Samuel L. Jackson Thinks Force Awakens Actors Need "Lightsaber Fight School"

[Silverbeard]

I'm just trying to imagine Samuel L. Jackson watching Force Awakens in a theatre (that he owns because he's that fucking rich) and backseat choreographing the fights from his seat.

"No, muthafucka, backstep FIRST and THEN parry!"
"Dumbass! Lunge with your LEFT LEG before thrusting!"
"Sheeut! Dodging by ducking... DO A COMBAT ROLL, SHITFACE!!!"

Long live Master Windu, I suppose.

 

[LordLundar]

the fights in eps 4,5, and 6 were slow too.

Well that was technical reasons. The "lightsabers" at the time were photo tubes attached to the handles because the light effects were rotoscoped in after the effect and the photo tubes were the easiest to utilize. The problem is that they're very fragile so they couldn't swing them around very much. By contrast the sabers in the prequels were thin colored dowels which not only were lighter but more resilient.

 

[pookie101]

the fights were closer to the original flims which i prefered where as the prequels felt more like acrobats playing with lightsabers in the toy section of kmart

 

[Buizel91]

The thing I found most, shall we say annoying about the fights, is that when they swung the lightsabers, it looked like a broadsword. As in, it had a heavy heft to it. Lightsabers, lorewise, were so light and so unlike other melee weapons, that they took so long to master. I think they had it backwards in the movie, the swings were slow where they should have been fast. If they wanted to show inexperience they could have swung the blade too far, leaving themselves open.

TLDR: The swings should have been much faster for the weight of the weapon, they looked too slow.

Well actually there might be a very good reason for this.

That lore behind Kylo's lightsaber is that it uses a cracked Red Crystal, and it's Very unstable. Those Crossguards? Exhausts my friend, The crystal needs extra vents for the amount of power it unleashes, That's why they appear after the blade has been activated and not at the same time. Obviously this has it's uses, as we see when he is fighting Finn, But it obviously has it's draw backs as well.

It could just be that he doesn't want to break the thing, and so has been using a different style with his saber, it does look bigger than most, and because of the extra weight and the fact he has an unstable crystal in his saber, has chosen to wield it differently.

The saber and crystal is meant to reflect him, a broken man hiding behind a mask, making him appear more powerful and in control than he actually is.

 

[Buizel91]

Yah... because none of the people in this movie were trained by masters... the fights in eps 4,5, and 6 were slow too. Lightsaber dules are a "lost art" at this point. I actually thought the film did a great job of bridging the fights between the orig trig and prequels.

In fact, only one of the three lightsaber wielders have any prior experience with using a lightsaber and is also the only one who might have had any sort of formal training with them.

Only one person That we know of. There is a lot of theory going around that

Spoiler

Rey is a hidden padawan that survived Kylo Ren's purge

And thus might also have had training. Speculation I know, but it's a possibility, and your statement is definitely accurate based on the information provided in the movie by itself.

OT: Yes, please let's let them look entirely choreographed and fake like the fighting in Eps 1-3, good call Mr. Jackson. *rolls eyes*

Erm...What?

Spoiler

How old is Rey meant to be? Ep 7 is 30 years after ep 6, she looks nowhere near over 30!

 

[Kameburger]

Yup, completely agree with Jackson here. If you can't have a good lightsaber duel, don't have one at all.

For a highly choreographed dance routine... No, it wasn't very impressive.

For a fight to the death though, you could do way worse... like the Prequels.

You could do way worse with way superior-looking duels? That's an interesting oxymoron you got there.

I think he's saying, and I agree, that the prequel fights while at times fun and energetic. There was a campy, cartoonish element which undercuts the tension a bit ironically episode one's Darth Maul fight was the only one that felt like it had any stakes. While you could kind of rationalize it by saying that the Prequel trilogy Jedi were formally trained and polished so their technique was more graceful and fancy looking, the light saber duels had weight to them, and borrowed much more from episode 5 than anything else but added an element of realism and aggression to the action. Kylo was much more menacing than episode 3's Aniken simply because all his swings with his light saber had a presence, where as Aniken looked like he was swinging a toy and floating around.

