Satanic Temple Unveils Baphomet Statue For Oklahoma

[New Frontiersman]

The thing about it is that all they have to do is instead claim what the 10 Commandments are and then it won't be an issue any more. What are they? They are base historical teachings that are the foundation for modern day law. Get it? Basically it's an adorning replica that appreciates the basis for laws against murder, theft, false testimony, and so on. That's where our modern day laws come from and that's why they fit so appropriately without being simply labeled as a "a religious relic". If Oklahoma were to use this explanation for reasoning behind those sitting there, they can totally get away with it without giving in to a bunch of Satan worshipers trying to find a loophole to place a nutter statue in the lawn.

Except that our laws don't come from there. We have countless laws that either don't comply with or even contradict the Ten Commandments. Hell, the first four commandments are religious laws commanding followers to obey and respect god, something that's completely at odds with the concepts of both freedom of religion and freedom of speech that're enshrined in the United States Constitution. We also don't have laws against adultery or requiring children to respect their parents, both of which are commandments. Only the three commandments you specifically mentioned against killing, stealing and bearing false testimony have any basis in modern day law, and those rules have analogues in every existing culture, not just the ones that have used biblical law.

If we're putting up historical documents relating to the ancient origins of modern law why not put up the Twelve Tables or the Code of Hammurabi, both of which are sets of laws which were far more influential on our own?

It looks like some people have beaten me to this, but I thought might as well say it anyway.

The Baphomet itself is impressive and imposing, but it's the children that really sell it: You can almost see the rapturous joy on their faces as they gaze up at the fearsome visage of the Dark Lord Lucifer.

This is just me focusing way too much on semantics but Baphomet and Lucifer aren't the same person. I just felt I should put that out there.

 

[Someone Depressing]

It's beautiful, even if the reason why it exists is absoloutely insane.

I imagine this'll also raise hell in oh so many Christian communities, what with encouraging "Satanic behaviour and opposition to the Lord" and many other things that people of any religion will find offensive.

And it's going to be fun to watch.

 

[martyrdrebel27]

i'm seeing a surprising amount of positive feedback here. i love the idea, and that statue is badass. to really nail the message though, the satanic group should coordinate with people of other religions and get them to do the same thing, the same night, the same place. imagine a group of religious statues, representing all faiths, standing proudly next to the 10 commandments. the state would then be FORCED to face it's hypocrisy. either take them all down, or leave them all up, picking and choosing would cause the necessary shitstorm.

 

[Ukomba]

Religions equally doesn't cover trolling. Also not sure that this is the way to win public opinion.

 

[superstringz]

This is pretty ridiculous. If they were smart they would remove the monument with Ten Commandments on it. But this is probably gonna go sour.

Also, people need to stop confusing the Federal Separation of Church and State with the states rights to put whatever their legislation wants on their front lawns. That much quoted separation only applies to the Federal Government in the need to not enforce a state (read: federal) religion, as that is basically one of the factors that lead to initial declaration of separation from Britain. A state right (read: individual states)(the verbiage confuses most, it's just poorly thought out) technically preempts federal law. So, an individual state can do stuff like that without the need to worry about Church and States separation. You may not agree with it, but it's because of that very thing that states have started to legalize Marijuana, despite the Federal Governments complaints about it.

I also feel that while the Ten Commandments are Christian concept, they are representative of a system of laws. It's a state legislator building, they make laws, so it's not like it's something that should surprise anyone and it's certainly not an outlandish idea.. I haven't seen it but they don't have actual Christian symbols out there. No Jesus, no Mary, no Cross. People just freak out about this kind of thing. I would personally classify an image of someone's "God" of worship is not nearly the same thing.

WROOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOONG!
Seriously, we fought a war over this. The Federal constitution is the highest law of the land, superseding everything else. Anyone who says otherwise is a confederate sympathizer.

There is no constitutional amendment governing marijuana, which is why state laws take precedence.
When the 18th amendment (prohibition of alcohol) was established, it overrode any state laws to the contrary. Thats how the feds were able to enforce prohibition. When the 21st amendment passed repealing the 18th, it put alcohol laws back in the hands of states.

The separation of church and state is guaranteed by the constitution, which is why OK is treading thin ice with this.

