Sexsim: have the tables actually turned?

[oppp7]

No, no you don't. This is a very stupid discussion that you guys keep having here and, frankly, it's amazingly annoying.

It seems to stem from a really weird, immature notion about "fairness", as in "hey, no fair", which really is dissociated from reality's *actual* inequalities and biases. You know what kids? Study and work hard and try not to be assholes (protip: you're currently doing it wrong). I guarantee that if you're half competent your life will never, ever EVER be impacted in any way by any sort of policy targeted at alleviating discrimination. I'll bet money on it.

But internet arguments are fun, and I haven't had any for a while.

I agree though, and most of the reason I'm arguing for women is that as a guy I've never had any sexism or biological problems related to my gender so all these people on here seem like they just have a victim complex. And yes, I know how bad an assumption that is.

Agreed on all counts but, man, so much out there that is legitimately available for discussion and people latch on to this? That's just frustrating.

Every time I go onto the politics thread it always involves either A: religious arguments that I don't care for B: politics involving current events that I haven't kept track of lately, or C: economics, which is too complex. And as for other news, most of it would be filled with either the same responses and a troll argument or everyone arguing about opinion. I know this is a repeat thread (I've even posted on it before), it's the most entertaining one I saw.

 

[Imperioratorex Caprae]

Some women want equality. Some want superiority.

Here's the skinny... In this society, the "oppressed" person feels that if they can't get ahead in society, whether due to circumstances (i.e. lack of space for promotion), personal prowess, or the third option: personal reasons, some of them feel they are entitled to it. These people push for "equality" which really means "I deserve more than you because I'm x". Not all women or ethnic groups fall into that category, but there are a lot of them. Not a majority, but usually the most vocal aren't the ones who experience real discrimination.
Perceived discrimination happens on a daily basis. A woman may be passed over for a promotion that actually goes to a more qualified man, gets mad about it and cries that its because she's a woman. In most places job promotions are handed out by merit, and some people just are better than others at the job. This also calls into play the "I think I'm better at my job" psychological aspect when the person may not be. I forget the actual term but it happens regularly.
Not saying this is every woman out there, but when women cry about equality, then demand what actually constitutes favoritism, then there is a problem.
Case in point, men tend to talk about sex a lot. They tell dirty jokes, make sexually orientated references, all in the spirit of good humor (to a man). Women wanted equality in the workplace, then are shocked when they're hired and the men talk about sex, or boobs or things like that. But on the flip side, when women yak about how hot Brad Pitt is, or make innuendos about men in general its ok. Point being, there's a lot more going for women than there is for men in the workplace. Its not about equality. If it was, then we'd all have learned not to be offended by a conversation or dirty joke. We'd know when we're being harassed and when someone is just benignly tactless.
We'd also know that we don't always get the jobs we want, not because of our sex or ethnic background, but because someone might just be better at our jobs than we are. But thats not society. There will always be people who have the minutest amount of control-freak in them and want everyone to act the way they want instead of just accepting other people's idiosyncratic nonsense and moving about their day, and there will always be people who think they deserve more than they really do.
This is not to say women don't deserve an equal shot at everything men do, but rather to explain that equality isn't about putting a leash on what jokes are told in the workplace or what posters might be put up in a locker room. Its about learning when to be truly offended and when to just let it go, and realize that men and women do tend to objectify each other but in the end its mostly harmless unless one or the other takes it too far and starts intruding on someone else's life. Equality is everyone getting the same exact rights, no favoritism, no special privileges for what sex you were born as.

 

[Danny Ocean]

You know, all the people dismissing widespread misandry out of hand should probably stop and think why so many men have come around to this way of thinking. It's even in magazines now.

Spoiler: Screw it. There's no point.

Especially young men.

It's not like I had power which I've now lost to girls, or I was replaced by a woman in my career. I have nothing to be directly bitter about, and yet I still think that men get socially shafted, mostly by their stereotypes about themselves, which are reinforced and encouraged by women. The same thing happens in reverse, but not as much, because misogyny is so much more well-known and totally illegal almost everywhere.

