Sexsim: have the tables actually turned?

[Vault101]

men have no idea with what kind of shit woman has to deal and vice versa.

so we can sit here, and "discuss" but the only thing we can hope to achieve here is a flame war.

every time both genders get to the middle of balance, somebody tips the scales in favor of one gender. deal with it - it wont go away.

Seems like at least one person in this thread is intelligent...
Seriously, I had this discussion at school some time ago. I was just listening until the end. I couldn't shake the feeling that the women did not understand what "equality" means.
For them "equality" means "getting what they want". <- Not being sexist here, let me clarify this giving an example:
It was all about that the law should enforce that there are more parking lots only for women, there are x% companies with women as chefs,...
I told them that "equality" does not mean "getting what they want".
They called me a sexists.
Then I asked them why they aren't fighting for equality in some other aspects...lets say military service. Why don't they fight for women being forced to do it too when they are over 18?
They had no answer...

It comes down to:
Neither gender has an idea of how it is for the other one to deal with its own problems.

wait..so if they want "women only" parking bays does that mean that all the "regular" parking bays are automatically men only or at least preference for men....or do they feel they would have right to both?

in a way isnt that implying that being a women is some kind of disability?...*facepalm*

ok for this to make any logical sense...mabye parking bays for families/parents...but even then....*sigh* dammit! thease peopel are idiots!

 

[oppp7]

No, we aren't. Women still have to deal with shit that men don't have to, and you can't say the same about the opposite. I have no idea why everyone on the internet is so against feminism.

Well, men aren't that well off either. The mortality rate of males from 15-19 is twice as high compared to women, while from the ages of 20-24 it is three times as high (even though women have to live with the dangers and complexities of child-birth).[footnote]http://www.mbl.is/mm/gagnasafn/grein.html?grein_id=566292[/footnote]Then theres also incarceration and drug abuse rates, which are much, much higher when it comes to men than women.

All of this stems from the fact that there is a lot of negative and outright dangerous aspects to conforming with the traditional male gender-role, which includes dealing with emotional and psychological issues by repressing them (which is ostensibly the reason why more men are committed to mental hospitals and institutions than women) and being reckless to the point that it kills you.

And this is no secret, its been well documented with countless of studies and collections of data that prove that men suffer much more from physical, emotional and psychological issues than women, all of which can be easily connected to the typical stereotype of "man"

Not sure where I stand on that. I mean, a lot of this stuff could be avoided by ignoring the stereotype, but on the other, I'm not stupid enough to believe you can just throw out emotions and refuse to act on them anymore. But it probably does count for something so you can't just throw out their responsibility.

Also, is there a non-German version?

 

[Vault101]

I dont know...pregnacy can screw with your life in alot of unpleasant ways (mostly if it isnt planned)

Sorry if I sound harsh, but if you get pregnant without wanting it, it's your fault.
Don't get me wrong, sometimes it actually is an accident, but there are enough ways to prevent pregnancy and they are pretty reliable. I don't know the exact number, but how high is the chance to get pregnant if the girl takes birth control pills and the guy uses a condom? It will be something over 98%, maybe 99% to have both failing at the same time.

that is true...

in the end I supose most of the time pregancy is a choice...while a hernia isnt

 

[Weaver]

It just irks me when a <woman/visible minority> get's a job over a better candidate simply because they are a woman or visible minority and not because they could actually preform the job better. I've seen this a few times in my jobs as a computer programmer (a field dominated by men). If you're a woman you can damn well nearly just waltz into almost any position so long as you preform at least mediocore on the testing portion of the interview.

 

[IndomitableSam]

It just irks me when a <woman/visible minority> get's a job over a better candidate simply because they are a woman or visible minority and not because they could actually preform the job better. I've seen this a few times in my jobs as a computer programmer (a field dominated by men). If you're a woman you can damn well nearly just waltz into almost any position so long as you preform at least mediocore on the testing portion of the interview.

And my point was, a man can do the same in my line of work (Libraries). All depends on the situation.

