Sexsim: have the tables actually turned?

[Nuke_em_05]

Equip +Flame Resistance Gear (Now in Panda shapes, apparently, but I digress)
Okay, ready to enter this thread.

There is too much generalization and on both sides.

People quote statistics and hypothetical situations up the wazoo on either end. "Women are paid less across the board", "men are turned down because women have the legal advantage".

Here's the deal, if you keep everything general, you can't solve the problem. If we keep saying "Women make 5% less in all positions everywhere", that's a statistic, and also a generalization. You can quote and lobby and rally and hooplah all that you want, but until specifically "Bill, in Company Y" is directly confronted, he's going to keep ignoring legislation.

Same thing is true of reverse discrimination, maybe it happens, maybe it doesn't, you can quote hypothetical scenarios based on affirmative action and "some story this guy told me once", but again, until someone can point to "Jill, in Company X", she's going to keep doing it.

It can't be addressed in general terms, otherwise it boils down to "all men are sexist" and "all women are out to get our jobs". Sexism (either way) is a very big problem, but it unfortunately can't be addressed with sweeping legislation and generalizations, it has to be addressed directly when you see it personally. Sadly, not enough people do that.

 

[Daddy Go Bot]

There never was a table to begin with. But ever since feminists introduced it, men have been shafted by it ever since.

EDIT- Christ in a handbasket, so many uniformed feminists and manginas in here I don't even know where to fucking BEGIN. Holy hell.

there kind of was.....

by "table" I mean back then..well in alot of ways it sucked to be a women
-it was harder to have a career, you were pretty much expected to find a man and pop out some babies...and HE is better than you!
-you would be look down upon for doing anything different...or god forbid want to do somthing in a feild dominated by men
- and if you want to go back even further than that you were an inferior species, and had little to no rights whats so ever

or some it up Trix style "silly woman! doing things is for MEN!"

of coarse things are pretty good now, jut saying not so much back then, now days its a much less black and white issue

"Back then" men were expected protect women at all costs and even fight for her honor.
"Back then" a man was expected to give up his seat on the life boat for a woman.
"Back then" a man was expected to take care, support and protect his woman in all possible ways, and if he couldn't he'd be considered less of a man, and an utter failure in life.
"Back then" if a woman committed a crime or did something bad, her husband was the one who would take full responsibility for her actions. Yes, that included imprisonment.

And do you want to hear the ultimate male privilege? Men were the only ones fought and died in wars.

 

[Vault101]

Equip +Flame Resistance Gear (Now in Panda shapes, apparently, but I digress)
Okay, ready to enter this thread.

There is too much generalization and on both sides.

People quote statistics and hypothetical situations up the wazoo on either end. "Women are paid less across the board", "men are turned down because women have the legal advantage".

Here's the deal, if you keep everything general, you can't solve the problem. If we keep saying "Women make 5% less in all positions everywhere", that's a statistic, and also a generalization. You can quote and lobby and rally and hooplah all that you want, but until specifically "Bill, in Company Y" is directly confronted, he's going to keep ignoring legislation.

Same thing is true of reverse discrimination, maybe it happens, maybe it doesn't, you can quote hypothetical scenarios based on affirmative action and "some story this guy told me once", but again, until someone can point to "Jill, in Company X", she's going to keep doing it.

It can't be addressed in general terms, otherwise it boils down to "all men are sexist" and "all women are out to get our jobs". Sexism (either way) is a very big problem, but it unfortunately can't be addressed with sweeping legislation and generalizations, it has to be addressed directly when you see it personally. Sadly, not enough people do that.

damn right

you have no Idea how many times I have sat there grinding my teeth of some wakner saying "ALL women are just gold diggers/manipulative/out to suck a man try...it happented to me/my freind" do I think its sad that this happens? YES am I angrey that this dickhead is saying we are ALL the same? YES

and women do it do, they can be just as fucking stupid (ohhh I want a man to treat me like a PRINCESSS he must pay for everything, drop his freinds..change himself, to suit MEEEE" listen you twat, you are a disgrace to my species

*sigh* sorry it just annoys me,

 

[Andy of Comix Inc]

One example that springs to mind is the double standard that a woman can not sexually harass/assault a man.

This is my problem. No one bats an eye when a woman kicks a man in the bullocks, but a man pinching a woman's bum? OH NO.

There is a lot of political correctness gone mad, but my main issue is that the fight for equality really doesn't stop when that "equality" has been reached. And some issues that should be pressing are brushed aside in favour of petty put-downs. Besides that there's no issue. Just on the whole "men have thick skins, women are delicate flowers," because in many, many cases, it's just not true. Letting a woman harm a man against his will is indeed a form of sexism.

 

[Andy of Comix Inc]

double post >_<

 

[King Ramen Noodle]

for the tl:dr version, both sides need to stfu and enjoy life.

both have pros and cons. men have to put up with crap, women have to put up with crap, men have easier time in places women don't, women have easier time in places men don't. the whole flaw to the argument that women are treat more poorly or men are starting to be treated more poorly is that both sides are really just whining. Take what you have and make the best of it. yea you have to put with crap simply because you were born a way you didn't choose. life gives an equal amount of pee in everyone cornflakes, so deal with it and just enjoy what you got because someone somewhere mostly likely would love to have what you have regardless if your male or female.

