Runescape Bot Maker Loses Big In Lawsuit

[Atmos Duality]

Literally your only argument here is that it doesn't matter that botting ruins the in-game economy because it is based on grinding. If that is an issue for you then again I will say the solution is to not play the game. There are people who enjoy the grind, there are people who don't, if you are in the latter group then play a different game.

Sorry, but I'll need more than the "it's subjective" argument. It's hand-waving.
While I agree with "The game is not for you" it in no way addresses my point.

Also, I don't buy into the "people enjoy grinding" argument one bit.
From my personal experience, they ***** about it. Constantly. And with good reason.

Why do people put up with it? Skinner-Psychology. Grind preys upon human behavior that was necessary for survival in real life, but doesn't apply to a simulation.

This has research to back it up, and has actually been shown on this site before.
If you need elaboration, I'll be happy to provide it (in two hours, after class).

Believe me, the game is a million times better now that the bots are gone, and for anyone that relied on bots to play the game, well, Runescape is better off without them. Simply put, the game was not meant for them.

Well, good for them I guess. A game of economics can be great fun (Civilization and most 4X games do this) but I don't agree with which the way MMOs handle it.

 

[C F]

Man, I loved Runescape. I tended to bump into the worse parts of the player-base more often than not, but I know that there are a lot of community-oriented people in there, too. I never played to get all those skills to 99, and I think people who do failed to grasp the spirit of the thing. Besides, I knew I wouldn't have the time. So I did minigames, I quested, I grinded, I dabbled in just about everything it had to offer without focusing too much on any given area. Judging by the amount of time I spent playing, I'd say it's filled its MMO addiction quota. We've had a falling out over the years; it grew away from the game I fell in love with back in 2006. For me, the process started with the removal of Tutorial Island, and ended with Dungeoneering. Ah, but I can reminisce.

I'm not even going to bother trying to justify/condemn botting. They're breaking the Terms of Service. It's that simple. Maybe the end result shown here seems too extreme, but I see this as a great comeuppance for the multitude of bots I've seen over the years. Plus, Jagex is a name I've come to trust through my play experiences, so I'm perfectly fine with how this issue turned out for them. They've got a heck of a staff at HQ, let me tell you.

Hmm, come to think of it, typing this makes me want to start playing again sometime...

 

[Sovvolf]

Why would you be outraged or jealous? You have the skills, he doesn't. If you went up against him, you're going to whoop his ass.
Pardon my presumption, but you practice to acquire the skills, not the belt. The belt is just a symbol, not skill itself.

I wouldn't be jealous, as you said, I could whoop his arse. However the outrage comes in that he's wearing something that symbolizes something that he hasn't achieved yet flaunting it as if he had. Its the same kind of outrage you'll hear from armed forces vets where someone wears a naval suite and starts claiming he's in the service.

You've put blood sweat and tears into getting your character that high and some arsehole just steps in with a character he bought acting like he's earned it. It goes against the point of the game, again its like just using the level skip cheating and claiming that you've beat the game.


The rest of your post just shows that you don't seem to get how it works or why people enjoy MMO's or RPG's in general. Which may mean you should stay away from them, they're clearly not your thing. The whole boring grindy stuff your talking about... They tend to like that, they tend to enjoy sitting there and getting their characters to an higher level. That's pretty much the point of the game.

Though your entire arguement for why botting isn't bad seems to be "I don't like MMO's" or "I don't like grind" where to put it simple and to do it without writing 8 paragraphs worth of stuff... It goes against the point of the game. If the point of the game (which you don't like but lets take that away for a sec) is to get your character to a high level with your friends and get all the nice gear, what is the point in getting some bot to do it? You've accomplished nothing. Again, its like buying a memory card with all the saved data of completed game and stating "I won".

Grind is taking an accomplishment you've already achieved, and stretches it out for no other reason than to waste time. You don't benefit from the added practice, and it's rather boring.
I'm not sure how one can have fun while they're bored, but if you can figure it out, by all means tell me.

