCalmacil]

Isn't this your second '***** about dragon age 2' thread, OP?

Dear god. Did Bioware kill your children or something?

 

[drh1975]

You can't miss? Really? Funny, because I played the demo and couldn't hit water if I fell out of a boat.

 

[mireko]

Spoiler

Yup! In fact, one of the biggest tricks in this game is realizing that +atk% is computer very differently from +atk!

Let me explain, because I'm a math nerd. Hmm, this is a lot, hopefully it'll make sense.


First of all let's talk about Attack stat versus hit percentage. The attack stat converts into hit percentage on a curve. That is, getting bonus to the attack stat of +22 will not always give you +2% hit percentage, it depends on how much you already have. So increasing your attack too much yields less and less reward.

However, you'll notice that some effects in the game give "+10% attack". This is completely different. While you convert attack stat into %, this is applied afterwards, right on top. So if my 300 attack gives me 80% to hit chance, and I get a +10% effect, it goes straight up to 90%. It doesn't matter how high my hit percentage is before we apply the effect.

This means that combining the two types of effects is always the best. Some attack bonus' while they are still worth a lot, and then some % bonus' on top of that.

So what about bonus' to attack percentage from your attributes, like strength, magic or dexterity you ask?

I'm so happy to answer! These are applied just like the % bonus, they add an amount to your ATTACK stat that will exactly increase your % by 1. So if I am a fighter and get +1 Strength, I also get 1% to my hit chance.

As a note, defense works the exact same way, and so do resistances. So Isabela's static +25% defense from her specialization tree is incredibly effective. When I picked it up in my latest playthrough she went from like a 31% dodge chance, to a 56% dodge chance. A very very substantial reduction in the damage she takes (from normal opponents at least).

Similarly, Resistances from 'resist' stats (+189 fire resist) only help so much. Getting Elemental Aegis to throw on top, will often make the person immune to that element.

Cheers! (Sorry for the wordy post ).

Thanks, that was very informative. I must have somehow mistaken the "+x% Attack" stat for a bonus equal to x% of the main attack stat number somewhere along the way (that is, +10% Attack becoming 10 Attack if I have 100 on a character, rather than a +10% chance to hit). That could probably have been avoided if I'd just double-checked my stats when equipping something, but uh.. yeah.

[sub]I feel kind of bad about putting your post behind a spoiler tag, but I figured it was for the best.[/sub]

You could see the bloated hp in the demo and in Origins. Its like the Ogres in the demo are made of steel.

Most people dont know what a real fight is. In a real fight most attacks are missed or blocked else its over quickly.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PDJyOTLAK4Y

Thats an example of realistic action combat. Looks pretty exiting too. Landing everything is just boring. Playing an action game where you cant miss is just boring. An RPG where you cant miss is even worse.

You should play Demon's Souls if you want realistically intense RPG combat.

 

[Kaanyr Vhok]

Isn't this your second '***** about dragon age 2' thread, OP?

Dear god. Did Bioware kill your children or something?

I just think Dragon Age is a joke but I didnt know it was this bad.

 

[Kaanyr Vhok]

You should play Demon's Souls if you want realistically intense RPG combat.

I'm going to tell my kids to ask for a PS 3 for Christmas so I'll have an excuse to cop it. I like From software and any game that has a pvp boss is just bad ass.

 

[Korten12]

Isn't this your second '***** about dragon age 2' thread, OP?

Dear god. Did Bioware kill your children or something?

They were sooo young! jk. XD But yeah, their is many hate threads.

 

[mireko]

Anyone else noticed that with proper micro-management you can manually dodge enemy attacks? It works for pretty much all the basic enemies and many bosses. In DA:O blows would "hit" as long as the target was in range at the start of the swing, but in DA2 you can just kite people endlessly (arrows still home in though).

I did notice that. It's an interesting change, it makes rogues a lot more practical against tougher enemies.

Also very, very useful against the High Dragon.

 

[Canadamus Prime]

Sounds to me like the developers can't win for losing. ...as usual. ¬___¬

 

[Zechnophobe]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PDJyOTLAK4Y

Thats an example of realistic action combat. Looks pretty exiting too. Landing everything is just boring. Playing an action game where you cant miss is just boring. An RPG where you cant miss is even worse.

Just FYI, I believe you linked the wrong video. That 'realistic action combat' link goes to a video game, and a cut scene from one no less. I assume you meant to show a martial arts competition or something?

Afterall, it would be rather silly to use a work of fantasy as an example of realistic right? And even still, Neverwinter nights had people just standing next to each other, and then occasionally swinging a weapon without others responding to the blows, so you also couldn't have meant the game as an example either.

Lastly, You seem to have not actually played the game, only the Demo. I can understand not making a purchase based on it, but complaining about the full title or the design decisions that went into it, is as insultingly insipid as making a judgement about a movie based on the trailer.

