Samuel L. Jackson Thinks Force Awakens Actors Need "Lightsaber Fight School"

[Fappy]

Most of you in the thread are thinking about this entirely wrong. You're justifying/reasoning why the duels were so bad with everything plot-wise in the movie but none of it really had to be in the movie to begin with.

Finn didn't need to be a stormtrooper, Kylo didn't need to be undertrained, Rey didn't need to have not had training. After seeing the movie 3 times I felt as though they almost didn't want to put lightsabers in it at all, much less have people fight with them.

It's almost as if every plot point and bit of lore in the movie is designed so they didn't have to have lightsaber duels, and what is the point exactly? Lightsabers are one of, if the not the, most popular parts of the Star Wars franchise, I'm sure they could have written a billion and one different things into the movie to give fans a decent duel.. how about not completely removing the Sith from existence for a start.

And on that point, if the Sith really have been completely and utterly destroyed and replaced with the Knights of Ren, I'm done with Star Wars, that would have to be the stupidest fucking decision of all time, the Sith are Star Wars just as much as Jedi are... who cares if the KoR are basically Sith, it would be like episode 8 replacing all Jedi with "Peacekeepers" or some bullshit.

Hello, there were such things as Sith purebloods, there is a Sith code, there is a Sith homeworld, it has always been the Jedi and the Sith, 2 sides of the same coin.

To be honest, the more I think about Force Awakens, the more I hate it.

A lot of the sith lore is in canonnical limbo as far as I can tell. That's good too, because I've always thought Sith EU lore was utter shit.

 

[Loonyyy]

Yah... because none of the people in this movie were trained by masters... the fights in eps 4,5, and 6 were slow too. Lightsaber dules are a "lost art" at this point. I actually thought the film did a great job of bridging the fights between the orig trig and prequels.

In fact, only one of the three lightsaber wielders have any prior experience with using a lightsaber and is also the only one who might have had any sort of formal training with them. That particular character is also explicitly not fully trained. It shows in the choreography of the fight, where the two untrained characters use the sabers inefficiently, telegraph their attacks and generally seem as if they barely know how to hold the weapon. The trained character wields the saber better but also uses an inefficient technique. I'd argue that it is actually intentional that the duel scenes look like none of the actors had any real weapon training prior to filming.

I think there's even more to it than that.

Spoiler

The fight is choreographed to say something about their character. When Finn holds the saber high with both hands, his pose is basically determination. He's coming full circle with his arc, and deciding to face the first order, face evil, the thing he feared and wanted to run from, for his friend. And while he's clumsy, he holds and swings the thing like melee weapons aren't something he's completely alien to. We see that other troopers use melee weapons. He's pretty rubbish at it, but he manages not to lose a limb.

Rey is clearly desperate and angry to avenge Finn, and we've seen before that she carried a staff, and could fight, and her scrappiness informs her character as well. She's a loner, she's small, and there are a lot of people who'd try to rip her off, sometimes more than one at once. She's more aggressive, and stabs the thing like a spear.

And then Ren is bloody obvious with his monster swings, his style is all about rage and anger. There's not that much difference between how he swings at a human being, even one putting up a resistance with a saber, and how he swings at a computer terminal.

I think that's something the "Rey is OP" crowd missed, whatever the plausibility of the fight, whatever it says for Ren, it fits thematically, and it fits narrative wise. This is the part where the heroes overcome their enemy, and resolve their arcs. Finn faces his worst fear, and puts himself entirely on the line for his friend, Rey accepts the saber even though it scared her, and in doing so, accepts her future. It's basic storytelling. It happened to be a great fight too.

Honestly, thinking of it that way, looking back at the prequels, the fights lose some of their lustre. I didn't mind those duels, but outside of a few characters, Darth Maul (Good), Yoda(Really not good), and that's probably it, there's not that much personalisation going on. The fights are all extremely choreographed, with turns, flips, and poses, and most of the Jedi and Sith fight pretty much indistinguishably.

Jackson, you're a badass, but you're wrong. I actually felt afraid for the characters during these duels, throughout. In the prequels, there's always a que after a bunch of fighting where things get lethal. You get an epic battle, but it's over choreographed. It's like the difference between watching Pro Wrestling and MMA. The second's just more visceral and immediate. Might not be prettier, might not have as much variety, but it's got the intensity.

 

[RJ 17]

Sorry they weren't just dancing around with a stronger emphasis on putting on a rockin' light show than actually fighting, Sam.

 

[Scarim Coral]

Ok cool, so we should send the three to Ludosport Lightsaber Combat Academy then?

