Serious Sam Studio Exec Joins Anti-Windows 8 Chorus

Schadrach

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Baldr said:
He Anti-Win8 because something Microsoft could, but most likely will never do in the future?
Really not because the OS itself?
People hate on Steam for less.

Also, yes, Windows 8 supports desktop UI apps pretty close to seamlessly, but tiled UI apps have those restrictions, and Microsoft has had something of a trend of using "Embrace. Extend. Extinguish." as a tactic of choice.
 

Atrocious Joystick

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There are many flaws with the European Union, but here is one thing they really shine at. Microsoft is too big to ever be allowed to lock down their OS in such a way that you require certification to release programs on it. If the EU doesn't allow them to pack their own web browser with their own OS, they are not going to allow them to charge a certification fee. At least not on the PC. And Microsoft can't afford to lose the EU userbase so they'll comply.

It's all chill dudes.

And that's assuming they even want to lock it down. A far more likely scenario to me is they simply want greater integration between all windows devices. The os on a windows tablet and windows on a pc is supossed to feel like the same thing.
 

DewMan001

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Andy Chalk said:
Funny how that works, eh?

And as Ladavac made clear, the problem isn't what Windows 8 is doing right now - it's what it or some successor might do in the future if Microsoft continues moving toward the "walled garden." Everyone calling him an idiot would do well to remember that he's not some random crank, and he's not alone.
Developers have every right to be concerned about the Windows Store. But Microsoft would be foolish to have that be the only way to get programs, as it would remove their main customer base of the business and enterprise world, who need the desktop portion of Windows to function. You can't really multitask with only two apps on screen at one time. So, I'm not calling Ladavac an idiot, and he has every right to be concerned, but I feel that the developers are fearing over nothing. Microsoft can not afford to go the way of Apple.
 

DewMan001

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Nocturnus said:
All of the freakout against Windows 8 and the Store is nothing short of pure speculation. Slippery slope at its best.

Windows 8 works great with everything that i've run with it.

How about this...

IF Microsoft decides to actually go down the road of self castration, which I doubt will happen... THEN we can respond accordingly and abandon ship from the operating system.

Until then? Let's stop with the conspiracy theories. Because that's all stuff like this is... panic associated with something that hasn't happened yet and likely won't happen at all.
Couldn't agree more.
 

DewMan001

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zumbledum said:
I mean its not like MS has a good reputation , they stole everything they are famous for and have used about the most brutal under handed tactics you can to put competitors out of business before.
By that logic any sort of creativity is stealing. You can't really have an original idea nowadays without it sounding kind of like an idea that's already been put forth. Technically, Google Docs was 'stolen' from Microsoft Office. They didn't steal everything they are famous for.

And the avatars, well... Those were basically more in depth Miis.

zumbledum said:
Anyone old enough to remember when IBM pc compatible was the normal language before PC meant windows will remember the shit that MS pulled to get that change. when a animal bites you its hard to offer your hand a second/1ooo th time.
I'm sorry, could you please explain this a little more to me?
 

mussan

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taciturnCandid said:
Oh hey. Guess what my windows 8 does. It runs any game. Guess what else I can do? Pin any shortcut to the start screen. I can even pin shortcut to random files.

Have these developers even really done any research?
Did you even read the article at all?

You being able to run Win32 games and apps in Windows 8 is about as relevant as you being able to run MS-DOS games in Win95. You certainly could do that, but it was in no way a guarantee that Microsoft will officially support running of MS-DOS apps/games in all their future OSes. And they did eventually drop that, in Win2000/XP.

To make this analogy more relevant to this case, it would have been similar if the only way for you to install any Win32 apps, even freeware, in Windows 95 (and 98, and ME etc.) would have been through an official MS Windows Store. If someone had complained back then of MS locking down the system to a walled garden, would your answer to those concerns been "What are you complaining about??? You can still run MS-DOS, and even Win16, apps and games in Windows 95! So Microsoft has done nothing to restrict anyone!".

