Scott Cawthon (FNaF guy) cancelled

Trunkage

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Were they filtering that idea through the lens of race or not?
No Idea. I'm pretty sure they WERE filtering learning though the lens of children being on an assembly line, reading to be factory sealed for the workplace. All that matters is the answer. Who cares you if got the brains or can work things out

Edit: I'm also talking about Australia here. So the flippant 'no idea' is a definite no. I am aware that other countries had similar problems but not conscious of what the argument was exactly and their proposed solution
 
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Trunkage

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Do I need to point out MLK was speaking in the past when there was very much segregation happening in the USA and while there are issues in the present things have changed.

The present isn't perfect but the way people talk you'd think the Gestapo were walking down the streets dragging POCs from their homes. When you focus on race and create race based inequalities by doing so then how is that solving the problem when you could focus on other factors that people keep saying most greatly impact POC and you'd get the same result only it would also help some poor white folks too?

You want to tell me how as an example trying to imply anyone who didn't by the $50 a month "Ally box" or whatever it was called, is a white supremacist helps anything? At some stage people have to realise attacking and trying to shame people for refusing to go along with whatever will fail and it will cost people those who could well be on their side because "Oh if I don't agree with you 100% and do 100% of what you want 100% of the time then you'll just throw the same shaming tactics and insults anyway so what is the god damned point when there is never a point where it's enough"

Also I never said he'd censor people for using the term African American. He'd probably be far more concerned and unhappy with the "soft racism" of low expectations based on race. We shouldn't be seeing things like diversity hires and lowering of college entry requirements based on race.
Just wanna ask. Why do you think ally exist?
 

Dwarvenhobble

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Because I don't like lies and people try to take others out over perceived slight just because they misinterpret things. You know, a lot of the basis of cancel culture
Well you could ask Anita to clarify if it truly is as it appear her position is but like many people if she suspects it will be bad for her expect no answer or Weasel Words.

Those who aren't trying to hide something and don't have some hidden agenda are generally fine clarifying their position or restating it more clearly if there has been a misunderstanding.
 

Dwarvenhobble

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Just wanna ask. Why do you think ally exist?
Why Ally Box exists?

Because some people saw an easy way to get idiots to pay $50 a month or more to try and assuage their guilt at being white and also well off?

As far as anyone knows the money wasn't going into some organisation helping people it was going into the creator pockets because their logic was they are Black people so they're owed the money.

I mean it's more common an attitude than you'd think unfortunately


It's about people getting their "Bread" however they can it seems.
 

Dwarvenhobble

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"Ha! I found one person working the movement I don't like for their own personal gain! That's proof that it's all a scam!"
Well I've pointed to two so far actually.

How about I point to a 3rd?


 

TheMysteriousGX

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You're getting it backwards. The point is that just because you should shower and brush your teeth and go to work, that doesn't mean you should listen to anyone who tells you to.

Here's a concrete real world example: Jordan Peterson tells people to clean their rooms. Cleaning your room is a good thing. Imagine if people here were criticizing Jordan Peterson, and my defense was just to insist "he tells people to clean their rooms, so he's not all bad" and then ignore the stuff people are criticizing.
Aka, exactly the normal Jordan Peterson defense?

Like, I think the guy is a nutcase, but in his brief moments of lucidity he does, occasionally, have a few good self-help ideas.

But you are confusing argument for conclusion. You are arguing that these ideas on how to teach math are bad ideas because of how the educators got to them. I'm arguing that these educators ideas on how to teach math are good ideas regardless of the logic that got them there.

If Jordan Peterson's insane ramblings about dragons, chaos, and lobsters ended at the conclusion of "so clean your room", he'd be an internet funnyman very few people would have a problem with and I'd probably be recommending his deeply weird self-help work. Problem with Peterson is he doesn't just stop at "clean your room", now does he?
 

Seanchaidh

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In what way is that not comparable to the topic at hand?
Seems like that was answered already...
You are arguing that these ideas on how to teach math are bad ideas because of how the educators got to them. I'm arguing that these educators ideas on how to teach math are good ideas regardless of the logic that got them there.
 

Trunkage

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Why Ally Box exists?