 

[happyninja42]

Yah... because none of the people in this movie were trained by masters... the fights in eps 4,5, and 6 were slow too. Lightsaber dules are a "lost art" at this point. I actually thought the film did a great job of bridging the fights between the orig trig and prequels.

In fact, only one of the three lightsaber wielders have any prior experience with using a lightsaber and is also the only one who might have had any sort of formal training with them.

Only one person That we know of. There is a lot of theory going around that

Spoiler

Rey is a hidden padawan that survived Kylo Ren's purge

And thus might also have had training. Speculation I know, but it's a possibility, and your statement is definitely accurate based on the information provided in the movie by itself.

OT: Yes, please let's let them look entirely choreographed and fake like the fighting in Eps 1-3, good call Mr. Jackson. *rolls eyes*

Erm...What?

Spoiler

How old is Rey meant to be? Ep 7 is 30 years after ep 6, she looks nowhere near over 30!

This is pure speculation based on the flash of images in her vision but

Spoiler

We see an image of Kylo Ren and the Rentastics apparently murdering the padawans. This is established by other characters that he did this, and it's why Luke leaves. AFTER that scene is shown, we are shown a 6ish year old Rey being left behind on Jakku. For some people, myself included this implies she was a survivor of Ren's purge, and they secreted her away so he wouldn't kill her. And while the movie is 30 years later, that doesn't mean that Luke immediately started training kids after the credits rolled. It's perfectly feasible that he would have to spend several years looking for new recruits, finding a suitable training site, and then starting the training. The training likely went on for several years before Kylo Ren killed them. It's not like he showed up on the first day of jedi school and was like "lulz! I'mma kill all of you!" He'd clearly been training for a while.

 

[Buizel91]

Yah... because none of the people in this movie were trained by masters... the fights in eps 4,5, and 6 were slow too. Lightsaber dules are a "lost art" at this point. I actually thought the film did a great job of bridging the fights between the orig trig and prequels.

In fact, only one of the three lightsaber wielders have any prior experience with using a lightsaber and is also the only one who might have had any sort of formal training with them.

Only one person That we know of. There is a lot of theory going around that

Spoiler

Rey is a hidden padawan that survived Kylo Ren's purge

And thus might also have had training. Speculation I know, but it's a possibility, and your statement is definitely accurate based on the information provided in the movie by itself.

OT: Yes, please let's let them look entirely choreographed and fake like the fighting in Eps 1-3, good call Mr. Jackson. *rolls eyes*

Erm...What?

Spoiler

How old is Rey meant to be? Ep 7 is 30 years after ep 6, she looks nowhere near over 30!

This is pure speculation based on the flash of images in her vision but

Spoiler

We see an image of Kylo Ren and the Rentastics apparently murdering the padawans. This is established by other characters that he did this, and it's why Luke leaves. AFTER that scene is shown, we are shown a 6ish year old Rey being left behind on Jakku. For some people, myself included this implies she was a survivor of Ren's purge, and they secreted her away so he wouldn't kill her. And while the movie is 30 years later, that doesn't mean that Luke immediately started training kids after the credits rolled. It's perfectly feasible that he would have to spend several years looking for new recruits, finding a suitable training site, and then starting the training. The training likely went on for several years before Kylo Ren killed them. It's not like he showed up on the first day of jedi school and was like "lulz! I'mma kill all of you!" He'd clearly been training for a while.

OOOOOOOOH!

And here i thought you meant she survived Order 66!

I'm tired leave me alone! xD

 

[Aiddon_v1legacy]

I would say something...but that would require me to defend Star Wars and Disney, a decades-long franchise whose latest entry is breaking box office records daily and a multi-national company two steps away from a Shadowrun MegaCorp respectively. They do not need my (or anyone else's) defense.

