RPGs Should Ditch the Stats
- Thread starter Susan Arendt
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As a AD&D player, I quite like the idea of stats. How else are you supposed to measure character progression?
The goal is to have meaningful virtual interaction, and focusing on stats can sometimes interfere with this. That being said, stats provide an excellent opportunity to mold your character the way you see fit. I much prefer an RPG that lets me tweak my avatar the way I want to a game that pushes stats on you as you level, giving you little if any control (e.g. FFI-IV). If someone can figure out a way to emphasize interaction and decision-making without taking control over character devlopment away, then I'll be onboard.
Without the stats RPGs would just become another action game. The whole idea of an RPG is to have a character whose abillities might be entirely differant from your own. As it is I think we're seeing too much "twitch" in RPGs as it is right now with the way people bunny hop and circle strafe and such in things like WoW PVP (ie breaking line of sight before attacks go off) something which I don't think should really be a factor, and the actual problem that needs to be addressed with most PVP without going to a "turn based" format.
Generally speaking, RPGs are their own genere, if you don't care for the stats and such then you probably shouldn't be playing.
Also anyone who thinks the only thing that matters in a Paper and Pencil RPG is level has apparently not played many of them. If anything I think such a perception comes from MMOs that have implemented stats poorly, and where you really don't see much of a noticibale effect until the very highest levels.
To use AD&D2 for example, finding a way to finagle a natural strength of 19 allowed a character with such a stat to punch well above their weight class. A first level "Wild Elf Bladesinger" with a 19 strength could put out more damage than characters of vastly higher level with less muscle, and typically defeat characters several levels higher with ease unless they were similarly blessed.
Of course it's important to note that in a "true" RPG stats were determined randomly so the odds of getting such a character (unless the GM let you fudge the dice) were relatively nill. MMOs and to an increasing extent single player RPGs instead go with a set number of points on which to build your character as opposed to any kind of random numbers, meaning that everyone is equal and it all comes down to "builds". There are pros and cons to this, and like GURPS it leads to a lot of min-maxing and idealized point distribution.
I have often felt that MMO developers not only need to put more empathis on stats, but find some way of adding random elements to the entire process without alienating people who wind up with what they might see as "gimp" characters because the dice didn't land as perfectly for them compared to others.
Generally speaking, RPGs are their own genere, if you don't care for the stats and such then you probably shouldn't be playing.
Also anyone who thinks the only thing that matters in a Paper and Pencil RPG is level has apparently not played many of them. If anything I think such a perception comes from MMOs that have implemented stats poorly, and where you really don't see much of a noticibale effect until the very highest levels.
To use AD&D2 for example, finding a way to finagle a natural strength of 19 allowed a character with such a stat to punch well above their weight class. A first level "Wild Elf Bladesinger" with a 19 strength could put out more damage than characters of vastly higher level with less muscle, and typically defeat characters several levels higher with ease unless they were similarly blessed.
Of course it's important to note that in a "true" RPG stats were determined randomly so the odds of getting such a character (unless the GM let you fudge the dice) were relatively nill. MMOs and to an increasing extent single player RPGs instead go with a set number of points on which to build your character as opposed to any kind of random numbers, meaning that everyone is equal and it all comes down to "builds". There are pros and cons to this, and like GURPS it leads to a lot of min-maxing and idealized point distribution.
I have often felt that MMO developers not only need to put more empathis on stats, but find some way of adding random elements to the entire process without alienating people who wind up with what they might see as "gimp" characters because the dice didn't land as perfectly for them compared to others.
It depends. In a game like Mass effect there is indeed an argument for removing stats and turning it into a full-out FPS with story elements and the moral bar. You're still "role-playing" a character and have to make moral choices and decisions, removing stats in that case doesn't make it any less of a game. There is a serious argument here for doing this. Instead of insisting that we go through the dreaded lengthy and flow-breaking decisions about which skills to upgrade as we go on, give us the points at the start and allow us to design our own characters based on the strengths we think we'll need! We don't need to be constantly eying our experience scores. Levelling up and training are frequently what lets the wonderful storylines of RPG's down.
As far as I'm concerned, if it has choices and multiple paths, its a role-playing game, not an action game. So technically, that would make Final Fantasy a turn-based game, not a proper RPG (and I just know I'm going to get toasted for that, but I thought that was an important distinction.)
As far as I'm concerned, if it has choices and multiple paths, its a role-playing game, not an action game. So technically, that would make Final Fantasy a turn-based game, not a proper RPG (and I just know I'm going to get toasted for that, but I thought that was an important distinction.)