It wouldn't have needed a rocket-scientist to figure out the perils of such move. And exactly the same applies in this case, unless you really believe the only reason for the existence of WinRT in Windows 8 is to run simplistic mobile apps like Angry Birds, and never extend to "real" games and applications. Yeah right.
 

zumbledum

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DewMan001 said:
zumbledum said:
I mean its not like MS has a good reputation , they stole everything they are famous for and have used about the most brutal under handed tactics you can to put competitors out of business before.
By that logic any sort of creativity is stealing. You can't really have an original idea nowadays without it sounding kind of like an idea that's already been put forth. Technically, Google Docs was 'stolen' from Microsoft Office. They didn't steal everything they are famous for.

And the avatars, well... Those were basically more in depth Miis.

zumbledum said:
Anyone old enough to remember when IBM pc compatible was the normal language before PC meant windows will remember the shit that MS pulled to get that change. when a animal bites you its hard to offer your hand a second/1ooo th time.
I'm sorry, could you please explain this a little more to me?

no sorry i wasnt clear i wasnt referring to the normal interaction of inspiration where you can trace the origins of some creative spark back through the generations i meant actual up front theft, actual kicking down the door picking up your TV and claiming it is yours then suing me for slander.

3 years before MS invented the windows system i was using my Amiga 1200 and its hard wired on chip windowed operating system. Bill not only out right stole it , read that as direct lifting in all of its practical applications with little to no difference, he doesnt have the talent to do it himself and hatchets the guy he gets to do the dirty work then sues the victims for getting thier blood splattered all over him.


And no if you dont hate MS you werent there and you simply wont believe anything i say because it reads like fiction do your own research here, id start googling MS famous and lawsuits or MS legal division. should get pages of entertaining stuff .
 

mussan

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SupahGamuh said:
I still don't get it... personally, I haven't used Win 8 and I'm really not interested in doing so, but my friend tells me that he can install and run each and every single game he has, Steam or not, so... I'm seriously confused, what's the big deal?, is it really necessary to go through the Windows Store to make any software for it?, can't I just install anythin I want and call it a day?, can't anyone just keep making software for Win 7 and add compatibility to Win 8 and bypass their store?...

So many questions and I'm still pretty confused...
Yes you can still install and use legacy Win7/XP desktop software in Win8. Just like you could still run MS-DOS and Win16 games and apps in Windows 95. But can you still in Win9? Win10? You couldn't officially run MS-DOS games anymore in Windows XP.

None of this would really matter if only Microsoft allowed the Win8 users to install WinRT software irrespective of their own Windows Store. Ask yourself this: why is Microsoft blocking the competition out in WinRT? It has nothing to do with the need to make sure the WinRT ("Metro") apps are compatible with different architectures or have no bugs, because Microsoft could still do that certification for all Windows Store apps and games, even if at the same time they allowed the users also install WinRT apps that have not originated from the Windows Store.

This move is nothing but the first step from Microsoft introducing the XBox console model to PC world, ie. everything you ever install to your PC, will have to go through Microsoft.
 

BoredRolePlayer

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Furism said:
I like how Microsoft is getting shit for doing what Apple has been doing on iOS since the first iPhone. They even dictate what programming language you can use.

Right now I use Windows 8 and it works fine. Steam works, all my software works, I only went to the Windows Store to download Minesweeper (I like that game, okay?) and the OS didn't punch me in the face.

It sounds like this guy is jumping on the bandwagon. I understand that people fear change and removing the Start Menu they know for 15 years or more is a Big Thing, but people seem to complain even before they spent one day using it.

There are other problems, which are more to the point, like how Chrome will open a different session whether you open it from the Desktop or the (not-)Metro home screen.
Mind if I ask which Programming Language?
 

mussan

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nodlimax said:
In addition people should start thinking about the follow versions of Win8. This is what the guy warns about. If you're suddenly unable to play your steam games on Window 9 or if you're unable to install anything but MS certified software what are you going to do then?

In that case you could throw out all of your game classics like C&C, Starcraft, Civilization and so on...
Microsoft dropping legacy support away at some point is not the issue at all. You couldn't officially run most of MS-DOS games anymore in Win2000/XP, or you can't run 16bit Windows apps in 64bit Vistas or Win7s either. That was just to be expected, MS or any company for that matter will offer backwards compatibility only to an extent.

But the only real issue is indeed that this could quite well be the first step for MS to make Windows a walled garden where everything, even freeware, has to go through Microsoft. There are absolutely no other reasons for locking down Windows like this other than Microsoft wanting a cut of every application or game purchase in Windows platforms just like Apple is making loads of money in iOS, and secondary reason maybe being to thwart piracy somewhat.

