Sexism against men

[Panda Mania]

Here's what a lot of peeps don't realize:

Feminism is actually all about equal rights for men and women. Ideally, its sole aim is to have both genders treated equally, because females and males are of equal worth. And at the basis of feminism (and civil rights, and workers' rights, etc.) is this little thing called human rights.

Sexism, in all its many forms, views one gender as less, as not equal (and I'm not talking about physical traits here).

So, the conclusion: in their endeavors, feminists should always remember that they're rallying for equal rights for both men and women. HOWEVER, dear sir/madam, keep in mind that the vast majority (and I do mean vast--I'm speaking on a global scale here) of situations involve men marginalizing women. Think not of the petty lawsuits of favoritism here ("she's only the boss 'cause she's a woman!"), but of the dire conditions of millions of women around the world--women suffering economic oppression and brutal gender-based violence. Until this world finally, finally comes to treat women as equal, I think the focus should be on empowering women. Not to say that cases of "reverse-sexism" should be ignored, no, not at all, but they shouldn't be the thing people get outraged about. Visit Pakistan and Chad and Egypt and India and then tell me who needs justice.

(Sorry that came off so preachy It's kinda my issue...) Anyhoo, OT--that ad you described is mildly disturbing, I guess, but methinks it might be a case of the so-called War Between the Sexes, classic "boys drool, girls rule!" stuff. Tho that's not to say that media representation doesn't play a crucial role in shaping a culture! Movies and ads and such should be more sensitive on these issues.

 

[gallaetha_matt]

I've just lost faith in humanity, or at least I would have, if I hadn't already. But rape really isn't the subject. It's part of it, but not a very important.

Yeah, I know I kind've went off on one. I only intended to grab these stats, toss 'em in as a discussion point for either side of the debate and then leave. But by the time I was done gathering them I felt like some words needed to be said, before I knew it I had been ranting about rape for three paragraphs.

I also typed the word 'rape' way more than I ever would've liked. I feel dirty now. More so than usual.

 

[Zykon TheLich]

[quote="rollerfox88" post="18.

 

[Sexual Harassment Panda]

Yeh, does it matter all that much though?

I tend to roll my eyes at these things rather than let them anger me...you can't and won't hurt my feelings with this kind of petty crap.

I suspect these double standards exist and are allowed continue existing for good reason. Whether it be historical, or just as simple as men and women not being exactly the same...or a mix of both.

 

[TonyVonTonyus]

It's mainly due to the fact that in the past men treated women slightest less that fairly, you might say and now that we live in a society that puts women on an equal level of course they're going to try and wear the jackboots for a change. Equality, while a nice notion isn't really possible in human nature as both genders see their own as the stronger and more worthy of power over the other.

 

[ZeroMachine]

You ever try and balance a pencil on your finger?

Go get a pencil, but put it on your finger really lopsided (but don't let it fall).

Then try to adjust it to balance it out.

What happens? The pencil ends up leaning the other way, doesn't it? It's now unbalanced, but in the opposite direction.

And when you try and put it back, the same will happen.

After some deliberation, you'll finally have it balanced on your finger... but it'll always wobble to and fro.

Think of sexism like that.

Go to your freezer and see if you can find an ice lolly (or a 'Popsicle' if you're American). Unwrap it, but don't eat it. Imagine you're going to give this ice lolly to a friend of yours.

But oh no, it's very cold! Too cold to eat comfortably. Instead of giving it to them as is, try to warm it up for them. You can hold it in your hand and let your body heat melt it a bit, but that might get you sticky. So instead, you could get a hair-dryer and use that to melt it for them.

But if you put the setting too high... oh dear, it's now just a sugary puddle on the ground.

Think of condescending metaphors like that.

... How, exactly, is that condescending? I'm not talking to him like he's an idiot. I'm putting it in a metaphor because I couldn't think of a better way to explain it. Only condescending person here is you.

You ever try and balance a pencil on your finger?

Go get a pencil, but put it on your finger really lopsided (but don't let it fall).

Then try to adjust it to balance it out.

What happens? The pencil ends up leaning the other way, doesn't it? It's now unbalanced, but in the opposite direction.

And when you try and put it back, the same will happen.

