Samuel L. Jackson Thinks Force Awakens Actors Need "Lightsaber Fight School"

[Kahani]

The duels are supposed to be more intimate. If you look at the original movies, every time someone there was a duel, there was something personal going on between the two characters. The prequels looked nice, but they didn't amount to anything because the characters had no established relationships to each other.

Exactly. The original films didn't have lightsabre fights, they had important plot and character moments in which the participants happened to be holding laser swords. The prequels had flashy ballet in which people we didn't know or care about failed to do or say anything much at all. How many words did the jedi exchange with Darth Maul in the entire Phantom Menace? Without watching it again to check, I'm pretty sure it's zero, and if not it's damn close. No-one killed or is anyone else's father, no-one's being called to turn to or reject temptation, no-one even knows who the bad guy is at all. Attack of the Clones was just as bad, the people involved in fights at least aren't mutes this time, but it's again characters we haven't been introduced to in any meaningful way fighting without any motivation other than "we're good guys and he isn't". Revenge was the only one that even attempted to do anything with the fights other than look flashy, and it's no coincidence that it's considered by far the best of the prequels. The fight between Vader and Obi-wan in Star Wars was objectively terrible, there was virtually no choreography at all, and what little there was was ruined by having the opponents be an old Shakespearean actor and a guy in suit who could barely move and see even less. But it's remembered more fondly than any fight from the prequels because it wasn't the swordplay and dance moves that were the important part.

Sure, the lightsaber duel didn't look all that acrobatic and impressive, but you know what it did look like? A real fight. An amateur fight perhaps, but a real fight nonetheless.

Exactly. I think part of the problem is that most people have no idea what a sword fight actually looks like; they're too used to the Errol Flynn-style usually used in films where people dance around the place desperately trying to avoid accidentally hitting each other. It looks cool when done right and allows the participants plenty of opportunity for witty quips, but a lot of the time ends up looking far too choreographed and fake, and even if that's not the case it's going to get boring if it goes on too long (see also - pod races). Real fights are much less acrobatic, much shorter, and involve people actually trying to hit each other and not just the other person's sword. Modern fencing is somewhat stylised, but it's still reasonably accurate in the broad sense - the whole point is to actually hit the other person with your sword, and that doesn't involve dancing, spinning, or repeatedly banging your swords together above your heads. Jedi having fast reflexes wouldn't change that, it would just mean they're faster at doing the same basic things.

The thing I found most, shall we say annoying about the fights, is that when they swung the lightsabers, it looked like a broadsword. As in, it had a heavy heft to it. Lightsabers, lorewise, were so light and so unlike other melee weapons, that they took so long to master. I think they had it backwards in the movie, the swings were slow where they should have been fast. If they wanted to show inexperience they could have swung the blade too far, leaving themselves open.

But that wouldn't leave them open. Swinging your sword too hard leaves you open because of momentum - once you've started the swing you can't easily stop it and it takes time to bring it back again. The same lack of weight that would make the swing quicker would also mean you could bring it back into position almost instantly. I agree that lightsabre use isn't especially realistic given how they're supposed to work, but that's ultimately for the same reasons the spaceship battles are so unrealistic as well - it's a stylistic choice based on the genres it was influenced by, not something that can be explained in-universe. I think their use in TFA was consistent with the previous films, so it makes sense that they showed inexperience by being slow and clumsy rather than in a more logical way that wouldn't be easily understood by most of the audience.

 

[Bocaj2000]

It makes sense. Lots of openings for a quick stab. Biggest pet peeve of all swordighting is an overhead swing.

There is literally no way you can defend if I were to attack you right now. Quick lunge to the stomach- dead. And I'd be too close for your big swing to be effective.

I bring this up because I saw Rey do this in slow motion and all I was thinking was, Kylo, if you were to stab her right now a la Hook vs Rufio, I'd be so happy.

So yeah... the fighting was emotional and all that shit (TR-8R is bae), but the fight with Rey vs Kylo was dumb.

[activate flameshield]

 

[LetalisK]

Having just watched the The Force Hope for the first time yesterday, I thought the fighting was slow, amateurish, and completely appropriate. Specifically, Kylo is such an emotional mess that it felt right that he didn't suddenly go Darth Maul on everybody. I liked how when he was calm and collected he seemed to be powerful(ie able to freeze a blaster bolt or invade a person's mind), but then just started losing it the more emotional he became.

That said, I also felt the prequel fighting was appropriate.

 

[Zydrate]

One was actually trained, and two of them had your run-of-the-mill combat training. I wasn't expecting any flips and spinning from them, and he shouldn't have either.