No-one does this on purpose, it just kind of happens.

And then when I learned in economics that, on average, in the UK, women under 30 actually make more than men, I figured men are getting shafted in that way, too. Sure, over 30 the men start to earn more on average, but then lots of women have kids over 30, and those are years or months of lost promotions and pay rises. That's their choice, but perhaps maternity provisions are insufficient. I'd agree with that. There's more men in boardrooms, but who gives a shit about boardrooms? What about all the 34,000,000 members of the labour force?

What about all those women-only firms that are somehow totally OK?

Not only that, but almost all aspects of 'masculinity' are derided in male characters. Strength is brutishness or ego-stroking, determination is stubbornness, self-improvement is self-centered, discipline is violence, chivalry is condescending, and so on... no wonder all the young guys don't know what the hell to do. What male role models do they actually have? Criminals and general dicks, because they're the only thing close to 'real men' left, they certainly don't have dads to turn to, and manliness is now a bad thing. Not like kind, caring, gentle, smart, practical, underdog femininity which has had it so hard for all these years under the violent oppression of stupid, compensating men. Wouldn't the world be a better place if it was run by women? 84% of people say yes[footnote]I can't remember the poll, but I do remember the number.[/footnote]! Even men think that men inherently suck! What the fuck!?

You might say you don't hate men, which is probably true, but I bet you assume a lot of things. Murderers are men, pedophiles are men, robbers, car thieves, alcoholics, and vandals are all men by default. Men can't be raped because men are sex-crazed morons, men can't multitask, men are shallow. Men are lazy, men are violent. Men leave their children. Men abuse their partners. Men can't be caring, you can insult them freely because they don't have feelings. Men are selfish, boys are stupid- throw rocks at them. Have you ever noticed how the voice women use to impersonate men is always the retard voice with their tongue against their lower lip?

All the while, you'll feel fine with your child getting a lift with a female stranger, you won't employ a male babysitter, you won't cross the road to avoid a group of women, you'll feel more comfortable with a female nurse, psychiatrist, lawyer, you'll hold your female child to higher standards than your boy, and so on. You'll generally trust women more and treat them better in everyday life.

If you keep telling men that being a man was the wrong decision to make, they're going to start believing it. Men are not allowed to be men, so they remain teenagers their whole lives. They're going to stop caring, and they're going to lower their standards to fulfill the role that society expects them to.

The double-standard is horrendous once you notice it. As you can probably tell by the boulder on my shoulder, I noticed it when I was about seven. Perhaps I need to see a shrink. Perhaps I have issues because my mum is a raging feminist and I've never had a father figure. Who knows?

I expect I'll be belittled and mocked into silence, as all men are when they cry misandry.

Lol, misandry isn't even in Chrome's spellcheck dictionary.

 

[Death God]

Being a male as actually screwed me out of some part time jobs and I always hear about how guys are supposed to be strong and how no emotions. So I believe sexism is starting to become equal now to either gender now.

 

[Racecarlock]

I personally hate the "Macho Man" stereotype since characters set within it tend to say shit like "If you're not like this, you're not a man.". Funny, I thought the only qualification to be a man was having a penis, but I guess I'm just a humanoid with a penis. It's also the reason why some women tend to think of most men as this horrible stereotype. Ranks right up there with "Big breasted dumb bimbo" in terms of bad yet somehow accepted stereotypes.

 

[standokan]

If so, good for you females. You've been pissed on for loung enough now. If not, yay for my side.

 

[OneTwoThreeBlast]

If so, good for you females. You've been pissed on for loung enough now. If not, yay for my side.

This is probably the best encapsulation of this issue so far. Definitely made me chuckle too

I am not being sarcastic. I'm finally going to stop reading this thread now.

 

[Rblade]

simple statistics still show women earn way less for the same job then men do, and that there are still way less woman in CEO positions

so no

it's not

 

[Ironic Pirate]

I think that men have a lot of growing up to do, as evidenced by our own boards.

