Scythes in Games

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StBishop

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Souplex said:
We've been over this before; Scythes are a poor choice for a weapon, and those who think otherwise have poor opinions.
http://www.escapistmagazine.com/forums/read/18.70517-Scythes#694172
It's good to see my opinion stated so well for me.

I think they're just bad. Not impractical (although they are) but just a bad decision.

Not awesome, not badass, not cool, not creepy, just fucking dumb.
 

Riddle78

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Real world? The blade's position on the scythe makes if very impractical for combat,when also considering the size of the thing. Now,if you removed the blade,rotated it backwards 90 degrees...THEN you have a somewhat practical scythe. But a halberd is the same size,if not longer,and hives you more options.

So...All in all,the scythe looks nasty,but anyone who knows jack about melee combat knows a good old fashioned broadsword will do you better.
 

Dragonpit

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Oh, good grief. Been down this road before. So yeah. Here's the thing.

Scythes. Large weapons. Slow and hard to use. Not for mid-ranged attacking. Strictly close combat. Very powerful in terms of cutting power. Requires a special kind of swing. Must be used to bring your opponents closer, into range.

I ended up discussing this at length with a friend of mine about a year ago and these are all the conclusions we came up with about the scythe. It's not so much impractical so much as it is unusual.

EDIT: I should mention right now that using examples of scythes used in combat in video games is not a good way to support the idea that they can be used in actual combat. Truth be told, they are actually not being swung properly more often than not. Plus, looking badass doesn't really help their case in terms of practicality.
 

hermes

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- Death is a boss in most Castlevania games. Of course, he uses a scythe...
- War in Darksiders...
- Some character can use scythes in Dragon Quest.

Scythes are mostly rules be the rule of cool... They look nice, but are among the most impractical objects to be used as weapons.
 

Cenequus

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Scythes we're my fav weapon in NWN2.I was dual wielding them,2d4 x4 crit is big number damage.
 

kitolz

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Jabberwock xeno said:
kitolz said:
ryo02 said:
Dan DePuy said:
The thing is, if both edges of a Scythe are sharpended, it's a pretty unpredcatble weapon.

You can hook and grab the edges of armor, sheilds, and swords, twist and hook to pull them away, or hit the opponents body from odd angles.
While it's true you can hit the body from odd angles, you'd be telegraphing your move when you pull back to swing. The blade of a scythe is heavy, and unbalanced. If you try to change the direction of the swing to confuse your opponent, you're liable to slip your grip, or just fail to alter the direction completely.

And the work you linked is a fascinating read (I can't read german, but the pretty pictures help). But even with their demonstrations, it still seems like the scythe is inferior to any other contemporary weapon of that period. Just take off the blade, fight with the stick. You'd get faster strikes, and parry easier. Certainly easier than that fool trying to swing around the scythe.
 

Jabberwock xeno

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kitolz said:
Jabberwock xeno said:
kitolz said:
ryo02 said:
Dan DePuy said:
The thing is, if both edges of a Scythe are sharpended, it's a pretty unpredcatble weapon.

You can hook and grab the edges of armor, sheilds, and swords, twist and hook to pull them away, or hit the opponents body from odd angles.
While it's true you can hit the body from odd angles, you'd be telegraphing your move when you pull back to swing. The blade of a scythe is heavy, and unbalanced. If you try to change the direction of the swing to confuse your opponent, you're liable to slip your grip, or just fail to alter the direction completely.

And the work you linked is a fascinating read (I can't read german, but the pretty pictures help). But even with their demonstrations, it still seems like the scythe is inferior to any other contemporary weapon of that period. Just take off the blade, fight with the stick. You'd get faster strikes, and parry easier. Certainly easier than that fool trying to swing around the scythe.
About your first point, this is true.

At the same time, though, hailbreds are just as heavy (though more balenced)

I don't see a mass of forces using a normal scythe, but I can see how a indivual who has been farming with one their entire life be able to use one effectively as a weapon.

Personally, I think it'd be VERY effective if you were to shorten the overall size of the weapon a bit, but curve the blade so it hooks more and the tip is pointing outware a a little.

This would reduce the weight, but still keep the range.
 

kitolz

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Jabberwock xeno said:
kitolz said:
Jabberwock xeno said:
About your first point, this is true.

