Sexism against men

[Haagrum]

This is interesting because, unlike what many people seem to assume, sexism against men and sexism against women is not mutually exclusive. Feminism seeks equality for women, and part of that is getting equality for men (sadly, in mainstream feminism it equality for men isn't such a big deal as it should be). Same goes with masculism (male feminism!), only the other way round.

In fact, sexism against both genders goes hand in hand. Women get portrayed as delicate flowers, and in conjunction, men become hulking emotionless brutes.

Couldn't agree more.

Having a binary view of sex and sexism doesn't help anyone, and neither does the "formal equality" argument that ignores cultural, economic and social factors by presuming that all men are con-conspirators in patriarchy and all women are victims. It's 1960s-style first-wave feminism and that view of the world should be consigned to the dustbin. Credible academic gender studies in the 21st century is generally much less concerned with recognising that men and women get treated differently than it is in figuring out why that still happens, and how it's happening now. Read some studies on teenage sexual behaviour and you'll see how staggeringly complex the gender-related issues are.

A lot of the more current research into gender and social stereotyping focuses on the unhealthy concepts and ideals about each sex. We probably know more about the factors shaping female self-conceptualisation and development, but largely because that's been the focus of more effort. New approaches to promoting "equality" are aimed largely at giving people the freedom to choose their path, rather than being expected to fit a stereotype.

The macho bullshit that men are socialised with and expected to swallow can harm them immensely. Men and boys are now under increasing image-related pressure, just as women and girls are (although I'll admit it's nowhere near as entrenched). How often does a male lead in a TV show or advert *not* have a waxed chest, solid pecs and six-pack abs? How many male posters on this forum have been belittled or humiliated for not being good at sports, or for being bookish/a nerd? It gets worse in terms of work-life balance and stress when men have a family - men don't have any other "valid" life choices other than provider and father in the stereotypical version of masculinity. Why are male suicide rates so much higher than female suicide rates in the Western world? It can't only be because of the Y chromosome and the hormones. In a lot of cases, it's because men burden themselves with particular expectations and are expected to be tough and not to display emotion, they rarely seek the help they need. I'm grossly oversimplifying a serious issue here, but I do it to make the point that it's never as simple as throwing mud at each other because the "other side" seems to get an advantage in some respect.

TL; DR - Focusing on issues of "men make more money on average" or "women get the kids more often" misses the real issue of why we treat people differently on the basis of sex. It's mind-blowingly complex and you can't boil it down to sex alone. Merely having a penis or a vagina doesn't dictate your life's direction, but it can greatly affect your odds of obtaining your goals in life without a hell of a lot more difficulty. Culture and media play a HUGE part in sustaining those barriers. And that's just not good enough.

 

[Haagrum]

Oh dear, people have really wrong ideas about sexism. Take a look into popular culture and tell me how that isn't sexist. (I know I'm going to get a lot of shit for this post...)

So as other people are much more eloquent than I, I'll just share some videos. Food for thought, maybe.

/tips hat

That said, I find the dichotomised TV representation of women as either hyper-competent author-fantasy-representing super-humans or distracted nagging machines (and men as either house-trained buffed-up sex idols or idiotic habitually-lying perverts) is just as offensive as the narrator finds the advertising in the last clip.

 

[BiscuitTrouser]

Yeaah...no, your arguments seemed to be isolated incidents as well as being particularly vague and thoroughly unconvincing. I really have no idea what's triggering this, but I swear I see more and more males, most prevelantly on the Internet bitching about this 'it's only sexist/racsit when a white man does it' and such other tripe. You really don't know how lucky you have it, so stop being so paranoid, notice that societal, media and corporate views towards minorities are still being held in lower regard, accept while there are a few double standards that favour women, far FAR more of them favour men and most of all....

Its not often but when men are raped and in the event we are brutally tortured and dismembered women seem to find this funny. I dont know why. This is what makes me angry.

Case and point. The event where that man got captured, tied up, force fed drugs, starved, and raped over and over and over for 4 days? Many women on TV and i knew and on the internet said this was hilarious.