 

[voetballeeuw]

Is this a legitimate complaint? You can't miss? OH MY GOD! THIS GAME IS A TRAVESTY AGAINST NATURE! KILL IT WITH FIRE!

I don't see why this is relevant. As others have posted, instead of missing, the characters will do 1-2 damage. This works fine. This is definitely not a major flaw. The game has some, but this is not one.

Finally, can we be done with all the DA2 threads? Crysis 2 is out now, I bet everyone can complain turning invisible.

 

[Kaanyr Vhok]

Just FYI, I believe you linked the wrong video. That 'realistic action combat' link goes to a video game, and a cut scene from one no less. I assume you meant to show a martial arts competition or something?

Afterall, it would be rather silly to use a work of fantasy as an example of realistic right? And even still, Neverwinter nights had people just standing next to each other, and then occasionally swinging a weapon without others responding to the blows, so you also couldn't have meant the game as an example either.

Lastly, You seem to have not actually played the game, only the Demo. I can understand not making a purchase based on it, but complaining about the full title or the design decisions that went into it, is as insultingly insipid as making a judgement about a movie based on the trailer.

Thats the right video. Its an example of what an action game could look like with lots of misses and less hp. To me that looks more fun and I dont feel that guilty in comparing it to real time gameplay when this is what Bioware could envision a decade ago. Besides its the graphics and fidelity of the animations I'm referring to.

There is nothing silly about using fantasy as an example of realism. Fantasy is traditionally based on reality. RPG stats generally attempt to simulate reality. Really you mean to tell me that the fight with the Minotaur doesnt come off as being far more believable than a fight against an Ogre in DA 2?

Considering that bloated hp and high hit rates are two of my pet peeves in RPGs I dont need to play a game to realize that I wouldnt like it. Using gameplay mechanics to justify or balance a 100% hit rate is regressive design. Its like building a city, welfare office first.

 

[Trolldor]

That cant be true. I did notice that I never missed in the demo but I dismissed it figuring that you were really high level during that scene.
Here is the review

http://rpgcodex.net/content.php?id=224

The obsolete ?to hit chance? mechanic is gone. In your grandpa's RPGs, unsuccessful attacks missed their target. In Dragon Age 2 they merely cause less damage (glancing blows). Your primary stat (one for each class; might as well make the system even more ?welcoming? and call it DAMAGE!!!) determines your base damage and your chance to do extra damage. Hovering your cursor over your attack rating displays a breakdown, for example 85% vs normal enemy, 70% vs enemy lieutenant, 55% vs enemy boss. What does it mean for you? A system where you always hit is an HP game, so you?ll be hitting the ?bosses? aka HP behemoths for a very, very long time.

Tell me this is not true.
I have read a few DA 2 reviews yet nothing in the mainstream media has mentioned it? I mean what the gfsalkfgjask;lf vdsa;lfdlafomdvfl;fmasl;k f, fasdmkfk;j
Huh?

So nobody had a problem with this? If this is true the game is an even bigger joke than I suspected from the demo.

Never mattered. Mechanically the game works fine and is well balanced for combat.

 

[Kaanyr Vhok]

Never mattered. Mechanically the game works fine and is well balanced for combat.

Equal pounds of shit on separate pans of a balance scale still stink. I doubt the game's balance because DA:O age was woefully unbalanced and the last review I posted spoke of the same concerns.

Forget that. I want to talk about why it stinks... Hitting a stationary target that cant move is just boring, predictable and when the hp bloats silly. Its just bad game design because its boring. Bioware should be doing much better. Hell the person who did the review helped create a better combat system with maybe a tenth of Bioware's budget.

I can understand why someone might not like stat based combat in a game like Morrowind. Morrowind just didnt have the animations and neither did Oblivion so its a damned do/dont situation unless the game has the miss animations if its stat based or AI that can make you miss in an action its going to lack something. Both games had neither in most respects so I would say they both had C- combat. Decent enough for an RPG though Skyrim better be better. Bioware should be further along than using hp alone to simulate attack roll and damage.

 

[DrBojangles]

Not sure what to make of this thread. People are actually saying always hitting is realistic?

No it isn't. Watch videos of swordfighting sometime, most of it is parrying/blocking/dodging. That's what the hit% is supposed to represent. If all swings connected there would never be more than 1 swing in an entire swordfight.

Having hit% also makes for logical special attacks with actual tradeoffs. Wanna do more damage? Blow is easier for the enemy to avoid. More realistic. More fun. Adds more variability to combat and makes you think about tradeoffs. Prevents the game from becoming an HP bar slog where you always just use your most powerful attacks.

I think what most of you are complaining about, if you stop to think, is that most of the recent games with hit% stats don't actually animate misses. The game just says 'miss', instead of the enemy actually blocking or dodging or parrying. And I agree that could be improved. But that's purely a cosmetic failing and not a reason to ditch hit%.