At the same time, though, hailbreds are just as heavy (though more balenced)

I don't see a mass of forces using a normal scythe, but I can see how a indivual who has been farming with one their entire life be able to use one effectively as a weapon.

Personally, I think it'd be VERY effective if you were to shorten the overall size of the weapon a bit, but curve the blade so it hooks more and the tip is pointing outware a a little.

This would reduce the weight, but still keep the range.
Yep, that's a sensible approach to it, and precisely the adjustments applied to create the Dacian Falx and War Scythes. It made the blade more balanced, made it easier to dismember.

The balance and reach of the halberds were huge factors in effectiveness. You can use it like a spear, the weight giving it more force to punch through armor. The reach of the weapon makes it easier to hook riders in an attempt to dismount them. Sadly these 2 primary features are missing in the traditional scythe.
 

otakon17

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I'll be honest I've always like Halberds myself. But Scythes do have a certain "intimidation" factor inundated from association with the "Grim Reaper" that most people recognize as the anthropomorphic form of death.
 

Aprilgold

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kitolz said:
Aprilgold said:
To be honest, there needs to be a zombie game to where you play as Death, that would certainly be enough Scythe action for me.
My god, yes! You would play as Death, discovering one day that mortals have been dabbling with the supernatural and have interrupted the ancient cycle of life and death. And it's up to you to deal with this shit and restore the natural order of things. I'm not sure why this hasn't been made yet.
Its sales point, kill things in over 1,000 DIFFERENT WAYS! Get new robes for death, from a pink robe to a molten lava robe! PRE ORDER BONUS GIVES YOU LEVELS BASED OFF OF REAL WORLD LOCATIONS!
 

Lunar Templar

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Souplex said:
We've been over this before; Scythes are a poor choice for a weapon, and those who think otherwise have poor opinions.
http://www.escapistmagazine.com/forums/read/18.70517-Scythes#694172
he's talking IN A VIDEO GAME, not RL, way to miss the point.

OT: Evie in Vindictus can use one, and it fucking devastating -.- would be more so if they hadn't made her staff the most over power thing, in any game, like ever (the mage class in this game has more damage out put and better survivability, THEN THE CHARACTERS DESIGN FOR DAMAGE AND 'TANKING' -.-)

there was guild wars but honestly >.> i never got into that game

but i'm with ya, should be more scythes in games
 

JackKrauserFtw

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May 21, 2008
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Belated said:
Souplex said:
We've been over this before; Scythes are a poor choice for a weapon, and those who think otherwise have poor opinions.
http://www.escapistmagazine.com/forums/read/18.70517-Scythes#694172
Uh, yeah, I don't really care what you've "been over" before. If I wasn't there, it might as well never have happened. Science can decide that it's not a practical weapon, but there is no science that can decide whether it is or isn't a "poor choice" as one in a video game. That is pure opinion based on aesthetics and aesthetics alone. Aesthetics, as in beauty. And beauty is rarely scientific. Beauty is in the eye of the beholder. And "eye of the beholder" is another way of saying "purely subjective." Thus, as it's something purely subjective, there are no "poor opinions" about it, positive or negative.
First off "If i wasn't there it might as well never have happened" How fucking egocentric do you want to be? search the forums, it's not that hard. Second if the only reason why a scythe is included as a weapon is for fan service than whats to stop me from saying I want to be able to throw golden gem encrusted turds at the enemy.
 

KiloFox

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Play one of the Phantasy Star games... there's PSO for the GameCube (good luck finding that though... $80 on E-Bay last I checked) but there's a free version of that with worse controls, but extra content for free called PSOBB (Phantasy Star Online Blue Burst) there's Phantasy Star Portable for the PSP, and it's sequel (Phantasy Star Portable 2) both branch off the PSU game for PS2 and Xbox360 Phantasy Star Universe (which is crap in comparison to the other games) AND there's the sequel to PSO coming exclusive to the PC (and to Japan too it looks like at the moment, but it's still in development so we'll see an English patch if nothing else) called PSO2 (Phantasy Star Online 2) and looks to take all the good things of PSO and PSU and combine them with none of the crap. Scythes are available in each game... usually just Soul Eater and Soul Banish. but they're still awesome.
 

Aethren

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Fayde in Heroes of Newerth uses a scythe. She gets bonus points for actually holding it correctly.
 