Yes, waste your time, like a game is supposed to... I don't need to benefit from the added practice, I don't need some high time real life reward for it all. It a game, I play them to have fun, you find grinding boring, apparently others do too, I don't. I find it fun and like leveling up and feeling the benefits of my character getting stronger as I do it.

I can't tell you how you'd find it fun because if it isn't something you enjoy then you won't enjoy it. From the looks of things, your argument seems to be "if I don't find it fun, then others can't either". Trying to explain it to you would be akin to trying to explain to someone who doesn't like online shooters why COD is fun.

The arguement really is turning more into a why I don't like MMO's or Grinding than it does the actually arguement for why bots are bad. Though, me'h maybe I'm wrong, won't be the first time and won't be the last.

 

[jFr[e]ak93]

and how do bots hurt the company anyways? you still gotta be a member if you want to access all the skills/weapons/armor/world anyways.

It can become a huge pain if someone is Botting, gets supper good at fighting, then starts killing people off in the wild.
It runs the experience down for those that play it legitimately.

 

[veloper]

Here's an idea: have a new MMO with the bot already included in the package.

This will allow players with less free time to keep up with friends who have too much free time and keep raiding together.

Secondary advantages of this scheme:
2 the economy is predictable again and can now be steered more easily from the developer's side.
3 progress through the game will be as slow or as fat as the designer configures the grind and it will slow down all players equally, even the kids who can play every day. Payment is still monthly, so this should be good for business too.

There's ofcourse also a downside, which is that the compulsive skinner's box mechanism that makes people keep playing MMOs, may suffer.
The game will have to rely on fun gameplay and interesting dungeon design so people will want to check in from time to time, which can turn this downside into an upside again.

 

[Atmos Duality]

I wouldn't be jealous, as you said, I could whoop his arse. However the outrage comes in that he's wearing something that symbolizes something that he hasn't achieved yet flaunting it as if he had.

A high level is a badge of honor?
I thought the point of playing the game was to play the game, not to compare yourself to others. Unless you're in competition with that person (which I've already described in painful detail), I don't get why anyone would care.

You've put blood sweat and tears into getting your character that high and some arsehole just steps in with a character he bought acting like he's earned it. It goes against the point of the game, again its like just using the level skip cheating and claiming that you've beat the game.

So they skipped all the low-level content.
If you were playing for the experience of playing, then it's their loss, not yours.
This is true if they are higher level, or lower level than you.

Therefore, this logic is true only when you're comparing yourself to others, which in the absence of competition is nonsensical.

The rest of your post just shows that you don't seem to get how it works or why people enjoy MMO's or RPG's in general. Which may mean you should stay away from them, they're clearly not your thing. The whole boring grindy stuff your talking about... They tend to like that, they tend to enjoy sitting there and getting their characters to an higher level. That's pretty much the point of the game.

Except I do understand how they work.
I analyze them; I've bloody played them (more than a few).

You say that they enjoy that...I am analyzing WHY. I can think of a number of reasons one might enjoy an MMO in spite of the grind:
1) Social Factor/Multiplayer (mandatory teamwork makes you feel like you can contribute to something bigger. You get your friends involved to overcome a challenge you might not be able to alone)
2) World-scale/Setting (I have a friend who played WoW as a sort of Sight-seeing Tourist, rather than the usual Quest for the Bigger Numbers)
3) Just plain old good core gameplay either in concept or in practice. (Ignoring the coefficient of grind, which I explain just below)

If the point of the game (which you don't like but lets take that away for a sec) is to get your character to a high level....what is the point in getting some bot to do it? You've accomplished nothing. Again, its like buying a memory card with all the saved data of completed game and stating "I won".

The problem here lies in that you don't "win" MMOs, because there is no point of closure.
There's no special prize for attaining a high level.
All it states is that you performed some incredibly simple tasks a great number of times.

