Runescape Bot Maker Loses Big In Lawsuit

jhaughton

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Nov 19, 2009
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you know it is funny
the second i read this i immediately downloaded the ibot program, and i dont even play runscape.
 

Kopikatsu

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May 27, 2010
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weirdguy said:
This is not the house of an honest person.
Coincidentally, that house isn't half as nice as Kim Dotcom's 30 million NZ mansion.

Freyar said:
Is ANYONE else concerned that Jagex is actually getting customer details from them too? That just reeks of "WTF".
...Pretty much every company ever collects and hands out your details. Why do you think you get so much junk mail all the time?
 

Gather

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Apr 9, 2009
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must transfer ownership of its websites
Ouch... Impulse is a good game developer and they are dealt this heavy of a blow? Holy god-diggty monkeys. That's practically saying "Hey guys, Zygax now owns Impulse due to a bot program."

That is a freaking harsh sentence and I don't think the judge knows it.
 

Baradiel

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Mar 4, 2009
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And.... unleash the hate for Runescape!!

Seriously, I have some good memories of that game. I loved it, and still do. I don't play it much anymore, but I started playing it about 7 or 8 years ago. It got too tedious to level up (most of my skills were in the 80s or 90s) so I eventually stopped playing regularly. I still pop on for a bit. I think I've still got membership running on my card.
 

Atmos Duality

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Sovvolf said:
Well, honestly, if you* don't like the grind, don't play the game. If that truly is the main focus of the game (I don't know, last time I played runescape was about 8(?) years ago) then you know what you're getting in for when you start playing. If grinding isn't your style then you shouldn't be anywhere near it.
Grind isn't a "style". It isn't even a legitimate gameplay concept or mechanic.
Grind is this and nothing else: A mechanic that deliberately wastes the player's time.

Prepare yourself: This is about to get long, and for that I apologize.


Botting is just cheating, it goes against the point of the game. To me its no different from buying a top level character in an MMO cause you can't be bothered to level it up.
1) "Botting is just cheating, it goes against the point of the game."
Actually, botting does not go against the point of the game.
Think about it: The point of most MMOs is to "level up" so that you can overcome greater obstacles. Botting accelerates that process; it doesn't replace it.

If the sole metric of challenge is a player's ability to withstand hours upon hours of boredom, IT ISN'T A LEGITIMATE GAME.

2) "...because you can't be bothered to level it up."

Stop and think for a moment. Why does this bother you? It isn't your character, it isn't your gameplay experience that is being altered*
[sub](*assume for a moment it doesn't. Don't worry, I'm addressing where it actually does later)[/sub]

The only difference between you and that botted character, is that they spent much less time grinding than you.
So what? So they spent less time playing. They didn't suddenly make the game worse for you.
You (ultimately) get access to the same quests, the same items, the same bloody *EVERYTHING*.

So by that logic, the only reason you would care is if you are jealous. And the only reason you would be jealous is that you didn't enjoy playing the game that long to get to that level.

You had to GRIND to get to where you are, and they didn't. Therefore, the GRIND is to blame.
It didn't add anything to your experience, it just artificially lengthened it.
Now for those caveats I mentioned earlier.

Caveats and rebuttals for thus:

i) "Botters ruin the player-driven-economy"
So they do. But you know what gives real-life value to those items the botters and gold-farmers sell?
Grind. The value of an item is based largely on two things: Its availability and its usefulness.

"Usefulness" is a function of the metagame, and doesn't tie into grind at all on its own (beyond the trend that developers place the most useful/powerful items at the highest rarities, but this is an arbitrary decision on their part).

"Availability" however, is a function of economics...Ahh.

So...
If everything were readily available, but not necessarily useful, then it becomes a game based purely on execution (after some trial-and-error to eliminate the weakest metagame choices of course).
But...
If everything were not readily available, then the value of any given item would increase by simple Supply and Demand; AMPLIFIED by usefulness.

So when an item is only valuable because you have to waste your time doing lots of mechanically-easy, but boring busywork to find it, it's hard to justify an entire economy comprised of those items.

ii) "Botters ruin PvP because they have better/twinked characters"
First, I need to make this clear: In order to be fun and balanced, PvP games MUST be based on planning and execution. You are matching your wits and skills against another player. That is the primary motivator for "friendly"(no-stakes) competition, no?