Now I'm not saying Nickompoop is an immature individual, but the minimum age for the forum is 13, so maybe some members of the community aren't fully developed individuals? Or I suppose we could judge an entire gender based one person, that's fine too.

Anyway, this thread is silly. Men or women don't have it easier, they have it different, and these differences suit different people at different times in different ways. I'm a dude, and I've been at both an advantage and disadvantage because of that. Would my life be any easier as a woman? Maybe, it's hard to tell, because I'm not a woman, and can't really know what that's like. Again, people can have tremendous success or horrible failure as a result of their gender, and that goes both ways. It isn't universally one way or the other.

 

[Danny Ocean]

as for women getting payed less, there are actually many studies that show the reasoning behind this, and none of it is based on sexism. some of the main reasons is that men are far more likely to actually go to their boss and ask for more money, you also make a joke about pms, but the funny thing is in a way this is the truth, studies have shown women are simply not as good at getting along in the office as men, especially when other women are involved. another hilarious finding has been that women actually are worse off when they work for a female boss.

Men also do all the shitty and potentially dangerous jobs. Those jobs demand higher compensation for the unsociable hours, dangerous conditions, and (actual) shit they have to wade through. The simple fact is that it is illegal to pay women less for the same work, so I want someone to actually prove to me that this actually happens, because I think it's a piece of 'common knowledge' that is now full of shit. Women are paid less on average because of, but not limited to:

a) They have kids around 30, which uses up time even if they're not a stay-at-home mum.
b) Men do the crap jobs. See above.

On average, women under 30 in the UK actually earn more than men now, because school is better for girls, basically. Why aren't people making a fuss about that?

tldr;

When you average it across the whole workforce women are paid less because men do the shit jobs and women still have babies. This is changing as generations die and are replaced. What I want proof for is income disparities evidenced in actual jobs in actual equivalent positions, rather than extrapolated from the overall average. I need this evidence because it is illegal, socially unacceptable, and economically unsound for such practice to continue.

 

[StarsintheBlood]

Pretty sure a thread almost exactly like this was around a month ago (right down to the name) so I'll just repost what I said there:

I'm female and I do agree that sexism at the moment makes both men and women suffer.
Okay, this is controversial to say, but why can't men hit girls if they hit them first? If I punched a guy in the face without provocation and he doesn't have a good reason for not punching me back (like being a pacifist or something), I'd be pissed. Men have the right to defend themselves, and I deserve enough respect to be punched. That came out wrong. Let me rephrase.

When guy gets beat up by a girl, it's almost always made to be either comical or a crowning moment of awesome (because a girl taking on a guy is just oh-so-impressive, and for a guy to get beaten is just so funny and shameful). But when a guy so much as bumps a girl too hard, everyone is against him.

Abuse is nothing to take lightly from either gender, and should be treated equally. But you'd be amazed at how many cases of female-on-male abuse- and even f/m RAPE- gets overlooked because the jury or cops just refuse to believe it. And yes, female on male abuse is quite common, it's just that there aren't nearly as many convictions. Hell, there's barely any representation of it in today's televised media. A man will get fired for sexually harassing a woman, but a woman will likely get a wag of the finger or have her flirtations be seen as cute/harmless. A man is chosen over a woman for a promotion and it's sexist, but when a woman is chosen it's progress. So while men are the primary victims of this sexism, women are also being insulted and implied to be helpless.

Plus, men can't wear women's clothing (because it's shameful to be feminine?), and they can't show affection to their male friends without people assuming their gay. Girls can hug and hold hands and be just friends, but with boys, forget it.

Alright, I'll get off my soapbox. Yes, /cultural/ sexism is primarily aimed at males in modern society, but it's also insulting women by implication. However, I have to say that /professional/ sexism is a different matter. This country is still run by men, our corporations run by men.
It's not a perfect world.

 

[Danny Ocean]

Alright, I'll get off my soapbox. Yes, /cultural/ sexism is primarily aimed at males in modern society, but it's also insulting women by implication.

I basically agree with this, but...

However, I have to say that /professional/ sexism is a different matter.