(And I can say simple, because MOST MMOs are very simple to play in practice; if they weren't, one wouldn't be able to "bot" in the first place. If the game was based more on complex interactions, aka, what I keep calling "execution" then there would be far fewer bots.)

Hypothetically: If you were to remove all the mundane repetition, converted each challenge down to a "One and done" situation, and focud exclusively on what the game actually had to offer you would find that nearly ALL of these MMOs have either incredibly weak/easy gameplay or incredibly short durations.

Only by padding them out and taking full advantage of Skinner-Box psychology do MMOs get away with this.

So lets goes back to the argument of "Grind is the point of the game".
(Remember: In the absence of envy, personal comparisons are nonsensical, and we've already eliminated fair competition. So, we're looking solely at the appeal of the gameplay here.)

Here's the kicker; if grind is the point of the game, why not just pick up a different game and replay that one over and over again? Hell, pick something with multiplayer and get your friends on board.

WHY NOT? YOU'RE DOING THE SAME THING.
The only thing missing is a little counter that keeps track of the number of times you've done it, and it telling you to keep doing it.

You're taking established gameplay that you've probably mastered (or are at least competent at), and repeating it an arbitrary number of times. That's grind.
In fact, that's a very precise practical definition of grind:
"Repetition of an action for an arbitrary number of times."

The "level up" screen? It's ultimately just a counter for how long you've been grinding; it's just numbers, and numbers can be changed. It in itself is not an accomplishment because:
1) There are always bigger numbers.
2) Most encounters can be handled by the same exact strategy/approach. "Flowchart Gameplay". The only thing that changes, THE ONLY THING, is the scaling on the numbers. Remove the scaling, and you have the same, simple task as before.

Therefore, attaching your ego to those numbers is nonsensical when the task to acquire those numbers is so easy to perform individually.

This is why "Grind is the point of the game" is false, because it can't be the point of the game; it's a coefficient of something else and cannot exist on its own. It needs legitimate gameplay to actually exist, and it cheapens said gameplay experience.

But don't take my word for it, this is an example of what a game would be if it were literally nothing but grind:
http://progressquest.com/play/

If your only reward for doing a task is the privilege of doing that task again, then that task is not a game. It's just an addiction.

Yes, waste your time, like a game is supposed to...

This is an argument I've seen before, and it isn't true at all.
If a game is meant to waste your time, then why play it?

This argument creates a contradiction in the very premise of doing...well anything.
Sometimes we have to do things we don't want to and would do anything else to get away from them. That might the case here, it might not, but WE ALWAYS HAVE A REASON, even if we do not consciously understand (or want to admit) what that reason is.

"Wasting time for the sake of wasting time" is circular logic. It's a fallacy.
Ergo, it's not true.

People do not necessarily have a conscious understanding of why they do things (we involuntarily act on things all the time), but there is always a reason.

I don't need to benefit from the added practice, I don't need some high time real life reward for it all. It a game, I play them to have fun, you find grinding boring, apparently others do too, I don't. I find it fun and like leveling up and feeling the benefits of my character getting stronger as I do it.

Skinner-Box Logic explains all of that. There is science behind this.

A good "Layman's Article" on the topic, and how it pertains to gaming.

http://www.cracked.com/article_18461_5-creepy-ways-video-games-are-trying-to-get-you-addicted.html

It's a trait of human behavior we've retained since the days of hunter-gatherers.
I won't pretend to understand or know you, but if I had to take an educated guess, I'd wager that it's not the process of grinding that you enjoy; it's only the leveling up reward.

I can't tell you how you'd find it fun because if it isn't something you enjoy then you won't enjoy it. From the looks of things, your argument seems to be "if I don't find it fun, then others can't either". Trying to explain it to you would be akin to trying to explain to someone who doesn't like online shooters why COD is fun.

*sigh* it's the "It's Subjective" argument again.
Wave the hand, twirl the wand, and you too can make anything you don't want to discuss/analyze disappear.