You can also kiss goodbye in the future for new inventions similar to ScummVM, DOSBox etc. There's no chance Microsoft would allow such "rogue" software to be invented and released in their system even as freeware, which lets people play their old games in unofficial ways, without paying again for remakes and HD versions of old games.
 

taciturnCandid

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mussan said:
taciturnCandid said:
Oh hey. Guess what my windows 8 does. It runs any game. Guess what else I can do? Pin any shortcut to the start screen. I can even pin shortcut to random files.

Have these developers even really done any research?
Did you even read the article at all?

You being able to run Win32 games and apps in Windows 8 is about as relevant as you being able to run MS-DOS games in Win95. You certainly could do that, but it was in no way a guarantee that Microsoft will officially support running MS-DOS apps in all their future OSes. And they certainly did eventually drop that, in Win2000/XP.

To make this analogy more relevant to this case, it would have been similar if the only way for you to install any Win32 apps, even freeware, in Windows 95 (and 98, and ME etc.) would have been through an official MS Windows Store. If someone had complained back then of MS locking down the system to a walled garden, would your answer to those concerns been "What are you complaining about??? You can still run MS-DOS, and even Win16, apps and games in Windows 95! So Microsoft has done nothing to restrict anyone!".

It wouldn't have needed a rocket-scientist to figure out the perils of such move. And exactly the same applies in this case, unless you really believe the only reason for the existence of WinRT in Windows 8 is to run simplistic mobile apps like Angry Birds, and never extend to "real" games and applications. Yeah right.
Holy paranoia. the fact of the matter is, drop support for 32 bit and 64 bit programs and Microsoft would instantly lose all their customers. Part of their strategy relies on the fact that there is a huge software catalog that attracts people.

The main reason for this app thing is to help with the tablet market as well as offer programs like smartglass.

Windows 8 is actually windows 6.2
the six architecture was vista,7, and 8
5 was 2k/xp

The operating system ran differently and that is why it couldn't run the same things. Sure microsoft could have added that in, but at that point people were not using DOS and win16 programs enough to justify keeping it.

When the majority of programs out there are run only in 64 bit, then microsoft will have incentive to switch to 64 bit.

If they tried to do the only certification shit and removed the ability to use older programs before the point where they are obsolete, then the users and software developers would avoid it. The fact that your software wasn't compatible and you couldn't develop your own free stuff would make a massive backlash.

They wouldn't do it. They are still subject to the free market and if they no longer supported the very thing that defined them, they would immedietly be hurt by manufacturers, large buyers and consumers.

Further is the fact that Windows now has to compete with OSX and linux. The company isn't stupid.

It wanted an app store so it can get a direct cut from some things while at the same time making an easy delivery method that is idiot proof. You would be surprised at all the people I have to help install stupid shit. You can get it directly digitally distributed and it has some quality assurance.

Not only that, but now they have google encroaching on their territory with chromebooks and tablets are able to do more and more.

Microsoft is doing some risk to try to see if they can make compatibility with tablets, phones, Computers, and xbox. Making them all work in synergy is a great idea in my opinion.

By maintaining a similar experience while still having the technical desktop mode, Windows 8 allows people brought up on smartphones and tablets to automatically be comfortable with using a computer.
 

Saregon

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Strazdas said:
windows 8 will work on touchscreen mobile phones. it is useless for anything else. and touch monitors while its interesting id rather wait for touchable projections because i really dont want to leave fingerprints all over my screen. not to mention how the people who use large hanging tvs isntead of monitors should feel...
This. I'll be sticking to my Win7 as long as I can unless some new Windows goes back to form. I just want Win7 polished to a sheen, not a touch-based OS. I like the Start menu, always have, and the new... thing... just looks horrible, and from what I hear it handles just as bad with a mouse. I also don't want fingerprints on my scree, not to mention how tiresome it would be on a desktop PC (and laptops, if slightly less) to reach up and touch the screen all the time. This is not something lying in your lap like a pad, or held in your hand like a phone. This is (in my case) a 24-inch monitor sitting at arms-length away from me. Not to mention when I use my TV as a monitor and sit on the other side of the room.