Attempts to Persuade Game Companies into Using his Idea with his 53 Speech Skill
[Failed]
Here's an idea. Instead of numbers, say, "Inexperienced", "New", "Learned", "Mastered", but secretly, it's actually just numbers. Don't see the numbers, though.
[Failed]
Here's an idea. Instead of numbers, say, "Inexperienced", "New", "Learned", "Mastered", but secretly, it's actually just numbers. Don't see the numbers, though.
I think Dark Messiah: Might & Magic has what this guy was looking for, but IMO it's rather bland in the customization department. That's what makes stats so fun.
TES:Oblivion kinda did that, but it also displayed the numbers to show how far along you were.TheFacelessOne said:
I had a gander at the entire article and honestly I can see his point but at the same time....the one thing I really like about RPGs is the progression. Even in the warhammer RPG (table top) you gain levels and get better at skills and what not but never gain any hit points with characters at level 1 being just as easy to kill as a level 10 character...potentially one hit. It makes the game truly challenging and tactics and planning a must.
Then there are games like mass effect and the white wolf game where you have levels but no stats just skills (granted in most you become harder to kill as you level up, either through hit points or skills that help you avoid damage)
I have to say that I don't understand the post as some one that has never played dogs. I think that part of what draws people to RPGs and makes them great isn't just playing a role and doing different things and making choices but character progression that isn't available or a feature of other games.
Then there are games like mass effect and the white wolf game where you have levels but no stats just skills (granted in most you become harder to kill as you level up, either through hit points or skills that help you avoid damage)
I have to say that I don't understand the post as some one that has never played dogs. I think that part of what draws people to RPGs and makes them great isn't just playing a role and doing different things and making choices but character progression that isn't available or a feature of other games.
the thing is, even that is impossible, as an actual RPG thrives on the knowledge of what your charicter can and cant do. setting the skill cap at 100 makes sence seeing as 100 represents a maximum, but games like WoW break that by using a simple pre-structured stat assignment program. FPS does not require detailed stats as long as medics are excluded, but when they are, certain details are a must, such as health. FPS games are moving towards a system where a gunshot to certain parts of the body have different effects. shooting someone in their hand lowers their accuracy, while shooting them in the knee or foot lowers their movement speed. this system is superior to the old for certain purposes, but it ends up brainwashing the 7-14 year olds faster. eventually FPS games will have programmed hearts, lungs, and skulls, making the "headshot instant kill" irrelevant as the chest is a much larger target and contains lungs, meaning that the person would bleed out.Mezzamine said:
RPG and Strategy games require more precise knowledge of what the charicters and units can do. you dont put a legion of gaurdians up against a battlecruiser because they cant attack it.
RPG's need stats. Role-playing means give the character options to fit player's style. Without stats the character has to be balanced in play, or specialized(removing customization). Imagine Oblivion without stats. You would either start the game as a god or be balanced removing certain customization options. A stealth-based character should have a hard time in melees. Even JRPG's need stats to level characters. Characters need to become more powerful over time, so certain items present challenges, and other challenges can be dealt with.
Stats are the only way certain games can work
Stats are the only way certain games can work
I think that people like to have the stats as the whole point in role playing games is to level up your character, well thats why i play past the main campaign anyway. I think they could do like a percentage system still keeping the stats, but rather than points on a scale say when you increase your strength percentage your speed percentage would level it out by coming down a bit, that way you could still have customisable characters but it would be balanced.
when games aren't run by numbers numbers, then sure we can have it then, but as of now even the oldest most boring way of using stats is a good way to progress character because there should always be a way to make your character straight up stronger because that way the learnign curve is easier and with your uber skills you can't just go to the end automatically and beat... whatever... plus i don't wanna be forced to kill what should be lv1s all the time at the same rate i kill later level enemies.... although i guess that's going a little off topic. What I'm saying is stats will always blow down to that, and even simple code which says "i click: Damage ball goes in direction: damage ball hits; is alive: do 40 dmg" is for all intents and purposes a stat for damage even if we don't see it. really stats are a way to display code in a way players can understand
They are what make an RPG an RPG, with out them, it would just be a plain old 'Action-Adventure' game.
how would you implement an RPG without stats?
It makes no sense, it's like a building without rivets.
I suppose you could make it proficiency bars but that just makes it more clumsy.
If he makes a game that's awesome I'll let these "innovative" comments slide.
It makes no sense, it's like a building without rivets.
I suppose you could make it proficiency bars but that just makes it more clumsy.
If he makes a game that's awesome I'll let these "innovative" comments slide.
There should be an option to remove or take out the stats of a player in an rpg, like the way certain options are available only on a certain difficulty in a game.
Personally they dont bother me, but i can see where this article is coming from.
Personally they dont bother me, but i can see where this article is coming from.