Very well then.
If this is really going nowhere, then I won't bother you with the subject again after this.

 

[JMeganSnow]

As a former Runescape player, bots harm the community and they wreck the ingame economy.
Yes the bots still pay membership, but thousands of legitimate players get fed up and stop playing because whats the point when half the people on a server are botting.

If it's possible to actually wreck the ingame economy using an automatic system, that's a *design flaw*, and the owners should not be entitled to harass people who take advantage of it. They're entitled to fix their design flaw is what they're entitled to do. And if they're too lazy to do it, oh well. Their players will leave, there will no longer be an incentive to bot, and the flawed, badly-designed game will die the death it deserves.

Now, me, I play an MMO where nobody bots, because you CAN'T--it takes an actual involved intelligence to get any of the benefits in the game. Heck, the devs accidentally broke the economy about a year ago by putting in a stupidly easy way to farm tons and tons of platinum. They then fixed it and never did anything to anybody who took advantage of it. Prices went up for a month or so. Now they're considerably LOWER than they were before since the devs also introduced several new, fun, and cool things that eat up tons of cash and resources.

You make a fair point. I still wouldnt agree that that makes it acceptable for players to exploit this though and use bots when its both against the rules and the spirit of the game and community.

Yeah, and maybe you can order the tide to roll back, too. Systems that attempt to circumvent human nature will always fail, and one primary component of human nature is the desire, no drive, to do/get more with less. People always seek to improve and, in fact, gain great happiness by doing so. This drive for improvement is, in fact, exploited BY MMO's to build and maintain a userbase.

If the company producing the game leaves an opening for people to exploit to improve their characters more quickly/easily, of course people are going to use it. Making some arbitrary rule that says "don't do that" isn't going to change a thing. You know what this lawsuit is going to change? It's just going to raise the bar for botting entry a tad. If that. Those inclined to bot will no longer have an easy source for material, so the activity will be restricted only to those who can write their own bots. They'll be more clandestine about it, as well. That's all that will change. The improvement, if any, will be marginal.

Instead of harassing the iBot people, the Runescape developers ought to be thanking them. The bot service probably hugely prolonged the sustainable existence of Runescape in the marketplace of newer, better-designed MMO's.

That's not to say that I encourage people to break the terms of service, necessarily. It's just that companies need to realize that some click-to-accept agreement isn't going to stop people from behaving like people. Heck, if they decide to start banning botters en masse, exactly how long is Runescape going to remain profitable?

This isn't a case of a poor developer being exploited by a nasty bunch of hackers. It's a case of poor design leading to a DEMAND for the hacks, which, of course, someone stepped in to supply. It might as well be the War on Drugs. No matter how many high school guidance counselors you have going around saying Marjuana is Bad, mm'kay, as long as there's a demand that big, someone will supply it. If you make supplying it criminal, the suppliers will be criminal. If there's enough demand, you wind up with organized crime.

Angry prohibition is not the answer.

 

[Sovvolf]

Very well then.
If this is really going nowhere, then I won't bother you with the subject again after this.

How mature of you. You know I've tried not to get personal with this discussion and even tried to make clear that I wasn't meaning offence however, cause we disagree, I guess I'm not worthy of debating with you.

I could address you're points above but what is the point if I ain't worth the reply. I will add begrudgingly that you did make some rather good ones though that I didn't have much to rebuke with. Guess you've bested, you've put more research into it, given your profile information you analyse games far more often and thus probably more qualified. I know when I'm beat, its hard to swallow my pride and say that but its true, though it would have been a whole lot better if we'd left the discussion on better terms.

Though I still stand by my opinion that fun is subjective. That might be a giant handwave but I can't see any other way to describe fun. Nor do I think many should have to justify it.