 

[hermes]

Of course it was less flashy: two of them have almost never used one before. It would have been extra ridiculous if Finn and Rey started juggling around the moment they turned on the sabers.

But this is hardly news worthy. Jackson didn't attack the movies, he just commented that the fighting style looked amateurish, which is entirely true and justified in the movie.

 

[Zipa]

While there's no denying that the fight choreography from the [prequels] was impressive, it also frequently looked like something practiced. The fights were too dance-like, often lasted way too long and just didn't feel like the people involved were actually trying to kill each other. The fights in The Force Awakens were perhaps less dynamic but were, in my opinion, more visceral and closer in tone to the ones featured in the original trilogy.

This is pretty much exactly what I said after I saw the movie. The Force Awakens lightsaber fights were my favorite so far. More visceral and fun to watch than the original trilogy, but not over-choreographed and lacking in dramatic intensity like the in the prequel trilogy. And it's a small thing, but the idea that one could inflict more minor wounds--just like in a real-life swordfight--was a great touch, whereas fights in Episode I-VI it was always clash-clash-clash for a looooong time followed by dismemberment or death.

Thats why I liked the fight between Dooku and Obi Wan in Episode 2, it was over quickly and Dooku ended it by inflicting relatively minor glancing wounds on Kenobi.

There's a line in the novelisation of Ep II that lays out that most Jedi are trained to fight people with blasters, but that Dooku is specifically trained to fight as a swordsman which is why he beats Kenobi.

Yeah after the fact Kenobi realizes the weaknesses of his lightsaber form and leans and masters form III, a purely defensive form between ep 2 and 3.

 

[IOwnTheSpire]

Exactly. The original films didn't have lightsabre fights, they had important plot and character moments in which the participants happened to be holding laser swords. The prequels had flashy ballet in which people we didn't know or care about failed to do or say anything much at all. How many words did the jedi exchange with Darth Maul in the entire Phantom Menace? Without watching it again to check, I'm pretty sure it's zero, and if not it's damn close. No-one killed or is anyone else's father, no-one's being called to turn to or reject temptation, no-one even knows who the bad guy is at all. Attack of the Clones was just as bad, the people involved in fights at least aren't mutes this time, but it's again characters we haven't been introduced to in any meaningful way fighting without any motivation other than "we're good guys and he isn't". Revenge was the only one that even attempted to do anything with the fights other than look flashy, and it's no coincidence that it's considered by far the best of the prequels. The fight between Vader and Obi-wan in Star Wars was objectively terrible, there was virtually no choreography at all, and what little there was was ruined by having the opponents be an old Shakespearean actor and a guy in suit who could barely move and see even less. But it's remembered more fondly than any fight from the prequels because it wasn't the swordplay and dance moves that were the important part.

Why does every lightsaber fight have to have emotion, plot, character, or subtext behind it? Why can't we see two or more people fight just because it's cool? What was the emotional weight of the fistfight that Indiana Jones had with the big bald German beneath the rotating plane in Raiders of the Lost Ark? Nothing, it was just fun and cool, and that's okay.

 

[Scow2]

Of course.. I bet that if Finn had had one of those cool energy-baton things in his fight with Ren, he'd have kicked that trumped-up sith-wannabe's ass.

However - lightsabers DID recieve some sort of serious nerf in these movies, given how hard it was for them to cut through bodies.

 

[Johnny Novgorod]

Oh he's just saying something to be funny and everybody starts dissecting it word for word...

 

[Reincarnatedwolfgod]

Well 2 out the 3 characters were not trained to use a lightsaber. The one who had any training at all was not fully trained. He had bunch factors notably hindering his fight ability and thus could not take take full advantage of his limited training.

If they looked very skilled a lightsaber users then it would feel out of place in this movie. Although in end the movie the force users are about to get training. I am expecting to see notable improvement in skill for any lightsaber duels in the next movie.

 

[RedRockRun]

I love Sam Jackson and all, but damn sometimes he says some stupid things. I heard him bring up midi-chlorians and how only Jedi can "turn on" lightsabers. smh

 

[Damian Porter]

The lightsaber fights in the prequels were garbage. They just looked way too choreographed and more like a dance routine than an actual fight.

 

[chocolate pickles]

Samuel Jackson doesn't know shit about ass.

TFA has the only good lightsaber scenes. The original fights were slowing and boring, and the prequels' too flashy. Finn/Rey vs Ren felt like an actual fight.