That chat show where they laughed on tv (totally ok) about that man whos penis was chopped off and blended for wanted a divorce. When told it was sexist they went "its just different for men" [when they are brutally assaulted and dismembered]. This physically sickens me. The media seems ok with sexism toward men. To the extreme. Try and imagine a man laughing at a rape, sorry a kidnap imprisonment drugging serial rape, or an instance where a womans breasts were removed and blended in front of her on TELEVISION and it was APPROVED and ENCOURAGED. Can you? There would be fucking riots.

 

[Liudeius]

Yeah, but too many people are idiots who argue "being oppressed means you can do whatever the hell you want, even when you were not the victim of that oppression and the ones you are doing things to aren't the one's who oppressed your ancestors".

There is still sexism against women (although that pay thing I think might something to do with most of the fortune 500 being men rather than an actual difference in the salary of equal positions, I don't have any information to back that up so it's likely wrong though.)
But that doesn't mean there isn't sexism against men.

And what's up with everyone whining about sexual oppression of women? It's the opposite, men are so sexually obsessed with women, that women are expected, nearly forced, into being extremely sexual individuals. Why does a "strong" woman not only have to be a high ranking worker, but also have to show off her body?
A truly un-oppressed individual (regardless of race or gender) does whatever the hell they want as long as it doesn't harm others.

A housewife could be a "stronger", more self-guided woman than aforementioned office worker.

 

[Adrian Neyland]

I do consider the idea of feminism has stepped so far in the wrong direction, where white middle classes men are the only ones who are allowed to be the but of a joke, and if you look though history, white men have had it pretty easy so it seems ok to group them into group them into a stereotype, this isn't a huge problem right now, but the problem I see developing is the idea that as this stereotype becomes more socially acceptable it is more likely to be accepted as fact, and when stereotypes get accepted as fact things like the Holocaust in WWII happen. Seriously look it up, that is how the whole thing kicked off. I don't think that feminism would be to be insulting to the other side, male stereotypes can be equally as harmful, we just have to accept that people all can't be categorized into groups, people don't work that way. Anyway if you remove the societal pressures that make people act differently, men and women aren't really that different, this whole "Men are from Mars, Women are from Venus" bollocks is something we've imposed on ourselves as a society, once we take away all these homogenized groups we put on people so we can try to better understand the way they act and predict their future actions, we will better as a society.

 

[LuckyClover95]

Okay, so I understand that this thread has been done about as many times as the "favorite game" poll, but I feel like its never been done WELL. So I'm going to take a shot at it, and see if I can do it justice.

ok, so I was watching spongebob because my Dad hates that show and I wanted to spite him. Anyway, a commercial came up for some shoes, were a bunch of boys were in a soccer match with a bunch of generic girls, and the mascot says sarcastically, "ready to give up, girls?" Then, one of the generic girls, which is meant to represent girls in general, remember,cheats by turning off the lights, at which point the boys shoes light up bla bla bla. But the general potrayal of girls is as weak, cheating, epic fail prone losers, whereas the boys are strong, athletic, great, fabulous, athletes. Pretty bad, right?

But I'm lying. The genders are switched around. So it has to be equally bad.

All I'm saying is that there has to be a double standard. Otherwise, men will be being called perverts if they so much as glance at a woman. Plus, you do realise that men are raped too? Why isn't THAT big news?

Another example is a movie that came out a few months ago, and did reasonably well. It was about two men trying to help a hot girl, but they end up having to be helped by her. What if the positions were reversed? Two girls try to help a muscular, handsome man, but end up being ditzy and having to be helped by the manly man.

You have to consider stuff like this, because if you only pay attention to one side of an argument, the world would die.

EDIT: So apparently, people seem to think that I'm anti-feminist. This is wrong. I am simply pointing out that you have to pay attention to both ends of the spectrum. There is a lot of work to do on both sides, and I'm just trying to help.