Furthermore, I like that Windows has always been the open competitor to the closed off Macs. I don't want to be forced into something. And these people, Notch and Gabe especially, are people I like, I respect their opinions, and I listen when they speak. These are after all people who follow the gaming and software development and publishing side of things a LOT more than I do, and when they are worried about this direction from Microsoft, I tend to listen.

And if Microsoft does go the extra step and close it off completely, I'll be switching to an iOS, simply because I like the aesthetics of it, and if Windows also becomes a closed OS, there's no reason for me to bother. But what I would really love is a proper, easy to use (I'm not really a computer wiz) Linux that has good compatibility for games and other software.
 

DewMan001

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mussan said:
taciturnCandid said:
Oh hey. Guess what my windows 8 does. It runs any game. Guess what else I can do? Pin any shortcut to the start screen. I can even pin shortcut to random files.

Have these developers even really done any research?
Did you even read the article at all?

You being able to run Win32 games and apps in Windows 8 is about as relevant as you being able to run MS-DOS games in Win95. You certainly could do that, but it was in no way a guarantee that Microsoft will officially support running MS-DOS apps in all their future OSes. And they certainly did eventually drop that, in Win2000/XP.

To make this analogy more relevant to this case, it would have been similar if the only way for you to install any Win32 apps, even freeware, in Windows 95 (and 98, and ME etc.) would have been through an official MS Windows Store. If someone had complained back then of MS locking down the system to a walled garden, would your answer to those concerns been "What are you complaining about??? You can still run MS-DOS, and even Win16, apps and games in Windows 95! So Microsoft has done nothing to restrict anyone!".

It wouldn't have needed a rocket-scientist to figure out the perils of such move. And exactly the same applies in this case, unless you really believe the only reason for the existence of WinRT in Windows 8 is to run simplistic mobile apps like Angry Birds, and never extend to "real" games and applications. Yeah right.
I really don't think that they would ditch the Desktop thing in favor of mobile style apps. That would seriously hurt their primary market, and hurt them as a company.
 

The Critic

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RhombusHatesYou said:
Andy Chalk said:
jollybarracuda said:
Wait wait. People are calling this guy dumb for saying this? People were practically making flags and waving them out in their yards when Gabe Newell said the same damn thing.
Funny how that works, eh?

And as Ladavac made clear, the problem isn't what Windows 8 is doing right now - it's what it or some successor might do in the future if Microsoft continues moving toward the "walled garden."
Yes, exactly. Windows 8 itself isn't the problem (except certification), it's the possible trend it represents that has people concerned enough that they're speaking up now before a any possible closed system Windows is released as a fait accompli and it's too late to do anything about it. I like to think of it as preventative bitching.
Hit the nail on the head. You're absolutely right in my book, it's a matter of what could happen, not what's up right now.

And, "preventative bitching"....you mind if I steal that line? That is a good one.
 

iniudan

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taciturnCandid said:
Oh hey. Guess what my windows 8 does.

It runs any game.

Guess what else I can do? Pin any shortcut to the start screen. I can even pin shortcut to random files.


Have these developers even really done any research? Are they really that mad that not having access to the app store is going to ruin their day? I mean, it forces you to install games just like you would on any other windows os! HORRIBLE.

Not to mention that you can again pin it to the start program so that way when the computer starts up you can instantly jump to it.

I have all of my games on tiles. Even Fighting is Magic. Seriously windows 8 isn't bad at all. I love it and I find nothing wrong so far
You don't understand the problem with tiles, the trouble is not about creating desktop program shortcut on the metro interface, but the inability to use their full feature.

Also since there is no sideloading if you want to use full metro feature you have to go through the appstore which require you to pay and go through certification, basically what dev team don't want having to go through the bullshit (having to pay and go through certification each time you want to update the game) that is releasing update on xbox360 to spread to PC. No idea if the MS appstore currently has that procedure in place for update, but if it does, that why you see dev going against it, for most non-indie wouldn't actually mind the certification if it was just on major version release of software, but for update, it is a whole different thing, since it not just having to pay Microsoft but also putting your reputation in the hand of them, since if you happen to discover an important bug in your software after release it mean you have to submit your patch to Microsoft and wait for them to accept it instead of simply having the possibility been able to release one on short notice.
 

iniudan

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Vie said:
What's the betting the next generation of Windows, let's call it 9 for arguments sake, will come in two major versions:

Win9 "Home" which is basically the metro interface, totally locked into MS's store (Windows RT for the Desktop.)
Win9 "Professional" which is what we see now with Windows 8, Metro interface with legacy desktop mode.