Eclectic Dreck

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I think the discussion largely dances around the key points. The first is simple enough to address: has something that is a scythe, by which I mean a farming implement, been used in warfare? Yes. Has such an implement been used to kill someone? Of course. With these two points we have established something: that the scythe has been leverage in battle and has almost certainly shed blood.

But these two points don't really address the real question. Plenty of objects can be used to end another person'[s life. A claw hammer can cave in a skull, a baseball bat can shatter bones and a sharpened stick can puncture flesh. But such things are improvised weapons. These are objects that are created with with a purpose other than ending the life of another and, as a natural result, will generally perform worse than a purpose built weapon.

This is precisely where the scythe falls. It is a weapon of desperation, something that is better than being unarmed but inadequate in the face of something designed specifically for the purpose of murder. A claw hammer can bash a skull but a war hammer is better suited for the purpose. A wood cutting axe can fell a man but any of a variety of battle axes are preferable for the job.

The last discussion seems to revolve around the notion of a scythe specifically designed for war. To this point I would argue that altering an object in order to make it better suited for one function (murder) at the expense of another (farming) means you are generally dealing with a different kind of object altogether.

DoctorFrankenStein said:
I LOVE scythes and sickles. As for their practicality I'll turn to the master scribe, Terry Pratchett-
"Although the scythe isn't pre-eminent among the weapons of war, anyone who has been on the wrong end of, say, a peasants' revolt will know that in skilled hands it is fearsome."
A peasant, by definition, would not represent "skilled hands", especially in the martial sense.

Jabberwock xeno said:
You can hook and grab the edges of armor, sheilds, and swords, twist and hook to pull them away, or hit the opponents body from odd angles.
The method of striking with a scythe does allow one to naturally attack the weakest points in armor. It also ensures that one has the most difficulty landing a hit as a short pace forward will result in being hit by the haft of the weapon and, assuming one is wearing any significant armor, will result in exactly zero significant injuries. By contrast, the person holding the scythe will have enormous difficulty maneuvering the weapon for a follow up attack before the defender can counter with their own strike. A single pace back and the blade misses entirely and a follow up attack would take a fair amount of time for no other reason than the design and length of the weapon. A step to either side could result in the blade only landing a glancing blow that could readily be turned by a great many types of armor (including relatively common and cheap iterations). Hooking the shield as described solves no problem as this ensures the dangerous part of one's weapon (the point and edge) are in no position to actually cause injury. Without a way to do anything more than jab the shield holding man with a blunt stick, one has simply forfeited their offensive strike by tangling their weapon with their target's defensive implement and have no means of defending against a swiftly delivered attack.

The fundamental problems with the scythe as a weapon ought to be obvious. The weapon is very long yet is designed to be used in a swinging motion. Once one commits to any particular motion of this type, it is difficult to quickly recover. More to the point, the length of such a weapon ensures that it would be of limited use defensively. This is a significant problem considering the average person wielding such a weapon would not be wearing anything more than the most rudimentary armor. Beyond this, there are the offensive problems I noted above. If you couple this with the fact that the scythe requires two hands to use, you find that you are armed with an inadequate weapon all while having next to nothing to defend yourself with. Where other weapons with similar flaws could at least find solace in numbers and well ordered formations, the basic mechanism of delivering an attack with a scythe ensures that close order ranks are impossible thus ensuring that a man so armed fights alone. When you top it all off with the simple fact that the farming version of a scythe is simply poorly suited to deliver an effective attack against a wide variety of armors, you find that it truly is a weapon of desperation.

There are ways around these problems of course. To counter the problem of an utter lack of defense one could simply wear significant armor. Such a move is expensive and almost certainly out of the means of a peasant. To counter the problems of the basic style of attack one could add a spear point. To counter the relative useless of such a weapon against significant armor one could opt for a shorter, thicker and wider blade.

The solution to the problem of the scythe therefore is easy to see: one simply needs a better weapon that shares little with the scythe and armor that no farmer could afford.
 

KarlMonster

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My character in Fallen Earth currently carries a scythe and a pickaxe. You'd think that is shockingly cumbersome, but since it works, I do it. However, in the game, the scythe does less damage than the pickaxe. So I pull out the pickaxe to clear the area since a strike to the head is a one-hit kill. Then I pull out the scythe to harvest whatever local plant it was that I went there to get. I could just use a sickle, or some other harvesting implement, but the scythe gives a better bonus to the harvest yield, and it looks frikkin cool. Because:

otakon17 said:
I'll be honest I've always like Halberds myself. But Scythes do have a certain "intimidation" factor inundated from association with the "Grim Reaper" that most people recognize as the anthropomorphic form of death.
 