 

[Baresark]

snip

I had a bunch of stuff to say here, but I'm gonna skip it. I'm going to ask you one question:

Where in the constitution does it say the federal government can dictate what goes out in front of a state legislative building?

 

[Baresark]

This is pretty ridiculous. If they were smart they would remove the monument with Ten Commandments on it. But this is probably gonna go sour.

Also, people need to stop confusing the Federal Separation of Church and State with the states rights to put whatever their legislation wants on their front lawns. That much quoted separation only applies to the Federal Government in the need to not enforce a state (read: federal) religion, as that is basically one of the factors that lead to initial declaration of separation from Britain. A state right (read: individual states)(the verbiage confuses most, it's just poorly thought out) technically preempts federal law. So, an individual state can do stuff like that without the need to worry about Church and States separation. You may not agree with it, but it's because of that very thing that states have started to legalize Marijuana, despite the Federal Governments complaints about it.

I also feel that while the Ten Commandments are Christian concept, they are representative of a system of laws. It's a state legislator building, they make laws, so it's not like it's something that should surprise anyone and it's certainly not an outlandish idea.. I haven't seen it but they don't have actual Christian symbols out there. No Jesus, no Mary, no Cross. People just freak out about this kind of thing. I would personally classify an image of someone's "God" of worship is not nearly the same thing.

WROOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOONG!
Seriously, we fought a war over this. The Federal constitution is the highest law of the land, superseding everything else. Anyone who says otherwise is a confederate sympathizer.

There is no constitutional amendment governing marijuana, which is why state laws take precedence.
When the 18th amendment (prohibition of alcohol) was established, it overrode any state laws to the contrary. Thats how the feds were able to enforce prohibition. When the 21st amendment passed repealing the 18th, it put alcohol laws back in the hands of states.

The separation of church and state is guaranteed by the constitution, which is why OK is treading thin ice with this.

Alright, for the sake of argument I'll say you are right. Tell me where in the constitution it states the federal government can dictate what goes in front of a legislative building. If you can tell me that, I'll cede all other points, no matter how I feel or what historical facts actually dictate.

 

[Nurb]

Hypocrites, all of them. The Ten Commandments shouldn't be allowed in the courthouse, it's not even a question. But using imagery created to attack common beliefs as a way to fight back against a faith you don't believe in because of the way it attacked common beliefs is a special kind of stupid.

Religion is supposed to make the world better by making people better, and though it often falls short of that goal, creating a religion to counter-proselytize dominant beliefs in an attempt to undermine, eliminate, and/or deconstruct said beliefs is trading an ass for a donkey. Mocking the ignorant won't change them, and is a self-destructive platform with which to forward your agenda with.

This gesture helps no one.

This gesture points out the idiocy of mixing religion and government.

If those Okie Fundies didn't act all stupid try to plant religious symbols on state property, this wouldn't even be an issue.

 

[Callate]

Part of me says I really shouldn't applaud silly people getting into a pissing contest with other silly people, all with the unspoken agenda of rubbing people's noses in things they find uncomfortable, if not deeply offensive.

But I would be lying if I didn't admit that another part of me was saying, "Well, the fundamentalist 'America is a Christian nation' folk started it, and if they didn't want to go here, they should have kept their monument off in the first place."

 

[Timedraven 117]

I think either Oklahoma should either A: Remove the current statue, or B: allow the Satanists to put up their own. Just on principle alone the local government should not even be questioning this, its government property (Yes it is government property, it represent the state, which represents the federal government) so they must allow it, and any stalling or such is pure incompetence on their part and refusal to hold up the US constitution.Its like Southern state leaders refusing to allow integration, and these people will be remembered as such if they don't do their jobs and solve this matter quickly and efficiently.

I mean if they actually did their jobs this could turn out to be a boon for their tourism if instead of refusing them allowed them and encouraged other religions to build statues to do as others said like making a garden with the various statues. I mean the one the Satanists have is pretty cool, not imagine if you had the Buddhist and Hindu statues which are pretty good looking as well. I would go to see it.

 

[superstringz]

Alright, for the sake of argument I'll say you are right. Tell me where in the constitution it states the federal government can dictate what goes in front of a legislative building. If you can tell me that, I'll cede all other points, no matter how I feel or what historical facts actually dictate.

Any legal argument is going to be lengthy, so prepare yourself (this is the TLR version btw)
First thing to know: Supreme court interprets what is constitutional
Second thing to know: Schools are run by the state

Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances.