 

[RealRT]

What duels? I didnt see any duels in the prequels.

Consult your local ophtalmologist about that.

They weren't superior-looking to me. More acrobatic, sure, but it looked like they were trying to impress each other with giant glowsticks. The fight in TFA looked like they were actually trying to kill each other with weapons.

Also, boring as fuck to watch.

I think he's saying, and I agree, that the prequel fights while at times fun and energetic. There was a campy, cartoonish element which undercuts the tension a bit ironically episode one's Darth Maul fight was the only one that felt like it had any stakes. While you could kind of rationalize it by saying that the Prequel trilogy Jedi were formally trained and polished so their technique was more graceful and fancy looking, the light saber duels had weight to them, and borrowed much more from episode 5 than anything else but added an element of realism and aggression to the action. Kylo was much more menacing than episode 3's Aniken simply because all his swings with his light saber had a presence, where as Aniken looked like he was swinging a toy and floating around.

First of all - "realism". By God, does it make me facepalm. We're watching superpowered space knights duke it out with energy swords. What realism are you talking about? Second, since when did "realistic" become synonymous with "good"? Reality sucks. That's why we use escapist entertainment. Third: it wasn't interesting to watch. In the prequels I can appreciate the complexity of choreography and the dexterity of performers. Here? Nothing of worth to look at.
Oh, by the way.
>added weight
It's an energy blade. It has no weight.

 

[Casual Shinji]

First of all - "realism". By God, does it make me facepalm. We're watching superpowered space knights duke it out with energy swords. What realism are you talking about? Second, since when did "realistic" become synonymous with "good"? Reality sucks. That's why we use escapist entertainment. Third: it wasn't interesting to watch. In the prequels I can appreciate the complexity of choreography and the dexterity of performers. Here? Nothing of worth to look at.

Realism or not, a fight should feel like a fight.

If you want the audience to be invested in a serious fight scene it's generally a good idea to have the participants feel like they're struggling to overcome whoever's opposing them. Whether it's two kids trying to judo-throw eachother, or two space deities going head to head. The Fellowship of the Ring had two old geezers knocking eachother about with magic force pushes, but despite how unrealistic it was you still felt the impact and the struggle behind that fight.

In the Prequels everyone just effortlessly does everything -- not just the Jedi/Sith -- without even a drop of sweat, until in the end someone loses and the "fight" is over.

Oh, by the way.
>added weight
It's an energy blade. It has no weight.

Weren't you the one saying realism sucks?

 

[RealRT]

First of all - "realism". By God, does it make me facepalm. We're watching superpowered space knights duke it out with energy swords. What realism are you talking about? Second, since when did "realistic" become synonymous with "good"? Reality sucks. That's why we use escapist entertainment. Third: it wasn't interesting to watch. In the prequels I can appreciate the complexity of choreography and the dexterity of performers. Here? Nothing of worth to look at.

Realism or not, a fight should feel like a fight.

If you want the audience to be invested in a serious fight scene it's generally a good idea to have the participants feel like they're struggling to overcome whoever's opposing them. Whether it's two kids trying to judo-throw eachother, or two space deities going head to head. The Fellowship of the Ring had two old geezers knocking eachother about with magic force pushes, but despite how unrealistic it was you still felt the impact and the struggle behind that fight.

In the Prequels everyone just effortlessly does everything -- not just the Jedi/Sith -- without even a drop of sweat, until in the end someone loses and the "fight" is over.

Oh, by the way.
>added weight
It's an energy blade. It has no weight.

Weren't you the one saying realism sucks?

Well, I guess we have a different idea of effort - in my book, everyone who goes though that many flips and parries and what not is putting quite a bit of effort in order to defeat their opponent.

Yeah, and it still does. What I was pointing out, is that even if we go with "REALISM" line, that argument doesn't work.

 

[Jeivar]

I think Jackson is missing the point.