FACT: When you deny players an even playing field to start with, it isn't balanced.

"But earlier, you said that everyone ultimately ends up with the same stuff, which means everyone has the same options. Therefore, it is balanced"

I did, but this assumes two conditions:
1) That every player is given an unlimited amount of time to attain everything/access to everything.
2) And that the metagame conditions do not change (patches that introduce a new tier of gear, for example. Muck with existing skills, etc).

In practice, that isn't the case, and it is here that Grind has profoundly NEGATIVE effects.

In a game based purely on strategy/execution, grind isn't needed. At all.
That player with the ultra-rare gear? Why is it ultra-rare? Because the drop rates are low.
In this, again, time = power (or value, in connecting it to the economy).

For a normal person to acquire that gear (and thus the edge in PvP), they need to be exceedingly lucky, or have a lot of time to waste doing the same damn thing over and over again.
Even in the best case scenario, you have turned PvP at least in part, INTO A GAME OF CHANCE, NOT SKILL (execution/strategy).

That is NOT legitimate gameplay design; not for PvP.
Even Professional Gamblers play games of numbers with which they know the bounds and the odds.

Playing PvP in which the entire game hinges on you getting a trinket that drops 5% of the time at the end of an hour long dungeon, is akin to playing a slot machine that (on average) pays out once every 20 HOURS.

And that's assuming you play SOLO. Add more people into the mix, more people who all wanted that item? You've now added a denominator to that 5%. With 10 people for a party/raid, that rate becomes 1 every 200 HOURS.

It's gambling: Only instead of directly betting money, you bid your free time.
You think the botter's cheating is bad? The House is worse.

* You as in people in general, not specifically you.
No offense taken in any case.
 

Farther than stars

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I love how most people here act like they've never played an MMORPG before. I agree, Runscape is 90-99% grinding, which is completely aweful, but then so are most MMORPGs. The thing is though, it's big and it's multiplayer.
But, more importantly, it's free to play, which is something people have to rely on if they can't afford to buy a better game, for which I can't begrudge them. The people I will begrudge, however, are those who ruin the experience for other players by hacking into the game.
 

weirdee

Swamp Weather Balloon Gas
Apr 11, 2011
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1. The status quo means that Jagex won't change their game until the players actually want it to change. The players who did want something else left.

2. In order to preserve the status quo, Jagex has to waste their time chasing these people down to enforce their rules.

If they change, they lose their remaining customers. If they don't go after the bots, they lose their remaining customers.

Easy choice, right?
 

Ziadaine_v1legacy

Flamboyant Homosexual
Apr 11, 2009
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gigastar said:
keiskay said:
and how do bots hurt the company anyways? you still gotta be a member if you want to access all the skills/weapons/armor/world anyways.
According to Jagex, almost all bot users were gold farmers and thier bots were paid for with stolen credit cards, meaning that they ended up having to pay that back.

It may sound like its not much, but 2 months ago over 60% of the active playerbase was banned for bot-related offences.

Plus Runescape has a player-driven economy, so with bots doing all the tedious labor almost no one could make a decent earning with gathering raw materials.
About 60% of the users still cant make a decent earning due to the whole gambling phase that happened around the time of the bot nuke. long story short, poor players are unable to catch up due to the cost of leveling specific skills to match others but also need those skills to rake in the dough. And so the spiral of FUCK continues.
 

weirdee

Swamp Weather Balloon Gas
Apr 11, 2011
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Actually for noobs, there are many things that do make decent money that you wouldn't think about and allow you to get a leg up (iron ore prices in particular are too high to make sense), but the struggle continues anyway.

I see a lot more opportunity for them now than before, however it would require them to know more than they usually would.
 

Farther than stars

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Atmos Duality said:
Well, you made some interesting points there. But what I don't get is why you seem to hate this game with such a passion. I get your point that grinding is a bad thing; I agree, but I also get the point Sovvolf is making that if you don't like it, you don't have to play it.
After all, speaking from my own perspective there are a lot of things that I don't like and I have my opinions about those, but that doesn't mean that I have a problem with people playing certain games that I personally don't enjoy.
Do I think Runscape's a bad game? Yes, I would say that the grinding is dispicable. But that doesn't mean that I think it shouldn't have the right to exist, if not as a vent for the developers' creative minds, then for all the people who do enjoy it.
 