Spoiler: Yes this is a real school in Italy

 

[Agow95]

I thought that was the point, I really appreciated that the people who have never wielded a lightsaber before nor been trained in the force used them like they had no idea what they were doing, and that really made me appreciate the stark contrast between them and Kylo Ren, who did fight much more elegantly, actually doing some of the classic fancy fight moves and stuff.

 

[Bernzz]

He has a point, but he's also wrong.

Yeah, they need lightsaber training. Finn is a good shot with his Stormtrooper training, but he's not a melee combatant.
Rey is mostly trained with her staff, a two handed weapon.

Ren is revealed as being not completely trained (Snoke mentioning he needs to complete his training), and was also heavily wounded by Chewie's BFG, and emotionally traumatised from killing his father.

I'm assuming future saber duels will be more experienced, but still have that visceral feel to them.

 

[Gordon_4_v1legacy]

While there's no denying that the fight choreography from the [prequels] was impressive, it also frequently looked like something practiced. The fights were too dance-like, often lasted way too long and just didn't feel like the people involved were actually trying to kill each other. The fights in The Force Awakens were perhaps less dynamic but were, in my opinion, more visceral and closer in tone to the ones featured in the original trilogy.

This is pretty much exactly what I said after I saw the movie. The Force Awakens lightsaber fights were my favorite so far. More visceral and fun to watch than the original trilogy, but not over-choreographed and lacking in dramatic intensity like the in the prequel trilogy. And it's a small thing, but the idea that one could inflict more minor wounds--just like in a real-life swordfight--was a great touch, whereas fights in Episode I-VI it was always clash-clash-clash for a looooong time followed by dismemberment or death.

Thats why I liked the fight between Dooku and Obi Wan in Episode 2, it was over quickly and Dooku ended it by inflicting relatively minor glancing wounds on Kenobi.

There's a line in the novelisation of Ep II that lays out that most Jedi are trained to fight people with blasters, but that Dooku is specifically trained to fight as a swordsman which is why he beats Kenobi.

 

[K12]

"It's almost like they need to go to lightsaber fight school"... which of course none of these characters did.

Which is a good thing! The idea of lightsaber fighting being a neon gymnastic routine is a new idea (and not a good one).

 

[remnant_phoenix]

While there's no denying that the fight choreography from the [prequels] was impressive, it also frequently looked like something practiced. The fights were too dance-like, often lasted way too long and just didn't feel like the people involved were actually trying to kill each other. The fights in The Force Awakens were perhaps less dynamic but were, in my opinion, more visceral and closer in tone to the ones featured in the original trilogy.

This is pretty much exactly what I said after I saw the movie. The Force Awakens lightsaber fights were my favorite so far. More visceral and fun to watch than the original trilogy, but not over-choreographed and lacking in dramatic intensity like the in the prequel trilogy. And it's a small thing, but the idea that one could inflict more minor wounds--just like in a real-life swordfight--was a great touch, whereas fights in Episode I-VI it was always clash-clash-clash for a looooong time followed by dismemberment or death.

Thats why I liked the fight between Dooku and Obi Wan in Episode 2, it was over quickly and Dooku ended it by inflicting relatively minor glancing wounds on Kenobi.

There's a line in the novelisation of Ep II that lays out that most Jedi are trained to fight people with blasters, but that Dooku is specifically trained to fight as a swordsman which is why he beats Kenobi.

That makes a lot of sense.

By the time of the prequels, the Sith were gone for so long that the Jedi focused their training on countering blaster fire, closing distances, and attacking to destroy/kill without resistance once distance was closed. I mean, if there's no Sith around, the only other lightsaber wielders are Jedi and they're not going to fight each other to the death.

On the other hand, Sidious/Palpatine, Maul, and Tyranous/Dooku knew that they would have to face and defeat Jedi to succeed, so they trained accordingly.

Interesting.

 

[remnant_phoenix]

While there's no denying that the fight choreography from the [prequels] was impressive, it also frequently looked like something practiced. The fights were too dance-like, often lasted way too long and just didn't feel like the people involved were actually trying to kill each other. The fights in The Force Awakens were perhaps less dynamic but were, in my opinion, more visceral and closer in tone to the ones featured in the original trilogy.

This is pretty much exactly what I said after I saw the movie. The Force Awakens lightsaber fights were my favorite so far. More visceral and fun to watch than the original trilogy, but not over-choreographed and lacking in dramatic intensity like the in the prequel trilogy. And it's a small thing, but the idea that one could inflict more minor wounds--just like in a real-life swordfight--was a great touch, whereas fights in Episode I-VI it was always clash-clash-clash for a looooong time followed by dismemberment or death.