Let's imagine Johnny consumer goes down to his local store to buy his kid one of those newfangled computermodongles for little Johnny Junior. On offer are the touchscreen enabled Win9 Home powered Microbox for $399, and the non touchscreen Win9 Professional powered Uberbox for $599.

Little Johnny Junior is going to be locked into Microsoft's walled garden, and won't have the joy of buying a program without microsoft getting it's greedy little paws on his pocket money.

At the same time Microsoft get's to claim it's still an open platform, and we are all using the Professional version (or Win7/Linux) and aren't affected. Oh, till developers find it's impossible to sell any big name games on the PC, without going though the MS store, since all the new generation of PC gamers are, like little Johnny Junior, locked into Microsoft's store.
/happy clappy (sorry for the oddness, that was the CAPTCHA and was so fitting)

But anyway that indeed the most plausible scenario of Microsoft closing itself in the future, for on the pro/enterprise/server version if they close themselves they can just say goodbye to most IT department wanting to do anything with them, outside of keeping what already running and that would just leave Microsoft been ruined, while closing only home version mean mostly they only get video games industry and PC gamers angered, has game are about the only third party specialist software that see a common use on the home edition.
 

Strazdas

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May 28, 2011
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taciturnCandid said:
Have you even tried it? It runs nothing like iOS. I actually love it very much and it is fairly unique in its design. It takes a second or two to get a hang of, but once you do it works really well.
Its comapred to iOS not becuase of how it runs, but because it treats its costumers like idiots that need everything "licensed" because obviuosly a computer user cant make his own decisions about whats right for him.
Bolded part: PLEASE


taciturnCandid said:
Honestly, I don't think I could go back to 7. It is really a solid operating system.
I guess my post stating "are people really that stupid?" has just been answered....


taciturnCandid said:
Windows 8 is fast to run. I can any game better than I could on 7. There are things that make my life easier and I love the app stuff. The skype/windows messanger app is a real life saver and the ability to split the screen is wonderful for my laptop. the search actually works unlike other version of windows.

I am able to multitask much better than I used to be able to. This makes me faster to respond to people on skype without sitting there waiting for the next reply when it is open. I can quickly switch to an app that i want in less than a second. It comes from sleep mode extremely quickly and is faster to do a cold boot. I love being able to play shadowrun and not have to switch all the time from skype to the pdf.
all i can say is

taciturnCandid said:
It is extremely easy and intuitive to hook up devices to it, especially second screens. Smartglass is a pretty neat thing for me to be able to stream my videos to the tv or control netflix from afar.
I admit, netflix is not available in my country so i havent tested that.
taciturnCandid said:
Saying it is like iOS is just looking at the start screen and not actually using it. When you are on the desktop, it performs very similarly to 7. When you are in a fullscreen program, none of the little switch things trigger so you don't have to worry about accidentally switching out of your game.
what triggers? nothing put me out of my full screen games in windows xp or windows 7 unless i wanted it to.

taciturnCandid said:
I have way less clutter on my desktop and I am far more organized. There is a lot of hate for the OS, but i don't feel that much of it is justified personally
You are more organized because you are forced to, not because the OS makes it easier. if you were as clumsy with w8, it wouldnt forgive you.
 

mussan

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taciturnCandid said:
Holy paranoia. the fact of the matter is, drop support for 32 bit and 64 bit programs and Microsoft would instantly lose all their customers. Part of their strategy relies on the fact that there is a huge software catalog that attracts people.
Dropping the support for legacy Win7/XP apps already in Win8 would have been a suicide of course, just like dropping support for MS-DOS games in Win95 would have been. Naturally Microsoft will offer backwards compatibility for awhile, as long as it takes for them to migrate the users from MS-DOS or 16bit Win applications to Win32, or from Win32 to WinRT.

taciturnCandid said:
The main reason for this app thing is to help with the tablet market as well as offer programs like smartglass.
Microsoft has used so enormously resources to bring WinRT/Metro into their desktop OS, even making it the centerpiece of it that you can't bypass even if you wanted, just so that desktop users could play mobile Angry Birds on their desktop PC? PLEASE!