After some deliberation, you'll finally have it balanced on your finger... but it'll always wobble to and fro.

Think of sexism like that. Women started on the harsh end of things. Right now, though we don't have it nearly as bad as they did, men have it kinda bad. Some people might call it "reverse sexism" even though that makes no fucking sense and they should be slapped. Soon enough, though, it'll balance out, but that inequality will always be there, even if it isn't obvious or huge. The scales will always wobble. We just need to learn to deal with it when it comes.

Actually, sod my last post, this right here is the problem. When you view sexism as a constant tug-o'-war it implies that one gender must always be dominant, so the other has nothing to complain about. This bullshit is the reason that men's rights activists (again, the sincere ones, not the cowardly misogynists) end up viewing feminists as "the enemy" and feminists can't bring themselves to spare a thought for men who've been on the recieving end of a double standard. That's the kind of binary, tribalistic crap that helps create sexism in the first place.

(This post isn't particularly aimed at ZeroMachine; I've no idea what his actual views are, I just take exception to that metaphor.)

Hey, just because it's the way it works, doesn't mean it doesn't suck/isn't wrong.

 

[inquisiti0n]

ummmmm.... because they are?

Christ, way to refute the validity of your own argument. Also, a lot of people bring up the divorce courts thing, but that's a rare exception to an otherwise very one-sided ratio of discrimination and nothing to warrant any kind of panic about the treatment of men when they have it easy in just about every other respect.

Acknowledging the fact that the average man is physically stronger and taller than the average woman refutes my validity in what way? If you have a problem with that, take it up with mother nature. If however, you're just projecting and assumed I was implying that women are somehow inferior because of that physical difference, then that's on you.


Oh, and "a rare exception?" In other words, you're ok with the blatant discrimination in divorce courts and how men are financially fucked over in such cases because, according to you, other areas of society are rampantly misogynistic? Classy.

 

[retyopy]

Here's what a lot of peeps don't realize:

Feminism is actually all about equal rights for men and women. Ideally, its sole aim is to have both genders treated equally, because females and males are of equal worth. And at the basis of feminism (and civil rights, and workers' rights, etc.) is this little thing called human rights.

Sexism, in all its many forms, views one gender as less, as not equal (and I'm not talking about physical traits here).

So, the conclusion: in their endeavors, feminists should always remember that they're rallying for equal rights for both men and women. HOWEVER, dear sir/madam, keep in mind that the vast majority (and I do mean vast--I'm speaking on a global scale here) of situations involve men marginalizing women. Think not of the petty lawsuits of favoritism here ("she's only the boss 'cause she's a woman!"), but of the dire conditions of millions of women around the world--women suffering economic oppression and brutal gender-based violence. Until this world finally, finally comes to treat women as equal, I think the focus should be on empowering women. Not to say that cases of "reverse-sexism" should be ignored, no, not at all, but they shouldn't be the thing people get outraged about. Visit Pakistan and Chad and Egypt and India and then tell me who needs justice.

(Sorry that came off so preachy It's kinda my issue...) Anyhoo, OT--that ad you described is mildly disturbing, I guess, but methinks it might be a case of the so-called War Between the Sexes, classic "boys drool, girls rule!" stuff. Tho that's not to say that media representation doesn't play a crucial role in shaping a culture! Movies and ads and such should be more sensitive on these issues.

So you're saying we should ignore issues because you prefer others? Perhaps I'm being a bit insane, but I don't think I can feel very sympathetic for a cause if they're insulting me. I may need to word that better, but the point stands. I do agree that it is awful how women are treated, and it sickens me.

 

[Totenkopf]

Spoiler: MIGHTY

Yeaah...no, your arguments seemed to be isolated incidents as well as being particularly vague and thoroughly unconvincing. I really have no idea what's triggering this, but I swear I see more and more males, most prevelantly on the Internet bitching about this 'it's only sexist/racsit when a white man does it' and such other tripe. You really don't know how lucky you have it, so stop being so paranoid, notice that societal, media and corporate views towards minorities are still being held in lower regard, accept while there are a few double standards that favour women, far FAR more of them favour men and most of all....