Because some people saw an easy way to get idiots to pay $50 a month or more to try and assuage their guilt at being white and also well off?

As far as anyone knows the money wasn't going into some organisation helping people it was going into the creator pockets because their logic was they are Black people so they're owed the money.

I mean it's more common an attitude than you'd think unfortunately


It's about people getting their "Bread" however they can it seems.
Did you read the question? Pretty sure that's not what I asked

If you want to talk about ally boxes only because you just cant talk about other things while you're fixated. Sure.

If you haven't noticed, we live in a Capitalist system. When something new becomes acceptable, there's the Capitalist out to make money from it. Did you noticed how there was big buff guys in 80s movies? It's because there was a change in societies definition of masculine. The new, improved masculine had to be the face of every movie. Noticed how there wasn't much colour in kids clothes before the 80s? It's because some Capitalist realised you could just clap pink and blue onto everything and sell toys twice, one for each gender.

Unfortunately, because we live in a Capitalist society, to be accepted, you have to be monetizable. The gritters will come in and make their bread to. Say what you will about people how followed the movement but MAGA got monetized. Grifters gotta make bank out of movements

As to 'it's more common than you think'. Probably not. Every angle has its people grifting. Anti-vaxxers, eco-warriors, vegans, the MMS maniacs.

Well I've pointed to two so far actually.

How about I point to a 3rd?


Don't know if you know this but they are very different movements. And I'm pretty sure this was not the only person dismissed in disgrace over BLM. I also think that the Oregon Mum's organiser was being forced out as she wasnt turning up and just do Instaphoto. The people who took over the Ribs place at the marches was pocketing money as well
 

Trunkage

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Well you could ask Anita to clarify if it truly is as it appear her position is but like many people if she suspects it will be bad for her expect no answer or Weasel Words.

Those who aren't trying to hide something and don't have some hidden agenda are generally fine clarifying their position or restating it more clearly if there has been a misunderstanding.
Or.. and hear me out... you could. Instead of blaming and shaming. I'm not the one offended by it and I'm not the one trying to use her as a prop to say a bunch of people are bad

Oh wait. Too late. You're back on the blaming and shaming. Just gotta keep going with the hate train. Chugga Chugga
 

Dwarvenhobble

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Did you read the question? Pretty sure that's not what I asked

If you want to talk about ally boxes only because you just cant talk about other things while you're fixated. Sure.

If you haven't noticed, we live in a Capitalist system. When something new becomes acceptable, there's the Capitalist out to make money from it. Did you noticed how there was big buff guys in 80s movies? It's because there was a change in societies definition of masculine. The new, improved masculine had to be the face of every movie. Noticed how there wasn't much colour in kids clothes before the 80s? It's because some Capitalist realised you could just clap pink and blue onto everything and sell toys twice, one for each gender.

Unfortunately, because we live in a Capitalist society, to be accepted, you have to be monetizable. The gritters will come in and make their bread to. Say what you will about people how followed the movement but MAGA got monetized. Grifters gotta make bank out of movements

As to 'it's more common than you think'. Probably not. Every angle has its people grifting. Anti-vaxxers, eco-warriors, vegans, the MMS maniacs.
I read the question. I figured I you meant allybox as that was where this tangent had got to as I don't really see where the idea of being an ally becomes relevant especially with the more modern use of it which is mostly "Sit down, shut up, give us money, run into danger for us and be human shields."

Big Buff guys in 80s movies (and before that actually) is because they found it very much appealed to women specifically. A demographic who rightly or wrongly were seen as more likely to be willing to spend money on things including going to see films.

You're right about Maga being monitised though how successful it was I couldn't really tell you.

Then again so was the Democrat side. I.E. the Nerds For Her merchandise

CyH3rz3W8AATq7i.jpg

Hell if you want to play grift vs grift I mean I can name a few pretty high profile (thanks to the attention they got) Kick-starter campaigns that haven't delivered anything of the promised rewards yet lol.

It's far easier these day to actually successfully grift one one than the other. Grifting the Maga lot you actually have to deliver something even if it's crap.