I'm a woman and I completely agree. There's another current thread where I ranted about sexism. It sounds weird, but I don't like guys who say they won't hit a girl - I should probably appreciate, you know, not being hit, but I don't like the reasons behind it. I don't like that girls can hit guys and get away with it.
I hate the men should pay for things idea, women wanting a good man to look after them, when women want equality.
JennaMarbles (who I love) says it perfectly:
In concerning male rape, while they are both terrible, you hear about male rape a lot more as it is easier for a man to rape. Women who rape often get worse sentences because it requires them to probably drug the man and be more tactical.

 

[retyopy]

Except it's not always males. I've experienced woman saying that the way other woman are treated by men in other countries is awful, all the while sitting on a comfortable couch, watching tv.

I was under the impression that we were discussing the situation within our nations of residence. The ones that we can actually draw experience from and adequately assess the current state of affairs for. That's the thing that annoys me, people who complain of mistreatment of gender when they have had no experience of this themselves, or have seen it happen to those around them.

Erm, yes, so I assume that you are absolutely drowning in sexism on a daily basis. And don't give any of that "never experiencd" bull. Talk to my mother for five minutes and you'll see what I mean.

 

[Hagi]

Great post. My thanks and respect for sharing that. Overall I agree with you but there's one point I want to make.

Feminism:
- the theory of the political, economic, and social equality of the sexes
- a movement for social, cultural, political and economic equality of men and women.
- a collection of movements aimed at defining, establishing, and defending equal political, economic, and social rights and equal opportunities for women.

That's what feminism is. That's English. If you use the word feminism and are not referring to these definitions then you aren't speaking English.

Anyone who feels men are the enemy is, by definition, not a feminist. Feminism means social equality, if men are viewed as the enemy while women are not then there's no social equality and therefore it's not feminism.

Anyone who feels being male is a bad thing is, by definition, not a feminist. Feminism means cultural equality, if being male is bad while being female is not then there's no cultural equality and therefore it's not feminism.

Anyone who feels all men oppress women is, by definition, not a feminist. Feminism means political equality, if all men are viewed as politically the same while all women are not then there's no political equality and therefore it's not feminism.

Everyone who feels women deserve more rights of any kind or special treatment of any kind is by very definition not a feminist. They can call themselves whatever they want, but that doesn't make it so. I can call myself a communist all day long but if I support private property whenever possible then the only thing I am is a hypocrite.

That's what these women who call themselves feminists and view men as the enemy and oppressors and male as bad are, hypocrites. They are possibly misandrists as well. What they're certainly not is feminists.

Misandry: The hatred or dislike of men or boys.

 

[Hamish Durie]

well this reminds me of the thread awhile back where 3 year 11 girls held down and stipped a year 8 bot and they received no punishment
now had the sexs beem reversed well the boys wouldn't see the light of day again
but

You ever try and balance a pencil on your finger?

 

[retyopy]

And I stand by my point that just because its on a smaller scale, it can't be ignored. But I see what you're coming from.

I was about to come take your side until I saw you settled it peacefully.

Anyway, I agree with you, it pains me to see incredibly ignorant and aggressive "feminists" who more rightfully suit the definition of "supremacist."

No, no, no, you're seeing it wrong, I'm not saying that feminists are like that, (although some are), not at all. I agree with feminism, I just think there actaully is a lot of sexism against men.

 

[retyopy]

Snip

What does this have to do with anything? I understand that stereotypes have been brought up, but try to link it to the thread in some way.

Because stereotypes largely underlie the sexist acts that we are debating.
The stereotype of men as poor parents has led to a bias against awarding men custody. A lingering lack of respect for women has left many fields male dominated.

To address the third world, the men there are justified in forcing sex upon women, in some cases. I knew a Kenyan woman who said you could be caned in the street for anything a man felt like caning you for. That isn't sexism, that is complete lack of human rights enforcement, and the physically superior have forced their will in the absence of a dominant legal body to change it. I don't mean that women aren't violently and disgustingly oppressed, its just not the same situation as first world countries and the solutions are wildly different.