I'm not convinced that this is just another piece of 'common knowledge' which is actually no longer true. It used to happen to our mums, and they told us that it happens because as far as they're aware it still does. No-one questions it because everyone still parrots it and you get the odd case of it being true, and people ignore the contradictory cases. I'm not convinced.

When you average it across the whole workforce women are paid less because men do the shit jobs and women still have babies. This is changing as generations die and are replaced. What I want proof for is income disparities evidenced in actual jobs in actual equivalent positions, rather than extrapolated from the overall average. I need this evidence because it is illegal, socially unacceptable, and economically unsound for such practice to continue.

 

[TheRealLasor]

Interestingly enough, there is a scholarly phenomenon of sexism, the basis of it is that schools are more geared towards girls, the sitting down, the calmness, the structure, while boys require something more physical and kinetic and thus there has become a gap in gender education leaning towards women.

Last I found, the percentages of Boys to Girls in colleges were roughly 35% (males) to 65%(females) but don't quote me on that, I don't have anything to back this up.

http://hereandnow.wbur.org/2011/09/12/boys-school-games Fascinating article

 

[orangeban]

Interestingly enough, there is a scholarly phenomenon of sexism, the basis of it is that schools are more geared towards girls, the sitting down, the calmness, the structure, while boys require something more physical and kinetic and thus there has become a gap in gender education leaning towards women.

Last I found, the percentages of Boys to Girls in colleges were roughly 35% (males) to 65%(females) but don't quote me on that, I don't have anything to back this up.

http://hereandnow.wbur.org/2011/09/12/boys-school-games Fascinating article

I'm not convinced by this "scholary phenomenon". It seems to make exactly the sort of generalizations that should be fought against. I do well in school, and think that physical/kinetic things can go eat cyanide, but I am also a boy. What does that make me? Most would call me an exception, but in a truelly equal world there would be no exceptions to the rule, because there wouldn't be a rule. Everyone would be treated as individuals and not lumped into groups depending on whether their genitals are an innie or an outie.

But I digress, to the question at hand, girls are doing better at education than boys. Provable fact, in Britain girls score higher in exams. I seriously doubt this is some kind of genetic thing that means girls naturally are better in school, I suspect that something in society is holding boys back.

I remember a survey (and can't bring it to hand, so this point is a bit shit but hold with me) that asked boys and girls in 2nd or 3rd grade if boys or girls were better. A lot of boys said girls were better, not so many girls said boys were better. What is it in society that is telling boys that girls are better?

I reckon' if we find that we find the reason why girls are outperforming boys. A general rule in education is, the more encouraged you are, the better you do. What is encouraging the girls that isn't encouraging boys? (the answer is probably society, but that's a bit general.

 

[ultimateownage]

It depends where you are. The whole sexism deal sucks for both men AND women though, women just traditionally have it worse.

 

[TheRealLasor]

Interestingly enough, there is a scholarly phenomenon of sexism, the basis of it is that schools are more geared towards girls, the sitting down, the calmness, the structure, while boys require something more physical and kinetic and thus there has become a gap in gender education leaning towards women.

Last I found, the percentages of Boys to Girls in colleges were roughly 35% (males) to 65%(females) but don't quote me on that, I don't have anything to back this up.

http://hereandnow.wbur.org/2011/09/12/boys-school-games Fascinating article

I'm not convinced by this "scholary phenomenon". It seems to make exactly the sort of generalizations that should be fought against. I do well in school, and think that physical/kinetic things can go eat cyanide, but I am also a boy. What does that make me? Most would call me an exception, but in a truelly equal world there would be no exceptions to the rule, because there wouldn't be a rule. Everyone would be treated as individuals and not lumped into groups depending on whether their genitals are an innie or an outie.