Thats why I liked the fight between Dooku and Obi Wan in Episode 2, it was over quickly and Dooku ended it by inflicting relatively minor glancing wounds on Kenobi.

I haven't seen the prequels in so long and Ep.II is my least favorite Star Wars movie so I don't remember this at all.

I need to re-watch the prequels.

 

[Kenjitsuka]

"I think the kids need to go to lightsaber fight school," he said. "
Pretty sure the whole POINT is that they will BOTH indeed, go to LS Fight school.
One to Snook, the other to Luke (and yes, that rhymes)...

So next we'll see better fighting. Not that that needs to be LONGER, per se.
A fight tends to get long when the combatants are nearly equal.

 

[Mahorfeus]

As someone who generally prefers the prequel trilogy's lightsaber duels, I would really like to see more of a balance between the two styles. For as sluggish as TFA's fight understandably was, I agree that it felt really visceral. I don't think it's impossible to have that, while still speeding things up a bit.

 

[Morti]

As someone who generally prefers the prequel trilogy's lightsaber duels, I would really like to see more of a balance between the two styles. For as sluggish as TFA's fight understandably was, I agree that it felt really visceral. I don't think it's impossible to have that, while still speeding things up a bit.

On the contrary, they could still be sped up a bit, the main reason that they feel more visceral is that, unlike the prequel, they appear to be actually trying to hurt each other instead of flailing around randomly.

 

[happyninja42]

Yah... because none of the people in this movie were trained by masters... the fights in eps 4,5, and 6 were slow too. Lightsaber dules are a "lost art" at this point. I actually thought the film did a great job of bridging the fights between the orig trig and prequels.

In fact, only one of the three lightsaber wielders have any prior experience with using a lightsaber and is also the only one who might have had any sort of formal training with them.

Only one person That we know of. There is a lot of theory going around that

Spoiler

Rey is a hidden padawan that survived Kylo Ren's purge

And thus might also have had training. Speculation I know, but it's a possibility, and your statement is definitely accurate based on the information provided in the movie by itself.

OT: Yes, please let's let them look entirely choreographed and fake like the fighting in Eps 1-3, good call Mr. Jackson. *rolls eyes*

 

[Hawki]

Training? Nah. Don't you remember that Rey is perfect and succeeds at everything she does? She doesn't need any training, what ya talking about?

But yes, the lightsaber fight in TFA was terrible. Of all the movie lightsaber fights, I can only rank it above Anakin and Obi-Wan vs. Dooku in Ep. 2. And that's an incredibly low bar.

 

[The Rogue Wolf]

For a highly choreographed dance routine... No, it wasn't very impressive.

For a fight to the death though, you could do way worse... like the Prequels.

You could do way worse with way superior-looking duels?

They weren't superior-looking to me. More acrobatic, sure, but it looked like they were trying to impress each other with giant glowsticks. The fight in TFA looked like they were actually trying to kill each other with weapons.

 

[Sniper Team 4]

If they need to go to school, Mr. Jackson, then the three Jedi MASTERS who went with you to arrest the Sith Lord need to not only have their sabers taken away, but also their rank of Master. And probably even the title of Jedi. At least these kids knew how to freaking block and dodge.

I kind of liked the new fighting style. I'm sure it will get more graceful in the next few episodes, but I enjoyed it for what it was--as everyone already said, two people who aren't used to using the weapon versus someone who should have been blown off of a bridge from the gut shot but is only bleeding out instead.
And it was miles better than the drawn out garbage that was Anakin vs. Obi in Revenge of the Sith.

 

[Nurb]

The prequel fights were flash over substance.

If anything...

Spoiler

Rey knew how to use it TOO well in the movie as it is, she goes from nothing to using force powers in a matter of hours. I really hope she ends up being a survivor of the jedi school, as it's the only explination that doesn't make her quick abilities absurd.

 

[laggyteabag]

The fights in VII were gritty and vicious, these were two people who aren't trained in the art of lightsaber combat trying to kill each other. It was gritty, violent, and dirty. In comparison, the fights in the prequels were the opposite, and in some cases, too much so, where they sometimes felt, as the OP states, like a dance, or practiced. Personally, I much prefer the fights in VII than the ones in the prequels, and in some cases, the original trilogy, because I have never been a fan of the whole front flipping thing that started to be introduced the the fights.