Don't know if you know this but they are very different movements. And I'm pretty sure this was not the only person dismissed in disgrace over BLM. I also think that the Oregon Mum's organiser was being forced out as she wasnt turning up and just do Instaphoto. The people who took over the Ribs place at the marches was pocketing money as well
Oh there's a lot of BLM's like there was 2 different Bail Fund groups and one walked away with a lot of money from that too.
Both sides have their grifters but it's amazing to me to see how it's almost unacceptable to call out one side and thestuff there without people turning round and trying to label those critical as monsters of some kind because "It's in the name of good" or whatever. Meanwhile you'll probably not see much backlash for calling out the Freedom Phone for being the overpriced poorly thought out BS that it appears to very much be.
 
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Hawki

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I already addressed this in brief: it is an improvement to adapt the classroom for what you hope the pupils are interested in and I agree it poses some risk of making unsafe assumptions, but you can also just find out direct from the pupils by finding out what they are interested in. I would not be surprised if there aren't some (and potentially a surprisingly large number) teachers who have no interest in what their pupils like. They want to teach X in this way, and so it will be done, even if it decreases the engagement of 90% of their pupils. (I am frequently amazed at many teachers' disregard for their pupils I hear from others.)
Your average teacher is going to have somewhere between 20 and 30 students. They're not going to be able to adjust their teaching style for each of those students.

Thing is, finding out what your students are interested in is a good idea, but what your students are interested in is a point of relevance that's going to vary wildly by subject. In primary and secondary school, I could give you a list of lots of stuff I was interested in, that doesn't make that stuff a solid foundation for education.

You appear to be talking about an English class here. At an early age, leaving the kids free to choose to get the books they read to help develop interest in reading seems suitable, but there's clearly a point where they need to read works of appropriate complexity. Again, it should be possible for a teacher to know what interests a class and select works that may be more likely to interest them. In later years, demands for state-level exams will normally mean a much more limited number of set texts on a syllabus due to the need for state/national exams.
I agree that kids should be able to read what they want on their own time. That would include stuff like school libraries, which would (at least in my experience) have no shortage of work that couldn't be considered literary. And I also agree that it might be a good idea to allow kids to choose some assigned texts to a point. For instance, in secondary school, there was at least one instance where we were given a list of books available in the library, we got to choose one, and had to write a book report. However, again, not sure how the teacher can select words themselves for a class of 20-30 people. And you're especially at a dead end if the student in question simply isn't interested.

Variety of texts is a good idea. Giving kids free reign to read what they want? Eh...I have a fairly solid inkling of what "kids these days" are into via library work, and while that isn't necessarily disrepaging that work, not sure I'd assign it as required reading.

If we take a simple idea of an education system as a power structure: syllabus design through to teachers to pupils, then societal attitudes pour through the system from the top down. Disrupting that and giving more say to those at the bottom (pupils) could reasonably reduce the deliberate or neglectful imposition of societal attitudes suspected to be unhealthy.
Yeah, I've seen students having 'power.' Usually it means that the teacher has lost control. Which doesn't work for anyone. It makes the teacher's life hell, and makes the lives of the students who want to learn much more difficult.
 

Dwarvenhobble

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Or.. and hear me out... you could. Instead of blaming and shaming. I'm not the one offended by it and I'm not the one trying to use her as a prop to say a bunch of people are bad

Oh wait. Too late. You're back on the blaming and shaming. Just gotta keep going with the hate train. Chugga Chugga
I could but at one point Anita misrepresented something I'd written pretty badly on stage and implied she wished she could sue me for it (for those who wish to look it up it's one of the XOXO fest videos with her giving a talk). So I'm not exactly in a "giving Anita the benefit of the doubt" kind of place when the last time I gave her some benefit of the doubt she chose to ignore it entirely and instead spin the thing to her uncritical audience. So yeh it's not just a case of video where she could be either mis-informed or actually deliberately misleading it's more direct stuff about how she's mislead in the past or tried to spin stuff. As another example.



 

Dwarvenhobble

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*About teachers adapting lessons*
About Teachers adapting lessons*
As some-one who has done the basic teacher training and thus gone through the theories and learned about various ideas and learning theories and approaches. I actually have some input here that might be relevant.