This was interpreted to mean by the SC that tax-supported property for religious instruction and the close cooperation between the school authorities and the religious council violated the Establishment clause." +1 point for Feds Constitution overruling state
No gov't had authority to censor over religious feelings +1 point for Feds Constitution overruling state
Faith is never required by any gov't employee, federal or state
That no, the state *really* didn't have the authority to hold or implicitly endorse any sort of religion
And a handy way of telling if something is unconstitutional
All of this goes to prove that the establishment clause of the U.S. constitution absolutely does forbid religious endorsement from any government local, state or federal.

 

[mitchell271]

Good, it's about time the Great Lord of Light had statues placed in the open. That's definitely a step in the left direction.

I see what you did there.

Hypocrites, all of them. The Ten Commandments shouldn't be allowed in the courthouse, it's not even a question. But using imagery created to attack common beliefs as a way to fight back against a faith you don't believe in because of the way it attacked common beliefs is a special kind of stupid.

The point of the monument is to show two things. One, that there are religions other than various sects of Christianity and that the state should recognize them. Second, it shows that Satanism (in this case, Lavey Satanism) isn't about ritualistic sacrifice, needing the blood of a Catholic virgin, etc., it's still a religion about furthering yourself while trying to aid those that think they know better (e.g. the cardinal sin is willful ignorance). This is the exact reason they didn't commission a giant middle finger with pentagrams everywhere.

We didn't want to just put up a massive upside-down cross with a middle finger. We were trying to come up with something more cohesive. We get comments all the time that "I don't believe what you believe." And that's the exact point. A lot of people don't believe what we believe. We want to put it up to show the duality of our nation. Not everyone in this country is a Christian. There are Buddhists, Muslims, atheists...

 

[michael87cn]

An idol is an idol, regardless of where it comes from... to those of us that believe in God, statues of any kind are a no-no. You don't need a molded image to believe in God, and if you do, you believe in that image instead.

I wouldn't be surprised if this gets destroyed relatively quickly by people that take this kind of thing seriously.

And yes, I do believe that idols of jesus are a no-no as well.

 

[sc1arr1]

That statue looks fantastic! No matter what happens, that statue needs to be put up SOMEWHERE.

 

[Boba Frag]

An idol is an idol, regardless of where it comes from... to those of us that believe in God, statues of any kind are a no-no. You don't need a molded image to believe in God, and if you do, you believe in that image instead.

I probably shouldn't even be doing this, but I guess that means we can't be friends as I'm a Catholic and iconography can be part of how we worship the Lord, but that's an argument that's been had for hundreds of years.
I certainly don't worship any statues of Christ, but I might pray in their vicinity.

I wish you all the best & congratulate you in sharing your thoughts on forums that are less than friendly to any Christians, regardless of denomination.
That's something I find it very hard to do lately.

Shame, really.

In any case, back on topic!
Can't say I'd be thrilled to see that statue go up in my home town in Ireland, but that'd be incredibly unlikely for a variety of reasons.

I'd also like to point out that separating the church & state is a good thing in my book.

Too much damage can be done if they're not legally separate.

Would I like to see several religions represented instead of just one?
Of course, it takes all sorts to make a community and every citizen should be represented by their government.

Anyway, those are my two cents.

Certainly a heated debate going in here, and surprisingly civil compared to what I have to say I was expecting

 

[Neeckin]

Man, I just wen to looked up if Satanism had commandments or anything, jus look at these
1. Do not give opinions or advice unless you are asked.
2. Do not tell your troubles to others unless you are sure they want to hear them.
3. When in another?s lair, show him respect or else do not go there.
4. If a guest in your lair annoys you, treat him cruelly and without mercy.
5. Do not make sexual advances unless you are given the mating signal.
6. Do not take that which does not belong to you unless it is a burden to the other person and he cries out to be relieved.
7. Acknowledge the power of magic if you have employed it successfully to obtain your desires. If you deny the power of magic after having called upon it with success, you will lose all you have obtained.
8. Do not complain about anything to which you need not subject yourself.
9. Do not harm little children.
10. Do not kill non-human animals unless you are attacked or for your food.
11. When walking in open territory, bother no one. If someone bothers you, ask him to stop. If he does not stop, destroy him.