Also, until my full 19 years of life as a straight white male is transferred directly to someones brain, I will continue to disregard claims of privilege. I am poor as dirt, the only help I get for college is grants, based on my(SMALL) income. I haven't been taunted in the streets or caned, but then again I don't know an American woman who has been either. In fact, if I look around, I know a LOT more men working 3 minimum wage jobs trying to make child support, than I do women who even get called names. Hell, the RM for my store? Female. 5/7 of my managers at all? Female. Bosses at previous jobs? ALL female. And I live in nothing like an enlightened area.

Then why didn't you just say that? No need to overcomplicate.

 

[retyopy]

As usual, I blame the neuro-typicals for these idiotic social prejudices and how hard it is to have a decent discussion about them.

The problem that always comes up in these debates is that there are two fundamentally different types of sexism that we need to separate in order to get anything done.

1.) Institutional discrimination. Laws that explicitly favor one gender over another, imbalanced hiring and promotion practices, unequal pay, etc. This has mostly been corrected (note the word "mostly", neuro-typicals often seem incapable of understanding it) in the past several decades, and what remains (in the US, anyway) is primarily a bi-product of social prejudice rather than actual policy. This can cause problems for both men and women (fewer women in technology and executive positions, men have a hard time getting jobs working with children or touching people). This is not usually what people are talking about in thread like this.

2.) social discrimination. Prejudices held by the majority of society. These mostly take the form of stereotypes which are propagated through the mass-media. they often inform peoples' actions and can effect everything from hiring practices to the outcomes of trials. Both genders have advantages and disadvantages distributed about equally in this area, although problems for women receive the lions-share of media and academic attention (this is a side-effect of the movement to end the severe institutional discrimination against women, which produced the terminology with which we have these discussions). This is what people are talking about in these threads (if they aren't retarded).

I would also like to remind everyone that we high-functioning autistics, regardless of gender, face more and worse discrimination than either gender and receive absolutely no attention or sympathy for it.

That out of the way, I would like to say that a double standard absolutely exists in media, although it is sometimes in favor of men and sometimes of women, depending on the situation. The imbalance comes from the fact that people have trained themselves to be far more alert and sympathetic when the bias is against women.

To give a relatively recent example, last year there was an episode of the TV show "Castle" in which the running joke was that no one would rape a man because "all you have to do is ask", implying that no man would ever refuse sex. This would have never been allowed to air if the genders were reversed in that situation. As someone once said (I forget who it was or where I read it) "if you're watching a movie and a man rapes a woman, he's the worst bastard ever and Bruce Willis will put a bullet through his head in the third act. If a woman rapes a man, then you're watching a wacky romantic comedy". Regrettably, it's accurate far more often than not.

This is not to say that women don't also face serious problems as a result of double standards, just that they are not unique in being subject to them. The problem is further compounded by the fact that people tend only to notice discrimination against them or in favor of another, never discrimination against another or in favor of them.

Edit: Also, "feminism" is not a meaningful term in a contemporary context. What was once a semi-unified movement has fragmented and spread into a myriad of conflicting ideologies all claiming the same name (not unlike some religions). There is no longer any reasonable standard by which we can define what is or is not "feminist", so the term has become empty and subject to a range of interpretations to wide to be useful in anything but misdirection. Stop using it if you want people to understand you.

*laughs* I like your style (that quote about Bruce Willis is the funniest thing I've heard all week). And you make very astute points about institutional discrimination and social discrimination, the latter of which is infinitely more complex and lands in the messy but fascinating field of "culture, gender, and sexuality."

I know this really isn't that kind of thread, but I feel like you deserve one of those "YOU WIN THREAD!" distinctions.

Why the hell do we need a disticntion? YOU WIN THREAD!

 

[RedFortune]

(First post! Yay!)

Adding my two cents here, probably just rambling, and anything following is opinion.