 

[oppp7]

Breast cancer? And I doubt hernias are worse than pregnancy.
The second... I'd ask for sources but I didn't use any either (aside from Wikipedia). So I guess that's a draw?
Again, we're both talking out our asses.
I meant that women are always shown as highly sexualized in pretty much everything. You could say the same for men, but I don't think women are as ok about all their role models shown with huge boobs as men are with theirs with muscles (also, I've heard that overmuscled guys aren't that attractive to women, and that girls are attracted to asses anyways).
Special note on Don Imus: Agree that that was stupid. I think the thing was that he had said worse and "nappy headed hoes" was the straw that broke the camels back. Also, that may have been about racism as much as sexism.

[li]Biology can't be sexist and to bring that into an argument about equality is just plain idiotic.[/li]
[li]I've never seen a source to say that women earn less than men, even if I did then I'd be very skeptical of it too. There is a very good chance that the stats could be argued away with people work different hours, people work different jobs and people work to a different standard. If more men work to a better standard and a therefore paid more then it'll show up in the stats and appear as sexist.[/li]
[li]Women have been and always will be sexualized, it's in our nature to do that. Women do it all the time too and it is in no way wrong, you're allowed to look at each other and feel horny without feeling guilty for it. It isn't a sexism issue at all.[/li]

OT: In some ways. I couldn't list them right now, but men and women are both judged by gender so I guess you could say we are, in a way, equal.

1. The OP asked if women still had it worse than men, that's the mindset I was in, not sexism. I guess that's my bad, but it's the argument I was going for.
2. The second part of your argument is true (there are a lot of reasons suggested for the difference and no one can decide on one) but it does exist and that's what I was mostly saying (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gender_Wage_Gap_in_the_United_States, if you don't trust Wikipedia just use the citations on the page).
3. I get disgusted by naked/near naked guys. I may be projecting but I could imagine women feeling the same way about seeing sexualized women (which I think is more common than sexualized men(anime, MMOs...)). Not sure if that counts (can think of 2 counterarguments to this paragraph), but it's what I think anyways.

 

[oppp7]

No, we aren't. Women still have to deal with shit that men don't have to, and you can't say the same about the opposite. I have no idea why everyone on the internet is so against feminism.

Rights of parenthood, full stop. Especially in cases where the man has been the primary carer, and became a 'househusband' because it 1) made financial sense and 2) both agreed to it. A shocking amount of the time the woman appears to loose respect for the man and ends up in divorce. A lot of the time the man only gets to see their child only once every other weekend. One particularly lucky man I read about managed to get a 50/50 split.

Wait wait wait, so women offer to take the kids off their hands and they COMPLAIN? What the hell?

On a less ignorant joke note, most of what you said is true, but the reason could be that househusbands wouldn't be able to suddenly take care of their kid as effectively if he had a low paying job before and now lost the largest source of income. I'd need to see rates of housewives getting their kids to compare, though.

 

[oppp7]

No, no you don't. This is a very stupid discussion that you guys keep having here and, frankly, it's amazingly annoying.

It seems to stem from a really weird, immature notion about "fairness", as in "hey, no fair", which really is dissociated from reality's *actual* inequalities and biases. You know what kids? Study and work hard and try not to be assholes (protip: you're currently doing it wrong). I guarantee that if you're half competent your life will never, ever EVER be impacted in any way by any sort of policy targeted at alleviating discrimination. I'll bet money on it.

But internet arguments are fun, and I haven't had any for a while.

I agree though, and most of the reason I'm arguing for women is that as a guy I've never had any sexism or biological problems related to my gender so all these people on here seem like they just have a victim complex. And yes, I know how bad an assumption that is.

 

[The Unworthy Gentleman]

OT: In some ways. I couldn't list them right now, but men and women are both judged by gender so I guess you could say we are, in a way, equal.

1. The OP asked if women still had it worse than men, that's the mindset I was in, not sexism. I guess that's my bad, but it's the argument I was going for.
2. The second part of your argument is true (there are a lot of reasons suggested for the difference and no one can decide on one) but it does exist and that's what I was mostly saying (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gender_Wage_Gap_in_the_United_States, if you don't trust Wikipedia just use the citations on the page).
3. I get disgusted by naked/near naked guys. I may be projecting but I could imagine women feeling the same way about seeing sexualized women (which I think is more common than sexualized men(anime, MMOs...)). Not sure if that counts (can think of 2 counterarguments to this paragraph), but it's what I think anyways.[/quote]

I think 1 and 2 are resolved and, for the most part, 3 is too. I wouldn't call that a sexist issue either, but if we're going for a broader perspective then I suppose it is a bit more of a problem. It's just one other thing we don't like that we deal with, though, there's no use trying to change it because it's a minor thing that doesn't really affect much other than a brief few minutes. It's more of a personal problem so it has to be dealt with on a personal level.