You'd be surprised just how much that matters, you see for the most part our society mirrors what we grew from. When Humans were first forming societies men were meant to go out and hunt, and women meant to stay home and maintain the home and get pregnant. That's how it went, women were essentially the cookers, the cleaners, and the reproducers, and men were the hunters, and the hands-on problem solving approach that required a foot in the door that mean had to deal with while hunting had produced an evolutionary necessity for kinetic learning, while the necessity of caution while a woman was pregnant to survive and keep the lineage going meant that a more situational, hypothetical style of problem solving was evolutionarily necessary.

Sure, some people are different, I'm not saying you're a bad example of a man, I'm saying that for the most part the average man will follow that example, because our school system isn't aged enough for evolution to necessitate that boys change from Kinetic to Hypothetical learning.

 

[Venats]

I'm not convinced by this "scholary phenomenon". It seems to make exactly the sort of generalizations that should be fought against. I do well in school, and think that physical/kinetic things can go eat cyanide, but I am also a boy. What does that make me? Most would call me an exception, but in a truelly equal world there would be no exceptions to the rule, because there wouldn't be a rule. Everyone would be treated as individuals and not lumped into groups depending on whether their genitals are an innie or an outie.

A single case or an example by proximity to exception (saying: "I/A friend I have don't/doesn't fit that criteria but I/he or she am/is X, therefore X cannot be true.") doesn't refute the claim. I've spent a fair amount of time in college where the scene of people learning is far more fluid and open to personal tweaks than, say, a high school example or middle school. I can also say that I have seen men who learn better or very well without kinetics, I've also seen plenty of men who learn well with kinetic examples or some sort of physicality to go with their attempts at learning. From experience, I'd put more males in the category of people who need to stand up, talk, draw, or even play out a lecture, proof, or problem to get the best understanding of it possible, than otherwise.

If you want to see this in action, compare a class of biology students (highly female dominated field) to a class of physics students (highly male dominated field), the former is a class designed around memorizing countless details, the latter a class about conceptualization and (quite literally) kinetics. People who are good at memorizing do poorly in physics, the opposite is true for biology where conceptually strong people have trouble with sheets of memorization requirements. (The last sentence was speaking in general, again there are always exceptions.) Now take a physics class or take it outside the class, much of the material requires someone to think actively, to draw or model or build, in order to give the best understanding. Now you can memorize details, and you might be a genius, but most people cannot just look at a wavefunction, or a spinor, or..., and immediately understand what it means without it being first characterized by a graph or some physical analogy.

One could argue just by the large disparities in the sexes between these two focuses of college would imply that there are sexual difference towards, if not learning, then the ability to better grasp.

 

[Fbuh]

Two words. Affirmative Action. Makes it so much easier for any woman to find a good job than a man looking for the same.

Not necessarily. A lot of companies still pay women less than a man with the same amount of work experience in the same type of position.

Honestly, the problem arises more when you get extremists (like in any situation). Feminist extremists, male extremists, either end of the spectrum creates inequality for someone. From personal experience, I will say that I have not yet met a woman that cannot do anything a man can (other than genital related activities).

 

[CobraX]

Women need to deal with shit that men don't and some stuff is harder for them to accomplish thanks to sexism.

Men also need to deal with shit that women don't and some stuff is harder for them to accomplish thanks to sexism.

'Nuff said.

 

[Soulstiger]

Okay...I stopped reading around the middle of page 7.....why are some females, who have yet to express any interest in working in engineering, complaining about the lack of other females working in engineering? If YOU have no interest in engineering, ever thought that other females might not have interest in it? I'm not saying no women have interest in engineering, or that men are better at it, just that men seem more INTERESTED in it. So, because you feel slighted by the lack of female engineers, other girls should be forced to become engineers? Furthermore, men making more money across the board shouldn't even be brought up....now in the same job with the same work, if the male, or female, made more money based on his/her gender then fine, fight back all you want. I work at a McDonalds, I know I am so impressive , I make more money than some of the people who have worked there for up to 10 years more than me...why? I work harder, I'm never late, I don't complain like everyone else, and I am willing to help out however I can, whether that be staying longer, or even coming in at short notice. One of my friends just entered U of I in Urbana-Champaign (Illinois) and he said he was surprised at the number of girls also studying to become engineers.