I have to disagree.
The wonders of political correctness and liberalism made it happen that there strangely is a double standard (probably isn't the most fitting word here, couldn't think of something better) towards people who can't be associated with a relevant minority-group.
This is not paranoia of some overpriviliged "standard" guys, those are not just "isolated incidents".
That shit exists, it occurs more frequently than you seem to like to admit, and downplaying it is not really a sign of righteous spirit.
So, kindly

Spoiler: Rrrriiiinnngggg

Yourself, since denying / to ridicule apparent societal problems isn't helping anyone, is it?

OT: I made my point a few lines above.

 

[ItsAChiaotzu]

ummmmm.... because they are?

Christ, way to refute the validity of your own argument. Also, a lot of people bring up the divorce courts thing, but that's a rare exception to an otherwise very one-sided ratio of discrimination and nothing to warrant any kind of panic about the treatment of men when they have it easy in just about every other respect.

See, this is the problem with what you're saying, you're acting like inequality should be measured up and the side who has the most situations rigged to their disadvantage is automatically the one being horribly oppressed and the other side should just grow the fuck up because none of their problems matter, which just in my opinion, is incredibly immature. What you should really want, is overall equality, where it is just as important that men are treated equally in divorce courts as it is that women should be treated equally in employment.

 

[retyopy]

Since this had sort of become a thread about sexism and stereotyping in general, let me tall you what just happened.

So a couple of people are visiting my family, and they wanted me to set up the wii, because they "didn't want to mess anything up." (These people are female. Just wanted to clarify.) They don't know that I have any experience with this sort of thing, but they assume that I do because I'm a boy. Also, its kind of sad that they didn't think they could figure it out. Maybe I'm reading into this too much, but I feel like things like this pop up a lot more than we realize.

 

[inquisiti0n]

HOWEVER, dear sir/madam, keep in mind that the vast majority (and I do mean vast--I'm speaking on a global scale here) of situations involve men marginalizing women. Think not of the petty lawsuits of favoritism here ("she's only the boss 'cause she's a woman!"), but of the dire conditions of millions of women around the world--women suffering economic oppression and brutal gender-based violence. Until this world finally, finally comes to treat women as equal, I think the focus should be on empowering women. Not to say that cases of "reverse-sexism" should be ignored, no, not at all, but they shouldn't be the thing people get outraged about. Visit Pakistan and Chad and Egypt and India and then tell me who needs justice.

While it's undeniable that women in such countries face real issues, it's a mistake to defer to feminism in thinking that that's what they need most. What they require are basic human rights, because in reality, the lives of men there aren't much better.


Alot of "female empowerment" policies are simply financial handouts. For example, most western universities have female-only scholarships for STEM programs. Is it realistic to expect men to see their female peers as equal when they're being handed money for basically having a vagina? I mean really, is that gonna help people see each other as equals? Not to mention that the justification of such scholarships even existing is incredibly weak and laughable.

 

[Nomanslander]

Okay, so I understand that this thread has been done about as many times as the "favorite game" poll, but I feel like its never been done WELL.

What are you talking about?
I've never seen a thread about this!
Most guys are too guilt ridden over schovenism that took place 2 generations ago to dare. And women even after women's lib now have no one better to look up to as a role model except the popular (degenerate) Kim Kardashians and Lady Gaga types of the world.

 

[OmniscientOstrich]

snip

snip

ummmmm.... because they are?

Christ, way to refute the validity of your own argument. Also, a lot of people bring up the divorce courts thing, but that's a rare exception to an otherwise very one-sided ratio of discrimination and nothing to warrant any kind of panic about the treatment of men when they have it easy in just about every other respect.

Acknowledging the fact that the average man is physically stronger and taller than the average woman refutes my validity in what way? If you have a problem with that, take it up with mother nature. If however, you're just projecting and assumed I was implying that women are somehow inferior because of that physical difference, then that's on you.


Oh, and "a rare exception?" In other words, you're ok with the blatant discrimination in divorce courts and how men are financially fucked over in such cases because, according to you, other areas of society are rampantly misogynistic? Classy.