 

[Weaver]

It just irks me when a <woman/visible minority> get's a job over a better candidate simply because they are a woman or visible minority and not because they could actually preform the job better. I've seen this a few times in my jobs as a computer programmer (a field dominated by men). If you're a woman you can damn well nearly just waltz into almost any position so long as you preform at least mediocore on the testing portion of the interview.

And my point was, a man can do the same in my line of work (Libraries). All depends on the situation.

Then allow me to re-state my opinion:
In any field where the aptitude of the candidate is testable, the gender or race of the candidate should play absolutely no part in the decision to hire them.

I don't care if a fast food restaraunt has a full equal opportunity employment hiring policy because, by and large, these are not professional positions. You don't need a degree or training to flip a hamburger.

On the professional side, if you can present an accountant with a mock up of a financial audit with known holes in it the highest scoring candidate should get the job.

 

[Polite Sage]

Finland, compulsory military service (6-12 months) or civil service (12 months) or 1 year in jail. Only for men. Happy choosing.

And there are less socially acceptable things men can do.
F.ex.
woman wears pants = totally OK
man wears a skirt or kilt of some sort = FULL-HOMO

women can act dominant or submissive,
men can only act dominant or THEY ARE PUSSIES

woman of any age around small children = oh, she must be their relative
average/old aged male around small children = PEDOPHILE, CALL THE POLICE!

girl masturbates / watches porn / has strange fetishes = she is exploring her body/sexuality
boy masturbates / watches porn / has strange fetishes = filthy pervert, future sexual criminal

And this

Rights of parenthood, full stop.

etc.

I'm not saying women don't receive any discrimination (I know they do), but when I confront feminists about discrimination against men, they blame me for being a chauvinist pig. Many don't want to admit that sexism goes both ways.

 

[Aurora Firestorm]

Haven't we had a thread like this in the past month? No, men are not being horribly persecuted over all, but I believe women aren't either. In various job circles (read: the tech industry, etc.), women still have to catch up, but I think this is mostly due to Old Veteran Employees not having retired yet and freed up slots for the middle guys to move up and open lower positions for the chicks. I'm in one of those companies; we have a zillion old men, and the interns had more women by percentage than probably the entire rest of the company.

Anyway, women have some suck, and men have some suck. There are the crazy types who think we should now be punishing men for what they did throughout history; I think this is crap, and I think most of America at least, agrees.

And the people here complaining about Affirmative Action/"women only get jobs because they're women" etc. -- are probably pissed about getting beat out to a position by a woman who was legit qualified, unless you're in one of the very rare traditionally female-dominated industries. The world doesn't hate men, guys, chill out.

We all just need time for the Boomers to retire, and it'll be okay, guys.


And just 'cause I feel like addressing Darkmind:

All the stuff you're talking about sucks, but to fix that, you're going to have to show that men aren't the vast majority of violent criminals (they are) and active pedophiles (they are) and also that strange men aren't most of what commits crimes in dark alleys against women and children (they are). People have learned to fear men. It sucks, but that's pretty much what all of that comes from. Men *are* biologically stronger than women, and *do* tend to be violent more often, and as such, people will assume a man is a threat. Is this good? No. Is this sexism? I'd call it paranoia before I'd call it sexism per se, although it has a lot of overlap.

Some would argue that military service is quite a privilege. If they draft in America, I will wave my fist for women being taken also, because it's not fair for the men or for us, in different ways. (Women get to stay home, sure, but what this is really saying is that women can't carry the packs and guns and fight like everyone else.)

 

[oppp7]

OT: In some ways. I couldn't list them right now, but men and women are both judged by gender so I guess you could say we are, in a way, equal.