There are problems with gender roles in modern society. Both genders face unrealistic and quite frankly stupidly powerful expectations as to what kind of person they should be.
There is a lot of very intriguing debate on nature versus nurture in the development of personality, and I find some merit in the claim that the sexes do have inherent biological influences on their psychological development, but the role of social interaction is the major driving factor on who we turn out to be (this is just my opinion, remember).

While there are many concerning expectations of girls, I am much more frightened with the impacts of our society's social state on the personality of adolescent boys and ultimately their traits as men. It is percieved as desirable that a man does not show any emotions externally; stoicism and strong will are certainly desirable traits, but the way it works in the school system is much different, as it turns into more of an emotional barrier to meaningful development. Naturally, this is perpetuated in school environments, but ultimate driving forces are elsewhere in media and deep in history.

The problem is that this masking leads to the development of men who aren't emotionally intelligent at all, knowing only the rules on how to display oneself in front of peers. It can manifest, then, in several different ways: a huge amount of bottled emotion can lead to an unstable and insecure person, prone to breakdown, or violent outbursts, and it can also make a man become dulled to emotions in general. The second of those two is more scary, to me: you end up with someone who may feel much empathy or feeling, and doesn't understand that as such... In the extreme, you now have a psychopath.

Psychopathy is defined as a person who feels little empathy or emotional connection with others, while externally seeming normal; that alone is obviously concerning, as such a person is not beneficial to the overall social health of society, but when put into circumstances of opportunity to do things we consider wrong and evil, restraint is lacking. This, I believe, is how "evil" men continue to be what seems prevalent in our culture. The fact of the matter is, though, that it's not necessarily these peoples' faults... They don't know any better, it's what they've learnt. Do people who do bad things really look at themselves in the mirror and think "Haha, I'm doing no benefit to anybody in society! I am a horrible person! I am the greatest!" at the end of the day? No. Life isn't a novel, or a movie.

After going on that tangent I don't know much else to say. I'd like to verify that I do not believe it's something simple that applies to all men. I also do not state that the same pressures never occur on future women, either. I just find the ancient social constructs such as this to be something we really need to cast off, as there will always be people who will fall prey to these rather shallow expectations.

I know it's not really about sexism against males... But I felt it needed to be said. It's a valid, negative impact on men and the health of our culture, and can create the kind of chauvinistic idiots we deplore today and throughout history.

Oh my god it's late.

 

[spartandude]

People justify the double standards that exist against men with two words "Man up"

for some reason while it is fine to help women who are suffering (which it is right to help them) it isnt right to help a man (they also need help)

 

[derbt]

Women fought for equality for 50+ years. And yet a women still gets priority over a child in a devorce.

That is actually to do with sexism against women, but negatively impacts men as well. A woman's primary role is still seen to be that of a mother. Women are supposedly the care-takers, while men are not, and being a mother is a woman's role in life. (Please note - I do not believe this at all. It's just the general opinion.)

Also, regarding the issue of rape, very few rape cases are publicised. Most rapes are not reported, and even those that are, are kept mostly quiet. Only rape stories considered 'sensational' tend to receive media attention. The assertion that stories of male rape not being publicised is false - have you heard any Church news lately? Priests fiddling with boys is quite a popular topic.

 

[LightspeedJack]

Woman cuts off a man's penis she is applauded and called "fabulous" by the morons on the view (Not making this up) and his crime? He wanted to divorce his wife.

Switch the gender roles. Yes sexism is alive and well.

 

[Simonism451]

In concerning male rape, while they are both terrible, you hear about male rape a lot more as it is easier for a man to rape. Women who rape often get worse sentences because it requires them to probably drug the man and be more tactical.

They do? I'm kind of sceptic on the "get worse sentences" part, since this would be the first time I heard about it (though admittedly I'm not an expert on rape),but if you have sources, I would be genuinely interested.