One at a time, people. No, I'm not saying that I'm okay with people getting stripped of their visitation rights, their home and their money out of some sort of karmic balance, it's a legitamate issue that needs tackling. My problem lies within people who act as though the influence of progressive attitudes in society is somehow trigerring some kind of conspirational misandrist agenda against. The paranoid types who think that feminists are somehow out to get them. I'm going to take a wild guess and assume that anyone who has made of these kinds of threads, or legitimately believes that males have it just as bad or even worse than women are men themselves. Really, if your going to try and claim that the degree and frequency of sexism exhibited against men is equal to that committed against women you're either lying through your teeth or just fucking deluded. There are a minute number of cases of discrimination towards men, I'm not disputing that. But don't try to act like in the grand scheme of things that our struggle with these kinds of things is nearly as arduous as the kind of shit that women have to put up with.

 

[Panda Mania]

Here's what a lot of peeps don't realize:

Feminism is actually all about equal rights for men and women. Ideally, its sole aim is to have both genders treated equally, because females and males are of equal worth. And at the basis of feminism (and civil rights, and workers' rights, etc.) is this little thing called human rights.

Sexism, in all its many forms, views one gender as less, as not equal (and I'm not talking about physical traits here).

So, the conclusion: in their endeavors, feminists should always remember that they're rallying for equal rights for both men and women. HOWEVER, dear sir/madam, keep in mind that the vast majority (and I do mean vast--I'm speaking on a global scale here) of situations involve men marginalizing women. Think not of the petty lawsuits of favoritism here ("she's only the boss 'cause she's a woman!"), but of the dire conditions of millions of women around the world--women suffering economic oppression and brutal gender-based violence. Until this world finally, finally comes to treat women as equal, I think the focus should be on empowering women. Not to say that cases of "reverse-sexism" should be ignored, no, not at all, but they shouldn't be the thing people get outraged about. Visit Pakistan and Chad and Egypt and India and then tell me who needs justice.

(Sorry that came off so preachy It's kinda my issue...) Anyhoo, OT--that ad you described is mildly disturbing, I guess, but methinks it might be a case of the so-called War Between the Sexes, classic "boys drool, girls rule!" stuff. Tho that's not to say that media representation doesn't play a crucial role in shaping a culture! Movies and ads and such should be more sensitive on these issues.

So you're saying we should ignore issues because you prefer others? Perhaps I'm being a bit insane, but I don't think I can feel very sympathetic for a cause if they're insulting me. I may need to word that better, but the point stands. I do agree that it is awful how women are treated, and it sickens me.

Hmm. No, not ignore...

Well, like some have been saying, it's quite a sticky topic since people veer off into myopia rather than chase the ideal. Sexism against men is revolting in how it twists what feminists have been fighting for and exploits it to resemble something exactly the opposite of their aims. *sigh* By this point, at least in post-feminism countries, I'd almost like to say there needs to be a big re-labeling and re-directioning. Feminists? Masculinists? Psh, what we need is, erm, "equalists," people who work to put men and women on the same level wherever they happen to be working. In America, that would mean significant focus on sexism against men, easily seen in the legal arenas of divorce and child custody cases. And yeah, sexism against women, too, because it happens as well. I guess my previous post was just pointing out that in many countries, the focus would definitely be on sexism against women, because, well, that's just the way of life there, sadly.

 

[retyopy]

snip

snip

ummmmm.... because they are?

Christ, way to refute the validity of your own argument. Also, a lot of people bring up the divorce courts thing, but that's a rare exception to an otherwise very one-sided ratio of discrimination and nothing to warrant any kind of panic about the treatment of men when they have it easy in just about every other respect.

Acknowledging the fact that the average man is physically stronger and taller than the average woman refutes my validity in what way? If you have a problem with that, take it up with mother nature. If however, you're just projecting and assumed I was implying that women are somehow inferior because of that physical difference, then that's on you.


Oh, and "a rare exception?" In other words, you're ok with the blatant discrimination in divorce courts and how men are financially fucked over in such cases because, according to you, other areas of society are rampantly misogynistic? Classy.