 

[Glongpre]

God between this and people bitching about Kylo not being as cool as Vader (LITERALLY THE ENTIRE FUCKING POINT OF HIS CHARACTER) I feel like 50% of those who went to see Force Awakens didn't watch the movie correctly.

How on earth do you fuck that up haha.

Dude, go onto imdb boards for a random movie and you will see people complain about plot points that are explained during the movie. It boggles my mind every time. People, eh?

Also, Mr. Windu is wrong. The fights were really good.
What really disappointed me was that the dudes from The Raid were lame. Could have been cool bounty hunters or something. Did they help with the fight choreography though?

 

[Clive Howlitzer]

I will have to completely disagree. I know some people prefer the overly choreographed dance routines but it puts me to sleep.

 

[Joccaren]

Yeah, I largely agree with Jackson, but its understandable that they're novices considering none of them have held a lightsaber before. Well, except Ren but he's not well trained.

But in terms of choreography... As they reach master stage, the choreography should increase. Its all well and good to have medieval broadsword fights... If I was watching Braveheart. I'm watching Star Wars, a show where Space Wizards duel each other. This movie, and the OT, really didn't sell me all that much on space wizard sword school. It was more like they used these things as a novelty, rather than because they were awesome, and that anyone could pick it up and be as effective with it as a weapon, with or without the force.

Say what you will about the prequels, but it at least didn't have that feeling. They felt like they could be an effective weapon - rapidly moving and being able to block numerous blaster shots, long distance throws to cut through enemies, instantly lethal and a great utility at close range, which the force was used to get into. And, of course, the force was ever present in the duels. Whether it was with lightning, pushes, jumps and flips - it felt like Space Wizards fighting each other.
Yeah, the choreography needs improvement. All the animated versions of lightsaber fights end up better than the prequels, as they're able to actually hit each other and do those insane moves without needing to cheese it, but that style of fighting is more visually impressive and entertaining than the, to quote a user from another thread, "Cripple vs old man" style of the OT.

That said, yeah, lightsaber duels need to be a bit less common, and a bit more personal - which they kind of have to be, now that there's only a handful of Jedi/Sith around and they all somewhat know each other. Merge the best of both styles, but the duels do need to get faster and more force-active as they get better at dueling.

 

[Basement Cat]

As a trained fencer I can't look at swordfights in movies as being realistic: They just aren't. Instead I just sit back and enjoy the spectacle without grumbling about telegraphed moves, etc.

This is why I can still enjoy the Darth Maul sword fight in TPM to this day.

That said I agree that the fights in TFA were more grounded and visceral. I agree that Rey, Ren, and Finn actually looked like they were trying to kill each other rather than perform a ballet. Folks have been pointing out that "Of course the fights look amateurish because they're being fought by actual amateurs whereas the fights in the prequels all involved 'trained professionals'".

So lets take a look a the quality of swordsmanship demonstrated by the "trained professionals".

Now lets look at a quick lesson on how to face such fighting styles in real life.

​

I get Mr. Jackson's point but I can't say that I agree. The choreographed "duels" in the prequels look exactly like what they are: choreographed "duels". The fights in TFA looked more like people scrapping. Different, yes, but lacking the silly/flashy stuff.

 

[lordmardok]

I actually don't agree with Jackson at all, for once. If anyone has ever watched a Kurosawa film like Seven Samurai, the fights are very very similar and, bear in mind, that those very films are what inspired lightsaber combat. They are supposed to be slow, steady, and measured. I really disliked how the prequels portrayed lightsaber duels as flashy and overwrought with a dozen swings of the blade per second. It was like what a twelve-year old would think a good sword fight is. Anyone with an ounce of experience in actual swordsmanship would tell you that's not even close to realistic.

That said, I understand that quoting 'realism' in a movie about future-past-galactic-space-wizards-with-laser-swords is kind of fruitless in some cases. Still, I liked the realism of the fights. It contrasts nicely with the bombastic setpieces. Only in star wars can you find a somber pair of warriors, each of distinct and ancient orders of war and schools of combat, circling each other and waiting for the perfect moment to strike, all while they're aboard a giant space ship with starfighters shooting each other to hell outside.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_pU6B2zEFeg&list=PLGKf-FbNKYAWjQ2N10Cjg2BaxWYoMmt-o

 

[Valkrex]

Agreed 100%. Say what you will about the prequels, but at least the light-saber fights in them were AMAZING to watch. The fight between Obi-Wan and Anakin was amazing to watch, and while I can understand not wanting to have a fight where Fin and Rey were on that skill level, this fight was just awful, slow, and boring to watch.