Generally in education there are cycles of ideas being tried and what Agema is suggesting has been tried in multiple incarnations be it "Discovery learning" or more recently under the label of "Self directed learning". In theory it relates back to the learning theories of Lev Vygotsky and his zone of proximal development which is explained via the concept of Meno's slave where Socrates helps demonstrate one of his friends slave's innate ability to learn and reason out geometric principals.

Part 1 of reply
 

Dwarvenhobble

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Part 2 of reply cause forum was being weird


The idea being the teacher needs to be hands on enough to direct the class to discovery but hands off enough to allow the discovery to be found on it's own to aid understanding of it and the reasoning for it. The issue being just how hands off the process goes. In the long gone past my Uncle for a while was taught under a Science Syllabus based on self directed learning where the teacher wasn't meant to tell the class anything. It was a resounding failure because there need to be some level of input for things to work and pupils to know what they're looking for and be given more direction. The issue being there's still some in teaching who very much beleiev in another part of Vygotsky's theory that people learn from peers far better than authority figures thus some people wanting to greatly lessen the actual teaching and direction done by teachers and instead pushing for Pupils to discover and reason things out among themselves. Now on the off chance that the huge flaw in thishas passed anyone by it basically has the issue that if no-one or not enough people in the class realising it and reasoning out the discovery then things grind to a halt and this is where the teacher would normally help things along more.

So yeh in terms of giving pupils some level of control there is that but from my own experiences it's mostly fake, you make them think they have some level of control over some stuff but have them basically agreeing to stuff you already wanted while giving allowances for things you already had planned to give allowances for or have not choice but to give allowances for.

The rest though well class behaviour and controlling it was something they never properly teach and push this "You'll develop your own style" or the hippy dippy idea of "Well bad behaviour will never happen if your lessons are interesting enough" which BTW is total bullshit. The big secret in teaching that people don't tell you in training and you'll only find out from actual teachers is psychological warfare tactics. I wish I was joking, I mean full on like military recruit control and breaking ideas adapted for use in schools. The books that tell you how to do this are the "Getting the Buggers to Behave" series and trust me Agema would be shocked and just how much the reinforce the societal expectations and positions.

I went into teaching as "I'll be the teacher who is different, who helps their pupils and makes things easy for them" as an example I used to hate teachers forcing other pupils to do this long walk to the bin to spit out gum, when I started out if I caught some-one chewing I took the bin over to them, it was quicker and in my mind easier that wasting time with a sulking pupil dragging themselves over to the bin. Only then I noticed it wasn't causing people to change their ways and I kept catching the same people chewing and others were starting it too. Eventually I tried one of the techniques from the book of forcing the pupil to walk over to the bin and standing imposingly near them as they lower their head slightly to spit out the gum. It worked. Within less then 2 weeks basically everyone was spitting their gum out at the start of lessons without prompting or not coming with gum in their mouth to the lesson. I tried similar techniques and I turned a trouble maker into a well behaved pupil so much so I even got a written apology from him (unprompted too). There's a lot of showing what you can do and reinforcing the societal structure in the classroom in terms of actually controlling a class and being an effective teacher.

In terms of Agema's suggestion about finding out what the class is into this is something that's suggested but It's more a case of getting lucky and hoping you're not that out of touch and that the class has enough of a homogenous make up of interest that there are some common ones. I taught 4 very different classes and I managed to appeal to 1 class for 1 lesson and 1 class I managed to appeal to (in my opinion) regularly with good success. Though teachers mostly have to rely on getting lucky. I did because somehow in a class that was 60-70% teenage girls I was able to explain things using things they were interested in which I oddly was also into or knew enough about. For the record those things were Grand Theft Auto and Grant Theft Auto Online, Game of Thrones, Supernatural, My Chemical Romance and Greenday.......... yes really and I don't know who was more shocked me finding I was somehow really not out of touch or them having their teacher reference the lead Singer of My Chemical Romance to explain the mechanics of chemical reactions.