Where exactly has MS claimed that the only use for WinRT will ever be to run the most simplistic mobile apps, even on x86 based desktop PCs?

taciturnCandid said:
If they tried to do the only certification shit and removed the ability to use older programs before the point where they are obsolete, then the users and software developers would avoid it. The fact that your software wasn't compatible and you couldn't develop your own free stuff would make a massive backlash.
You missed that you can make freeware also for WinRT. But all of it has to go through Microsoft's screening process. Are software developers avoiding e.g. iOS, because it is a walled garden? Your argument makes no real sense.

As for backwards compatibility, see above. Win9x could officially also run MS-DOS games. Win2000/XP dropped that support as obsolete, when the user migration to Win32 was complete.

taciturnCandid said:
It wanted an app store so it can get a direct cut from some things while at the same time making an easy delivery method that is idiot proof. You would be surprised at all the people I have to help install stupid shit. You can get it directly digitally distributed and it has some quality assurance.
That is completely beside the point. I don't think anyone is complaining that Microsoft is introducing their own digital store where they guarantee certain level of service through a strict screening process.

The issue is that at the same time they are blocking the users from getting, purchasing and installing WinRT apps outside of the MS Windows Store. The main reason for this move from MS is to drop competing digital delivery stores like Steam, EA Origin, UPlay, GamersGate etc. from getting a cut from WinRT app and game sales. It has absolutely nothing to do with offering users a better service. If some user wants to get all his WinRT apps only through the Windows Store because they trust only Microsoft's screening process (not e.g. Valve Steam's), fine, they could still do that, even without Microsoft actively blocking the competition.
 

thesilentman

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Jun 14, 2012
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BoredRolePlayer said:
Mind if I ask which Programming Language?
I believe that it's C# or any of the C variants (C++ and the like)
iniudan said:
/happy clappy (sorry for the oddness, that was the CAPTCHA and was so fitting)

But anyway that indeed the most plausible scenario of Microsoft closing itself in the future, for on the pro/enterprise/server version if they close themselves they can just say goodbye to most IT department wanting to do anything with them, outside of keeping what already running and that would just leave Microsoft been ruined, while closing only home version mean mostly they only get video games industry and PC gamers angered, has game are about the only third party specialist software that see a common use on the home edition.
...And there goes their source of income. For MS, it's all about the enterprise and business sector. Closing stuff off on them is clear grounds for the IT sector to ditch them entirely. And the IT sector knows their shit, so they won't have any trouble going off and running Red Hat on their servers on their first attempt.

Strazdas said:
Its comapred to iOS not becuase of how it runs, but because it treats its costumers like idiots that need everything "licensed" because obviuosly a computer user cant make his own decisions about whats right for him.
Bolded part: PLEASE
The basic functionality of the Windows Desktop is still there. Windows 8 will still allow you to install applications like LibreOffice, Steam, BitTorrent, and other open source, free applications. It's just the implications of the Windows Store making MS seem more like Apple with each passing day.

And the fact that you said that Windows 8 treats people like idiots shows me that you haven't tried the OS. Go to MS' site, grab the Release Preview and at least try it in a VM. Windows 8, in my opinion, strikes a balance between idiot-proofing and letting the user have choices. It's just hidden under the funny interface known as Metro.
I guess my post stating "are people really that stupid?" has just been answered....
Er, 8 is better objectively except for Metro. 8's been proven to run under the hood much better than 7 and XP[footnote]Nowhere near 2000 Pro level though, THAT was a thing of beauty.[/footnote]. Windows 8 is built on the same kernel that exists in 7 and adds improvements that streamline the overall performance of the OS. You can't argue with that. A Google search should prove this.

all i can say is
Okay. Now explain why.

You are more organized because you are forced to, not because the OS makes it easier. if you were as clumsy with w8, it wouldnt forgive you.
Uh, that's distortion right there. If it works for him, calm down. If it doesn't work for you, relax and don't use it.

Hammeroj said:
So... What's with the tablet interface on a PC? Is it for visually impaired people?
MS is calling it 'an integration of the desktop and mobile computing platforms."

The interface is pretty shit, as you can see, but the OS is really sweet on the insides. And you do have a desktop to work with, so this isn't going to interfere all the time.

Short version: yes, and it's pretty shit.