1. The OP asked if women still had it worse than men, that's the mindset I was in, not sexism. I guess that's my bad, but it's the argument I was going for.
2. The second part of your argument is true (there are a lot of reasons suggested for the difference and no one can decide on one) but it does exist and that's what I was mostly saying (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gender_Wage_Gap_in_the_United_States, if you don't trust Wikipedia just use the citations on the page).
3. I get disgusted by naked/near naked guys. I may be projecting but I could imagine women feeling the same way about seeing sexualized women (which I think is more common than sexualized men(anime, MMOs...)). Not sure if that counts (can think of 2 counterarguments to this paragraph), but it's what I think anyways.

I think 1 and 2 are resolved and, for the most part, 3 is too. I wouldn't call that a sexist issue either, but if we're going for a broader perspective then I suppose it is a bit more of a problem. It's just one other thing we don't like that we deal with, though, there's no use trying to change it because it's a minor thing that doesn't really affect much other than a brief few minutes. It's more of a personal problem so it has to be dealt with on a personal level.

Agreed. And thanks for not dragging this out, I'm getting tired of this topic >_>.

 

[kebab4you]

No, we aren't. Women still have to deal with shit that men don't have to, and you can't say the same about the opposite. I have no idea why everyone on the internet is so against feminism.

You mean the same people that say you can't be sexist against men? That feminism movement? T.T"

OT: I think we are hitting a point where women get a job before men not just because we lack females but because it´s the "right thing to do". So yeah worst of as a man(1st world country).

Edit: Whops sorry, didn't see you had replied a lot already.

 

[Chemical Alia]

I dont know...pregnacy can screw with your life in alot of unpleasant ways (mostly if it isnt planned)

Sorry if I sound harsh, but if you get pregnant without wanting it, it's your fault.
Don't get me wrong, sometimes it actually is an accident, but there are enough ways to prevent pregnancy and they are pretty reliable. I don't know the exact number, but how high is the chance to get pregnant if the girl takes birth control pills and the guy uses a condom? It will be something over 98%, maybe 99% to have both failing at the same time.

You know what sucks? Shelling out $40 a month on birth control pills that you have to take at the same exact time every day during your adult life, that also make you put on 5-10 pounds. Pregnancy is nasty, but I can't think of something equally as annoying or expensive that guys have to do to avoid it as the pill.

It just irks me when a <woman/visible minority> get's a job over a better candidate simply because they are a woman or visible minority and not because they could actually preform the job better. I've seen this a few times in my jobs as a computer programmer (a field dominated by men). If you're a woman you can damn well nearly just waltz into almost any position so long as you preform at least mediocore on the testing portion of the interview.

Well, you never really know the actual reason someone got a job over you. At the same time, it's not too pleasant when you yourself have to wonder if the job you have was earned by the merit of your skill and not just your gender. All I know about when I got hired (at a AAA game studio, so males in the vast majority), is that a lot of the guys were upset that they might have to change their desktop backgrounds in my office or watch the tone of their conversations around me. None of that stuff actually matters to me, but I felt a little uncomfortable knowing that I was starting off in such an outsider's position and a potential disruptor of other peoples' comfort zones.

 

[jawakiller]

Biggest source of inequality among the sexes? One word: Boobs.

They have them, we don't.

Well actually if you're like me and sat in your mother's womb for a week or so too long... Lets just say that it sucks cause you get both guys and gals fucking joking about it all the time/grabbing at them for no other reason than being a guy with breast tissue... Men do not want boobs on a mass scale -_-

I feel the need to qualify the statement I made above. When I used the illustrious term "boobs" I was clearly referring to the beautiful creations that females today are traditionally in possession of. I was, however, not talking in regards to the abomination known as "man boobs." These, in my opinion, are not valuable as far as market value go and will most likely never obtain the popularity that their gorgeous sister has found...

Actually, I wasn't talking about boobs but a woman's body. It's value is much higher then than that of the male's. This is an exact opposite to the historical system where an able-bodied man was worth way more than a female of the same health. Men still retain some of their value due to their higher performance in combat situations (sorry ladies) and extremely heavy labor but these two skills are becoming less and less valuable as technology takes over. Women also have an advantage due to their, um, "feminine" qualities.

So put simply, technology is taking the male-exclusive jobs, women are taking traditional male (but not gender specific) jobs and the mexicans be takin everybody's job...