The lightsaber fighting was one of the things I really liked about moving. It was slower, more believable and therefore more tense and dignified than the over-the-top wire-fu nonsense of the prequels. Look up reenactors sword-fighting on Youtube. It's not flashy acrobatics.

Also, y'know, Kylo had been freaking gutshot, and by the time he fought Rey his dominant arm was wounded as well.

 

[Kameburger]

I think he's saying, and I agree, that the prequel fights while at times fun and energetic. There was a campy, cartoonish element which undercuts the tension a bit ironically episode one's Darth Maul fight was the only one that felt like it had any stakes. While you could kind of rationalize it by saying that the Prequel trilogy Jedi were formally trained and polished so their technique was more graceful and fancy looking, the light saber duels had weight to them, and borrowed much more from episode 5 than anything else but added an element of realism and aggression to the action. Kylo was much more menacing than episode 3's Aniken simply because all his swings with his light saber had a presence, where as Aniken looked like he was swinging a toy and floating around.

First of all - "realism". By God, does it make me facepalm. We're watching superpowered space knights duke it out with energy swords. What realism are you talking about?

Maybe instead of "realism" I should use the word "believable" and that is to say that the weapons seem like weapons. Nothing seems foam covered a fake feeling. Sure the settings are just as fake, but the whole movie didn't feel like it was shot in a green screen playground where the characters are floating around each other like Team America-esque marionette puppets. I feel like I'm watching a story with stakes, not a dance with expensive glow sticks.

Second, since when did "realistic" become synonymous with "good"? Reality sucks. That's why we use escapist entertainment.

That's not really the point I'm making but again it goes back to my last point. Bouncy and colorful is fine if it matches the tone you're trying to go for, but the prequels made everything feel like a joke. And yes the bounciness suits all the over acted nonsense of that trilogy very well. But in this movie Dancing flashy light saber battles would have undermined the drama of what's going on. The awkward figure skating dance off we saw at the end of episode 3 only makes you look at this guy who just murdered a whole school full of children as a whiny spoiled teenager. While trying my best not to spoil episode 7, if you had one of those flashy wire fights immediately following the scene before it, I think you would end up with another confusing character. .

Third: it wasn't interesting to watch. In the prequels I can appreciate the complexity of choreography and the dexterity of performers. Here? Nothing of worth to look at.

Not gonna fight you there. It certainly wasn't the highlight of the movie that's for sure.

Oh, by the way.
>added weight
It's an energy blade. It has no weight.

Not the light saber, but the characters. The characters in the prequels literally felt like they were floating over a bunch of CGI sets (Cause they were). These characters at least didn't feel like they were attached to wires the whole freaking time. So misread what ever you want but I'm not talking about realism in the sense that anything is supposed to be realistic, but there has to be some level of immersion.

In conclusion I hope you didn't hurt yourself palming your face so hard.

 

[RealRT]

Maybe instead of "realism" I should use the word "believable" and that is to say that the weapons seem like weapons. Nothing seems foam covered a fake feeling. Sure the settings are just as fake, but the whole movie didn't feel like it was shot in a green screen playground where the characters are floating around each other like Team America-esque marionette puppets. I feel like I'm watching a story with stakes, not a dance with expensive glow sticks.

You DO know that, for example, Episode III had more practical sets than the whole OT combined, right?

That's not really the point I'm making but again it goes back to my last point. Bouncy and colorful is fine if it matches the tone you're trying to go for, but the prequels made everything feel like a joke. And yes the bounciness suits all the over acted nonsense of that trilogy very well. But in this movie Dancing flashy light saber battles would have undermined the drama of what's going on. The awkward figure skating dance off we saw at the end of episode 3 only makes you look at this guy who just murdered a whole school full of children as a whiny spoiled teenager. While trying my best not to spoil episode 7, if you had one of those flashy wire fights immediately following the scene before it, I think you would end up with another confusing character.