Will Holmes

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Mar 11, 2011
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ares556600 said:
People play runescape still? And wait the verdict was that it's better for people to click trees for hours than get a life and have it done automatically? And how do this negatively affect Jagex don't tell me they're doing micro transactions now.
*sigh* Yes, people play RuneScape, the number of members since the bot nuke has consistently been increasing. It has a huge and (since said bot nuke) healthy community that is full some of the friendliest people you'll ever meet.

There is grinding, but there is far less than there used to be, and there is easily enough variety that can make the entire experience extremely enjoyable. Players should be getting a life and joining friends chats, clans, teams, social groups and so on to do alongside the grinding. If you can't be sociable, then it's no wonder the world is so boring.

And Jagex have explicitly said they would never do micro-transactions in RuneScape. To this day, they've kept their word.
 

Cid Silverwing

Paladin of The Light
Jul 27, 2008
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Fawxy said:
God damn, this game still exists?

The botters were such a problem that I quit SIX YEARS AGO. I mean, fuck.
When something like this happens, you know something's gone wrong somewhere.
 

gigastar

Insert one-liner here.
Sep 13, 2010
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Ziadaine said:
gigastar said:
keiskay said:
and how do bots hurt the company anyways? you still gotta be a member if you want to access all the skills/weapons/armor/world anyways.
According to Jagex, almost all bot users were gold farmers and thier bots were paid for with stolen credit cards, meaning that they ended up having to pay that back.

It may sound like its not much, but 2 months ago over 60% of the active playerbase was banned for bot-related offences.

Plus Runescape has a player-driven economy, so with bots doing all the tedious labor almost no one could make a decent earning with gathering raw materials.
About 60% of the users still cant make a decent earning due to the whole gambling phase that happened around the time of the bot nuke. long story short, poor players are unable to catch up due to the cost of leveling specific skills to match others but also need those skills to rake in the dough. And so the spiral of FUCK continues.
Well, im not sure what you mean by that. There are various gathering skills you can do at almost no cost assuming you dont have the tools to raise money to train the other skills.

Also you dont need to use Soul Split on slayer assignments, its simply the best self-healing method to use and so people reccomend that first. Research your alternatives, basically.

And as far as i can see with the gambling phase, if people were stupid enough to break the games very clearly defined rules to do it, then they deserve to fail.
 

Whytewulf

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Dec 20, 2009
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Did you just try and justify things like BOTing? Guess what it's their game and if they don't want BOTs, a 3rd party can't infringe upon their code (copright violation as stated) and create one. And it's like you never played an MMOPRG before. Half the people only play to show off their new shiney toy they worked so hard to get. If everyone has one, the effort isn't worth it. Thus they may not play, thus people leave and the studio is harmed. I don't see how this suit is a bad thing.
 

Sovvolf

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Mar 23, 2009
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Atmos Duality said:
Sovvolf said:
Well, honestly, if you* don't like the grind, don't play the game. If that truly is the main focus of the game (I don't know, last time I played runescape was about 8(?) years ago) then you know what you're getting in for when you start playing. If grinding isn't your style then you shouldn't be anywhere near it.
Grind isn't a "style". It isn't even a legitimate gameplay concept or mechanic.
Grind is this and nothing else: A mechanic that deliberately wastes the player's time.
I always thought of it as a feeling of progression, further more, video games (and entertainment in general) is pretty much there to do nothing but to waste your time. Its a time passer, some just enjoy different means to having their times wasted than others.

To you, it must be the most boring feeling on this planet, for me... I actually enjoy it, the leveling up gives me the feeling of achievement and progression. Though with that its to each their own. Grinding can entertain me, to you it may not.

Atmos Duality said:
Prepare yourself: This is about to get long, and for that I apologize.
No shit G'ah long post, though I may have to limit myself to the ones regarding my argument. You made some good points in the others but there not the things I'm arguing.

Atmos Duality said:
Actually, botting does not go against the point of the game.
Think about it: The point of most MMOs is to "level up" so that you can overcome greater obstacles. Botting accelerates that process; it doesn't replace it.
Course it does, its someone doing all the work for you. Its like someone completing the game for you and they you just taking the credit for it.