 

[Necrofudge]

I realize this was all good and necessary and stuff, but damn, they really degraded the people in the company. The public apology, the banning from any Jagex game ...

and having to give up and destroy all their source code and domains... Might as well ask em to just undress in the court room with that last demand.

Don't tell me you wouldn't do the same when you're the victim of relentless heckling and product stealing for almost a decade from a bunch of recurring thugs in Tommy Hilfigers who like to piss on your dog as well?

Yes, but the question is kind of weird since it has absolutely nothing to do with these people. These guys weren't "thugs who like to piss on your dog," and I have absolutely no idea where the hell you pulled that out from.

...Maybe some of their customers were (the people who actually used the bot), but that's beside the point.

This was a semi-legitimate business that made a less than legal product and was punished for it. The lawsuit made sense. However, I can still feel sorry for them having to give up all resources even remotely related to the bot. It wasn't enough that they were forced to stop, all their digital property was seized. That can be a *****. Plus banning their employees from all future Jagex games seemed like a strange add-on.

 

[Atmos Duality]

How mature of you. You know I've tried not to get personal with this discussion and even tried to make clear that I wasn't meaning offence however, cause we disagree, I guess I'm not worthy of debating with you.

Not worthy? No, no. Far from it. My only requisite is civility, which you have shown.
I'm sorry if I came across as arrogant or condescending there.

Though I still stand by my opinion that fun is subjective. That might be a giant handwave but I can't see any other way to describe fun. Nor do I think many should have to justify it.

Well, I believe there is more to it than mere preference.
But the problem with leaving it as a purely-subjective argument, is that it becomes precisely that: Preference and nothing more.

 

[Sovvolf]

How mature of you. You know I've tried not to get personal with this discussion and even tried to make clear that I wasn't meaning offence however, cause we disagree, I guess I'm not worthy of debating with you.

Not worthy? No, no. Far from it. My only requisite is civility, which you have shown.
I'm sorry if I came across as arrogant or condescending there.

Though I still stand by my opinion that fun is subjective. That might be a giant handwave but I can't see any other way to describe fun. Nor do I think many should have to justify it.

Well, I believe there is more to it than mere preference.
But the problem with leaving it as a purely-subjective argument, is that it becomes precisely that: Preference and nothing more.

Apologies on this end also, I took it the wrong way and was a little harsh. I tend to take stuff like that extremely personally and thus act far harsher that I would normally like. Though I guess I agree, leaving it merely to subjectivity may be a little bit of an over simplification.

 

[guynumber1]

I've been playing runescape for around 8 years and I've recently started botting. Not possible to have a life and work/study and play rs at the same time.

Most people who I know in game who are maxed (99 in every skill) have spent over 700 24-hour days on their accounts. That's the time it takes to get a Ph.D. They probably got kicked out of their house and somehow found internet in a homeless shelter or something, playing rs beside crackheads.

Grinding isn't the same in RS as it is in games like WoW. To get 99 in all combat skills it takes an EXPERIENCED player 2 years, playing 3-4 hours a day. Then there's all the quests and the other 80% of skills which take even longer to level than combat. Then finally there's bossing and all that fun stuff. I know people (myself included) who have killed the same boss for OVER A FUCKING YEAR and not gotten the drop we were trying to get (drop rate is 1/1500, or 0.067%).

Generally the drug dealer gets a worse punishment than a drug user. Something that makes you waste 17,000 hours of your life (it is said it takes 15,000 to truly master something!) with absolutely no reward (in fact, it is detrimental to your ability to focus and/or get laid) would be MUCH worse than many common illegal drugs.

Anyone who defends Jagex is defending a crack dealer. Jagex makes 100 million annually by eating at people's souls. Their job is to make the game more addictive, and now they have microtransactions. You can now buy levels, though for a ridiculous price (~$30,000 for all 99s), after Jagex stated that this sort of thing was against the spirit of the game, implying they would never participate in it (until they found out they could more than double their profit by selling useless shit).

Bots save lives, in every sense of the phrase.