I fail to see how it is confusing if it was set up before. I don't even know what awkward figure skating dance you saw in there.
Somehow nobody complained about bouncy and over the top fights in Pirates of the Caribbean. Gee, wonder why's that.
Also, we did end up with one hot mess of a character. He's interesting, but... do we really want him redeem himself? I don't. He's not really likeable. Hell, he seemed far more like a whiny teen ot me. At least Anakin had some sympathetic motivation and backstory (also, in the dub that I always watch these movies in, he was voiced by an actual man).

Not the light saber, but the characters. The characters in the prequels literally felt like they were floating over a bunch of CGI sets (Cause they were). These characters at least didn't feel like they were attached to wires the whole freaking time. So misread what ever you want but I'm not talking about realism in the sense that anything is supposed to be realistic, but there has to be some level of immersion.

In conclusion I hope you didn't hurt yourself palming your face so hard.

These days, after Episode VII is out and all the legions of neckbeards who spent all the 2000s being far, far whinier than Hayden Christensen's voice could ever be, are now happy because a movie that caters to *their* tastes have finally came out (because it's basically OT all over again. I made a mistake of watching all six episodes prior to going to the Ep VII premiere and thus I was left with one two hour deja vu), I do it all the time. My face will be a bloody mess before Rogue One comes out.

 

[jklinders]

Two points here.

As was already said, none of the combatants were actually trained so they are going to be a fair bit more coarse.

The other point which was brought up was that the choreography in the prequels was way too practiced and artificial looking. Flynning to the n'th power. Looks cool at a glance but looking more closely from the perspective of someone wondering if the are actually trying to kill each other it looks very silly as most of the time they were aiming for each other's lightsaber rather than each other.

It 's this


vs this


In which of these does it look like they are actually trying to use those sharp things in their hands for their intended purpose?

And before anyone decides to get pedantic, I am fully aware of the very personal character related issues in Rob Roy driving the hate as well as the lack of personal involvement in each other's death in the Princess Bride scene. It's very hard to find examples of sword fighting in movies that avoids this whole trope of aiming for the sword rather than the person holding it.

Not really saying the Force Awakens nailed it either but it was a lot less artificial looking than any of the prequels.

 

[Kameburger]

Maybe instead of "realism" I should use the word "believable" and that is to say that the weapons seem like weapons. Nothing seems foam covered a fake feeling. Sure the settings are just as fake, but the whole movie didn't feel like it was shot in a green screen playground where the characters are floating around each other like Team America-esque marionette puppets. I feel like I'm watching a story with stakes, not a dance with expensive glow sticks.

You DO know that, for example, Episode III had more practical sets than the whole OT combined, right?

That's not really the point I'm making but again it goes back to my last point. Bouncy and colorful is fine if it matches the tone you're trying to go for, but the prequels made everything feel like a joke. And yes the bounciness suits all the over acted nonsense of that trilogy very well. But in this movie Dancing flashy light saber battles would have undermined the drama of what's going on. The awkward figure skating dance off we saw at the end of episode 3 only makes you look at this guy who just murdered a whole school full of children as a whiny spoiled teenager. While trying my best not to spoil episode 7, if you had one of those flashy wire fights immediately following the scene before it, I think you would end up with another confusing character.

I fail to see how it is confusing if it was set up before. I don't even know what awkward figure skating dance you saw in there.
Somehow nobody complained about bouncy and over the top fights in Pirates of the Caribbean. Gee, wonder why's that.
Also, we did end up with one hot mess of a character. He's interesting, but... do we really want him redeem himself? I don't. He's not really likeable. Hell, he seemed far more like a whiny teen ot me. At least Anakin had some sympathetic motivation and backstory (also, in the dub that I always watch these movies in, he was voiced by an actual man).

Not the light saber, but the characters. The characters in the prequels literally felt like they were floating over a bunch of CGI sets (Cause they were). These characters at least didn't feel like they were attached to wires the whole freaking time. So misread what ever you want but I'm not talking about realism in the sense that anything is supposed to be realistic, but there has to be some level of immersion.

In conclusion I hope you didn't hurt yourself palming your face so hard.