Edit: A fine example of Double Standards can be found on this thread here http://www.escapistmagazine.com/forums/read/18.305166-Poll-Female-babysitter-charged-for-having-sex-with-14-year-old-boy?page=26#12266364
(I'm not that upset about the case itself, since here in germany age of consent is fourteen anyway, the reactions along the line of "Since she's hot and a girl it's okay and she is only needs to find some boys her age (at least mentally followed by something along the lines of 'like myself')" just show perfectly how deeply rooted the stereotypes of the always horny male are. (Bonus points for the unfortunate implications, that the only thing the girl needs 'is a good stiff one' to adjust her sexual preferences. Imagine someone saying that the only thing a (male) child molester needs is some good quality pussy to show him the right way. Okay, I got distracted.

 

[LuckyClover95]

In concerning male rape, while they are both terrible, you hear about male rape a lot more as it is easier for a man to rape. Women who rape often get worse sentences because it requires them to probably drug the man and be more tactical.

They do? I'm kind of sceptic on the "get worse sentences" part, since this would be the first time I heard about it (though admittedly I'm not an expert on rape),but if you have sources, I would be genuinely interested.

I'm afraid I don't have sources, my friend just said that, I trust her to be right but I can't find sources.
If I came across as saying that female rape is worse or something by the way, I didn't mean to. I only said this because the OP said you never hear of women raping. I think all rapists are rapists, and all rapists are equally bad, however it would be interesting to see whether people thought deceptive, planned rape (which is the rape most women rapists do, even if it's rare) or grab-a-passer-by rape was worse. Also I don't consider rape with consensual underagers rape, I think it's a different matter.
Don't know if you live in the UK but you might have heard of this guy, caused a lot of controversy - http://www.newstatesman.com/blogs/the-staggers/2011/05/justice-secretary-rape-clarke

 

[Simonism451]

I'm afraid I don't have sources, my friend just said that, I trust her to be right but I can't find sources.
If I came across as saying that female rape is worse or something by the way, I didn't mean to. I only said this because the OP said you never hear of women raping. I think all rapists are rapists, and all rapists are equally bad, however it would be interesting to see whether people thought deceptive, planned rape (which is the rape most women rapists do, even if it's rare) or grab-a-passer-by rape was worse. Also I don't consider rape with consensual underagers rape, I think it's a different matter.
Don't know if you live in the UK but you might have heard of this guy, caused a lot of controversy - http://www.newstatesman.com/blogs/the-staggers/2011/05/justice-secretary-rape-clarke

No, you didn't come across as that, it was just the first time I heard about it and the general opinion of the people seems to be along the lines of "Lol, give him (the raped) a high five for scoring" or "Boy, what a pussy for getting owned by a chick" and since judges are only people too and far away from standing above prejudices I would have expected milder sentences.
Is consentual sex with minors actually considered "rape" in the UK? (As far as I know, the german (which is where I live) juridical system counts it as an own sort of crime.)

 

[LuckyClover95]

I'm afraid I don't have sources, my friend just said that, I trust her to be right but I can't find sources.
If I came across as saying that female rape is worse or something by the way, I didn't mean to. I only said this because the OP said you never hear of women raping. I think all rapists are rapists, and all rapists are equally bad, however it would be interesting to see whether people thought deceptive, planned rape (which is the rape most women rapists do, even if it's rare) or grab-a-passer-by rape was worse. Also I don't consider rape with consensual underagers rape, I think it's a different matter.
Don't know if you live in the UK but you might have heard of this guy, caused a lot of controversy - http://www.newstatesman.com/blogs/the-staggers/2011/05/justice-secretary-rape-clarke

No, you didn't come across as that, it was just the first time I heard about it and the general opinion of the people seems to be along the lines of "Lol, give him (the raped) a high five for scoring" or "Boy, what a pussy for getting owned by a chick" and since judges are only people too and far away from standing above prejudices I would have expected milder sentences.
Is consentual sex with minors actually considered "rape" in the UK? (As far as I know, the german (which is where I live) juridical system counts it as an own sort of crime.)

I don't know too much about the laws surrounding sex with a minor in the UK, however I have heard the rather amusing term "consensual rape" being used.
And as to your previous point, I can imagine that happening. Back to double standards here