One at a time, people. No, I'm not saying that I'm okay with people getting stripped of their visitation rights, their home and their money out of some sort of karmic balance, it's a legitamate issue that needs tackling. My problem lies within people who act as though the influence of progressive attitudes in society is somehow trigerring some kind of conspirational misandrist agenda against. The paranoid types who think that feminists are somehow out to get them. I'm going to take a wild guess and assume that anyone who has made of these kinds of threads, or legitimately believes that males have it just as bad or even worse than women are men themselves. Really, if your going to try and claim that the degree and frequency of sexism exhibited against men is equal to that committed against women you're either lying through your teeth or just fucking deluded. There are a minute number of cases of discrimination towards men, I'm not disputing that. But don't try to act like in the grand scheme of things that our struggle with these kinds of things is nearly as arduous as the kind of shit that women have to put up with.

Um... You'd be wrong there. Hi. I agree that woman have it far worse. I'm just voicing my opinion. Oh, and a "minute number of cases"? really? Do some research. Its probably far more apparent than you realize.

 

[ItsAChiaotzu]

One at a time, people. No, I'm not saying that I'm okay with people getting stripped of their visitation rights, their home and their money out of some sort of karmic balance, it's a legitamate issue that needs tackling. My problem lies within people who act as though the influence of progressive attitudes in society is somehow trigerring some kind of conspirational misandrist agenda against. The paranoid types who think that feminists are somehow out to get them. I'm going to take a wild guess and assume that anyone who has made of these kinds of threads, or legitimately believes that males have it just as bad or even worse than women are men themselves. Really, if your going to try and claim that the degree and frequency of sexism exhibited against men is equal to that committed against women you're either lying through your teeth or just fucking deluded. There are a minute number of cases of discrimination towards men, I'm not disputing that. But don't try to act like in the grand scheme of things that our struggle with these kinds of things is nearly as arduous as the kind of shit that women have to put up with.

Yeah, except no one has said that men have it as bad as or worse than women, people are just specifically talking about issues of sexism that men face, and then you decided to condescend all the men who've been raped, all the men who've been fucked in divorce courts and all the men who've suffered domestic abuse by just telling them to deal with it because women have it so much tougher. You really do make me feel ill.

 

[retyopy]

Settle down people. This is leading to a flame war. No one likes flame wars.

Although all of you are making valid points. Just try to do it more calmly.

 

[inquisiti0n]

One at a time, people. No, I'm not saying that I'm okay with people getting stripped of their visitation rights, their home and their money out of some sort of karmic balance, it's a legitamate issue that needs tackling. My problem lies within people who act as though the influence of progressive attitudes in society is somehow trigerring some kind of conspirational misandrist agenda against. The paranoid types who think that feminists are somehow out to get them. I'm going to take a wild guess and assume that anyone who has made of these kinds of threads, or legitimately believes that males have it just as bad or even worse than women are men themselves. Really, if your going to try and claim that the degree and frequency of sexism exhibited against men is equal to that committed against women you're either lying through your teeth or just fucking deluded. There are a minute number of cases of discrimination towards men, I'm not disputing that. But don't try to act like in the grand scheme of things that our struggle with these kinds of things is nearly as arduous as the kind of shit that women have to put up with.

I'm not playing "oppression olympics" here. Dunno what the other ppl you quoted wrote, but I'm not wasting time comparing who has it worse, though I still strongly disagree that women flatout have it worse.

You keep claiming that sexism against men is minute and insignificant, which is an attitude I've seen in a lot of feminists. Such feminists usually see these types of things as a zero sum game. They think exposure to men's issues takes attention away from feminist issues, and acknowledging false rape accusations takes attention away from actual rape, etc. First of all, nearly half of all marriages are now ending in divorce, right? So how can sexist divorce laws possibly be "minute?"

And please, address how it was wrong of me to say that the average woman is physically weaker. I just wanna know if you're one of those feminists who go so far as to ignore the physical differences between the sexes.

 

[Booradlee]

What if the positions were reversed? Two girls try to help a muscular, handsome man, but end up being ditzy and having to be helped by the manly man.

This is often referred to as the Pendulum effect, and many people believe it to b a good thing. The idea is to allow it to swing less and less over time. Hopefully one day it will reach the point where it *EDIT eventually stops.*

Feminism is the empowering of Women.
Not necessarily a bad thing. But it should not be continued on forever.

Egalitarianism's general premise is that people should be treated as equals on certain dimensions such as race, religion, ethnicity, sex, political affiliation, economic status, social status, and cultural heritage.

I only support Feminism in developing countries.
I support Egalitarianism in developed countries.