These days, after Episode VII is out and all the legions of neckbeards who spent all the 2000s being far, far whinier than Hayden Christensen's voice could ever be, are now happy because a movie that caters to *their* tastes have finally came out (because it's basically OT all over again. I made a mistake of watching all six episodes prior to going to the Ep VII premiere and thus I was left with one two hour deja vu), I do it all the time. My face will be a bloody mess before Rogue One comes out.

First off can we dial down the aggression a bit? I'm not even whining about the prequel trilogy just stating what I didn't like in comparison. That neck beard comment was really unnecessary.

Also I can't remember a single real set from episode 3, granted it's been a while but even so, it must be the least memorable of them. Despite that the prequel is supposed to tell the story of the rise of one of the most Classic menacing villains in film and still that never quite connects. Part of that is that this decidedly light hearted universe they made, makes every evil thing done in PT seem cartoonish. Pirates worked because everything in that world looked like it belongs there. The awkward to.igurr skating dance was the swashbuckling lava river adventure at the end of 3 where Anakin fights obiwan. That seen is them little rally floating over a 3D set peace. It really clashes with all the child murder literally in the scene right before.

Even speaking of character sympathy, Anakin has no sympathetic qualities what so ever, it's a story of him turning into a psychotic murderur because his work life gets in the way of his personal life. He's a guy who literally can't except the fact that people will die one day and decides to kill who ever it takes to stop that from happening. That's PT Anakin. Kylo Ren not with standing Anakin sucks as a character. He's either poorly written or poorly directed.

And I don't disagree with you, that sometimes fun to watch creative choreography is great, I'm just saying it should match the tone. And if you had to match a star wars trilogy's tone is chose OT over PT any day.

 

[Groxnax]

Lets see anyone fight correctly after going though emotional trauma, getting shot in the gut by an irate hairball with a gun that hits like a mule and then has to fight two pissed off lightsaber rookies, which only one was a Jedi.

It also depends on how well Kylo was trained before he went to the Dark Side and how well he was trained by his new master.

 

[RealRT]

First off can we dial down the aggression a bit? I'm not even whining about the prequel trilogy just stating what I didn't like in comparison. That neck beard comment was really unnecessary.

Also I can't remember a single real set from episode 3, granted it's been a while but even so, it must be the least memorable of them. Despite that the prequel is supposed to tell the story of the rise of one of the most Classic menacing villains in film and still that never quite connects. Part of that is that this decidedly light hearted universe they made, makes every evil thing done in PT seem cartoonish. Pirates worked because everything in that world looked like it belongs there. The awkward to.igurr skating dance was the swashbuckling lava river adventure at the end of 3 where Anakin fights obiwan. That seen is them little rally floating over a 3D set peace. It really clashes with all the child murder literally in the scene right before.

Even speaking of character sympathy, Anakin has no sympathetic qualities what so ever, it's a story of him turning into a psychotic murderur because his work life gets in the way of his personal life. He's a guy who literally can't except the fact that people will die one day and decides to kill who ever it takes to stop that from happening. That's PT Anakin. Kylo Ren not with standing Anakin sucks as a character. He's either poorly written or poorly directed.

And I don't disagree with you, that sometimes fun to watch creative choreography is great, I'm just saying it should match the tone. And if you had to match a star wars trilogy's tone is chose OT over PT any day.

I wasn't talking about you in particular, I was talking about people in general. Sorry for not clarifying that.
-
As for Anakin, he failed to save his mother from death because he didn't take the visions seriously back then and is now ready to do everything he can to prevent the same from happening to his wife, literally the only person who's dear to him and gets deceived by the schemer who literally orchestrated all of the events of the prequels into betraying all he was to save her... and then he ends up playing a part in her death anyway. A war hero who put his family before his duty and got shafted heavily for it. THAT is PT Anakin.

As for cartoonish tone that prequels ostensibly had while the OT was serious as balls: ewoks. That is all.