Atmos Duality said:
If the sole metric of challenge is a player's ability to withstand hours upon hours of boredom, IT ISN'T A LEGITIMATE GAME.
1: As mentioned above it depends if its your thing or not, to you it may be boredom, to others that may be fun, fun is subjective.
2: Think we may be stepping into a "no true Scotsman" fallacy here.

Atmos Duality said:
2) "...because you can't be bothered to level it up."

Stop and think for a moment. Why does this bother you? It isn't your character, it isn't your gameplay experience that is being altered*
[sub](*assume for a moment it doesn't. Don't worry, I'm addressing where it actually does later)[/sub]

The only difference between you and that botted character, is that they spent much less time grinding than you.
So what? So they spent less time playing. They didn't suddenly make the game worse for you.
You (ultimately) get access to the same quests, the same items, the same bloody *EVERYTHING*.

So by that logic, the only reason you would care is if you are jealous. And the only reason you would be jealous is that you didn't enjoy playing the game that long to get to that level.

You had to GRIND to get to where you are, and they didn't. Therefore, the GRIND is to blame.
It didn't add anything to your experience, it just artificially lengthened it.
Well, its not really jealousy but the feeling of being cheated. Imagine, going to the gym and working out every day, eating healthy and putting all those hours in to making yourself look and feel good. Then some guy comes into the gym, sticks a load of needles into himself and there, all the same without any of the hard work.

You went out of your way and earned that only for some arsehole to pop up with the same thing but without putting the effort into it. To me, at that point... There's just no point in playing it if you do that.

Course it added to the experience, it is the experience, going from a lower 1 level character and working your way up into a powerhouse from time and effort. That's kind of the point of MMO's. Buying a top level character to me is the equivalent of entering the "Unlock all levels" cheat on a video game and then saying that you beat it.

Now before you get the wrong impression, I don't play MMO's or anything along those lines, I get to the level where you can't do anything without grouping and just give up cause I can't be arsed however, looking at it from the perspective as someone who does play it though. I'd be a bit peveed too.

Actually buying a level 60 character is kind of like some arsehole walking into a Martial Arts dojo with a paid for Black Belt. Real life is a grind specially training, I put hours of effort into getting mine (actually only a yellow belt in the martial arts I do that include belts but that's beside the point) then some guy, the same stedhead mentioned above comes into the gym with his freshly purchased one from a local sports store, would I be jealous? course not, I'd be outraged though. Course the fellow would got the same as these bots and be quickly kicked out of the gym but still... I hope you get my point.

Right I hope that clears the points up and this doesn't look a complete mess. When it comes to walls of texts I tend to get lost here and there. Sorry if that happens.
 

Vault101

I'm in your mind fuzz
Sep 26, 2010
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I logged on a while ago

bot....everyoen was bots..it was invasion of the body snatchters or somthing
 

Jdb

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May 26, 2010
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Runescape is the perfect example of how grind can ruin an otherwise decent game. For an MMO, Runescape's skill, quest, minigame, and player housing systems are unsurpassed. Too bad it takes at least three-thousand hours to max everything. And that's just the grind for skill levels. Certain skills and minigames have grinds within them too! The level of boredom associated with this much grinding is a war crime in fifty-seven countries.
 

JMeganSnow

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Ilikemilkshake said:
As a former Runescape player, bots harm the community and they wreck the ingame economy.
Yes the bots still pay membership, but thousands of legitimate players get fed up and stop playing because whats the point when half the people on a server are botting.
If it's possible to actually wreck the ingame economy using an automatic system, that's a *design flaw*, and the owners should not be entitled to harass people who take advantage of it. They're entitled to fix their design flaw is what they're entitled to do. And if they're too lazy to do it, oh well. Their players will leave, there will no longer be an incentive to bot, and the flawed, badly-designed game will die the death it deserves.

Now, me, I play an MMO where nobody bots, because you CAN'T--it takes an actual involved intelligence to get any of the benefits in the game. Heck, the devs accidentally broke the economy about a year ago by putting in a stupidly easy way to farm tons and tons of platinum. They then fixed it and never did anything to anybody who took advantage of it. Prices went up for a month or so. Now they're considerably LOWER than they were before since the devs also introduced several new, fun, and cool things that eat up tons of cash and resources.