DoctorFrankenStein

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Jul 4, 2011
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Eclectic Dreck said:
I think the discussion largely dances around the key points. The first is simple enough to address: has something that is a scythe, by which I mean a farming implement, been used in warfare? Yes. Has such an implement been used to kill someone? Of course. With these two points we have established something: that the scythe has been leverage in battle and has almost certainly shed blood.

But these two points don't really address the real question. Plenty of objects can be used to end another person'[s life. A claw hammer can cave in a skull, a baseball bat can shatter bones and a sharpened stick can puncture flesh. But such things are improvised weapons. These are objects that are created with with a purpose other than ending the life of another and, as a natural result, will generally perform worse than a purpose built weapon.

This is precisely where the scythe falls. It is a weapon of desperation, something that is better than being unarmed but inadequate in the face of something designed specifically for the purpose of murder. A claw hammer can bash a skull but a war hammer is better suited for the purpose. A wood cutting axe can fell a man but any of a variety of battle axes are preferable for the job.

The last discussion seems to revolve around the notion of a scythe specifically designed for war. To this point I would argue that altering an object in order to make it better suited for one function (murder) at the expense of another (farming) means you are generally dealing with a different kind of object altogether.

DoctorFrankenStein said:
I LOVE scythes and sickles. As for their practicality I'll turn to the master scribe, Terry Pratchett-
"Although the scythe isn't pre-eminent among the weapons of war, anyone who has been on the wrong end of, say, a peasants' revolt will know that in skilled hands it is fearsome."
A peasant, by definition, would not represent "skilled hands", especially in the martial sense.

Jabberwock xeno said:
You can hook and grab the edges of armor, sheilds, and swords, twist and hook to pull them away, or hit the opponents body from odd angles.
The method of striking with a scythe does allow one to naturally attack the weakest points in armor. It also ensures that one has the most difficulty landing a hit as a short pace forward will result in being hit by the haft of the weapon and, assuming one is wearing any significant armor, will result in exactly zero significant injuries. By contrast, the person holding the scythe will have enormous difficulty maneuvering the weapon for a follow up attack before the defender can counter with their own strike. A single pace back and the blade misses entirely and a follow up attack would take a fair amount of time for no other reason than the design and length of the weapon. A step to either side could result in the blade only landing a glancing blow that could readily be turned by a great many types of armor (including relatively common and cheap iterations). Hooking the shield as described solves no problem as this ensures the dangerous part of one's weapon (the point and edge) are in no position to actually cause injury. Without a way to do anything more than jab the shield holding man with a blunt stick, one has simply forfeited their offensive strike by tangling their weapon with their target's defensive implement and have no means of defending against a swiftly delivered attack.

The fundamental problems with the scythe as a weapon ought to be obvious. The weapon is very long yet is designed to be used in a swinging motion. Once one commits to any particular motion of this type, it is difficult to quickly recover. More to the point, the length of such a weapon ensures that it would be of limited use defensively. This is a significant problem considering the average person wielding such a weapon would not be wearing anything more than the most rudimentary armor. Beyond this, there are the offensive problems I noted above. If you couple this with the fact that the scythe requires two hands to use, you find that you are armed with an inadequate weapon all while having next to nothing to defend yourself with. Where other weapons with similar flaws could at least find solace in numbers and well ordered formations, the basic mechanism of delivering an attack with a scythe ensures that close order ranks are impossible thus ensuring that a man so armed fights alone. When you top it all off with the simple fact that the farming version of a scythe is simply poorly suited to deliver an effective attack against a wide variety of armors, you find that it truly is a weapon of desperation.

There are ways around these problems of course. To counter the problem of an utter lack of defense one could simply wear significant armor. Such a move is expensive and almost certainly out of the means of a peasant. To counter the problems of the basic style of attack one could add a spear point. To counter the relative useless of such a weapon against significant armor one could opt for a shorter, thicker and wider blade.

The solution to the problem of the scythe therefore is easy to see: one simply needs a better weapon that shares little with the scythe and armor that no farmer could afford.
Too long to read and I'm in a hurry. But I will say this- I have several antique scythes and sickles and I like them very much.
You on the other hand, have lots and lots of free time. Toodles. ;D