The problem being unless you get lucky and get big well known things that endure the test of time or things you're into or can have learned about by "cultural Osmosis" e.g. The Cake is a Lie, Vote Pedro (though I think that's falling off a lot), Darmok and Jalad at Tanagra, Sweep the Leg, etc etc then you end up stuck as tastes and things people enjoy are constantly changing and keeping up for a teacher would be impossible realistically. I mean one class I taught had groups of people into the following: Football, old G.I.Joe comics (apparently a local trend due to some shop in town having / finding it had a stock of them), The Only way is Essex and the works of Jane Austin and there was no cross over between the groups not even the a little bit with the Towie and Jane Austin groups. I couldn't find a universal "Touchstone" to use that all of them would know or at least be aware of enough through cultural osmois to be able to adapt lessons to reference said things. You don't really have the time to learn a new trend every year or so just to keep the classes interest as they will know if you're not really into it and have just done some surface level looking into it. They can smell it a mile away and if they ask you questions when class is over about the thing and you won't be able to fake your way out through pretending to know.
 

Agema

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Your average teacher is going to have somewhere between 20 and 30 students. They're not going to be able to adjust their teaching style for each of those students.
So if they can't individualise everything then they should make no concessions whatsoever to their pupils, then - my way or the highway? Is that what you're arguing?

Thing is, finding out what your students are interested in is a good idea, but what your students are interested in is a point of relevance that's going to vary wildly by subject. In primary and secondary school, I could give you a list of lots of stuff I was interested in, that doesn't make that stuff a solid foundation for education.
Take a classic early years maths construction like "John has two apples and Anne gives him another three apples. How many apples does John have now?". Why not just ask "What is two plus three?"

This framing gives a young child a mental visualisation to base the abstract notion of two plus three around; this may help them answer the question intrinsically, and also engage them in the task (engagement also helping them answer it). This principle of contextualising knowledge and problems to assist learners rolls all the way on to higher education: the ability to create reference points and context that engage and inform a learner can be a powerful technique. Once that principle is accepted, the obvious thing to do is to pick situations that provide maximum engagement and/or information - which a teacher most likely achieve if they have some idea what their students are into. This sort of thing can be applied incredibly widely.

There are of course limitations: it is probably hard to shoehorn a student's interest in science fiction into a history class. But if the sum of your argument here is that limitations exist, it is an extraordinarily weak argument.

Yeah, I've seen students having 'power.' Usually it means that the teacher has lost control. Which doesn't work for anyone. It makes the teacher's life hell, and makes the lives of the students who want to learn much more difficult.
You have a very limited understanding of power if you cannot conceive of it in an educational setting beyond school discipline and classroom authority.
 

Hawki

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So if they can't individualise everything then they should make no concessions whatsoever to their pupils, then - my way or the highway? Is that what you're arguing?
Of course not. Surely we can agree that either extreme is bad.

I guess what I'd argue for is a set curiculum that covers a variety of texts, while having part of that curiculum having the students choosing their own texts.

Take a classic early years maths construction like "John has two apples and Anne gives him another three apples. How many apples does John have now?". Why not just ask "What is two plus three?"

This framing gives a young child a mental visualisation to base the abstract notion of two plus three around; this may help them answer the question intrinsically, and also engage them in the task (engagement also helping them answer it). This principle of contextualising knowledge and problems to assist learners rolls all the way on to higher education: the ability to create reference points and context that engage and inform a learner can be a powerful technique. Once that principle is accepted, the obvious thing to do is to pick situations that provide maximum engagement and/or information - which a teacher most likely achieve if they have some idea what their students are into. This sort of thing can be applied incredibly widely.

There are of course limitations: it is probably hard to shoehorn a student's interest in science fiction into a history class. But if the sum of your argument here is that limitations exist, it is an extraordinarily weak argument.
Those seem to be two different things - representing numbers through objects, and trying to prick students' interests through different subjects.
 

Agema

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Of course not. Surely we can agree that either extreme is bad.
Okay, so we can accept that tailoring context and framing education towards the interests of pupils is a good thing, within limitations of resources and possibility. So there's not a problem here.

Those seem to be two different things - representing numbers through objects, and trying to prick students' interests through different subjects.
Yes. Achieved by the same device.