Example, the catwoman thing. OMG catwoman is totally sexed up for the male audience. yea well duh that's part of her character is that she knows shes a woman and a good looking one at that so she uses that to her advantage rather then whine about it all the time. women complain about women like that but really shes a fictional character which is good for them because she's the only one that embraces the fact shes a woman without shoving it down everyone throat. also im sure batman isn't buff or well groomed for any reason other than he's batman right? women aren't attracted to big buff men with looks and money right. NEVER.

yea years ago women were treated worse on a whole by men but the nice thing is that society has given women a bunch of advantages over men now that women didn't have a long time ago. this isn't the 12th century anymore folks we can get along with out playing the whole im a man card or the im a woman card. on a whole its come down to a case by case basis. one man may be a complete sexist and the woman is just trying to right by him or it could be the other way around. dominate woman finds spineless guy and goes sexist on him too.society does frown on women being abused or mistreated not like long ago, so honestly i thing its more equal than ever. but seriously both sides should stop whining about what the other has, because no the grass is not greener on the other side, both sides have stuff to put with just for being them and have advantages for being them. if you don't like it you can just whine about it forever or just get over it and deal with it.

 

[Vault101]

There never was a table to begin with. But ever since feminists introduced it, men have been shafted by it ever since.

EDIT- Christ in a handbasket, so many uniformed feminists and manginas in here I don't even know where to fucking BEGIN. Holy hell.

there kind of was.....

by "table" I mean back then..well in alot of ways it sucked to be a women
-it was harder to have a career, you were pretty much expected to find a man and pop out some babies...and HE is better than you!
-you would be look down upon for doing anything different...or god forbid want to do somthing in a feild dominated by men
- and if you want to go back even further than that you were an inferior species, and had little to no rights whats so ever

or some it up Trix style "silly woman! doing things is for MEN!"

of coarse things are pretty good now, jut saying not so much back then, now days its a much less black and white issue

"Back then" men were expected protect women at all costs and even fight for her honor.
"Back then" a man was expected to give up his seat on the life boat for a woman.
"Back then" a man was expected to take care, support and protect his woman in all possible ways, and if he couldn't he'd be considered less of a man, and an utter failure in life.
"Back then" if a woman committed a crime or did something bad, her husband was the one who would take full responsibility for her actions. Yes, that included imprisonment.

And do you want to hear the ultimate male privilege? Men were the only ones fought and died in wars.

so I guess we can both say "back then" it kinda sucked for everyone,

Im dont want to get into "which side it was worse for" but "expected" was definetly optional, not all men had that much honour

again it was considered some kind of trade off I supose for the "silly women doing things is for MEN!"

women werent allowed to fight in wars...but yeah conscription really REALLY sucked, Ill give you that one

 

[mooncalf]

If we're here talking about gender equality then I don't think we're there yet, or else we wouldn't have to talk about it; it would just be.

I don't feel worse off being a man at all though.

 

[guitarsniper]

I'd note that the education system in many western nations is geared towards women as well. I'm a sophomore in university, and i remember the average enrollment in all of the colleges i applied to being something in the area of 55% women to 45% men, sometimes reaching as high as 60% women. As far as i'm aware, men and women are neurologically predisposed to favor particular styles of learning. (i read this article a while back and don't remember the particular one, so you'll have to forgive me for not citing sources). GENERALLY, women tend to learn more collaboratively and men tend to learn more especially with physical aids. The modern education system tends to favor the female learning style more.

 

[Jadak]

Being a man actually worked out for me. Teaching was traditionally a job for women, and the realization of how male role models are important for male children has made it easier for a man to get a teaching job than a woman

And how old are you? I can see that argument being at least 10-15 years ago, but coming from personal experience going through our education system (23 now), I always had a fairly equal mix of male/female teachers, at all levels.

 

[Ryu890]

I'd say we're more equal now than we've ever been, and getting increasingly more so all the time. Dudes bitching about women getting more rights and the feminist movement are just pissed that they have to share and that their lives aren't as easy as they used to be.

Believe it or not, I did an essay on the matter...

The Feminist movement was a good thing. Women WERE mistreated in the olden days, dispite having just as good a brain as women. The movement gave women freedom they deserved, and allowed their talent to be utilized like never before.

But the movement itself was flawed, because it was a 'Feminist' movement. Not a 'gender equality' movement. The movement was pro-woman, and ignored the rights and issues of men in their entirety. To quote Pelle Billing:

"Early feminism was an honorable struggle, and while it may not have been the perfect way to kick off the whole gender liberation movement, focusing on women?s rights was certainly a pressing concern at the time. However, what was forgotten was that men?s rights in the public sphere, had always been accompanied by pretty harsh responsibilities (go to war, perform the dangerous jobs, work all day so you hardly ever see your family). So in one sense women were handed the rights of men, without being expected to share in the responsibilities. Another example of this way of thinking is that feminists demand that half of all board members be women, without demanding that half the soldiers or half of the garbage collectors be women."


Yes thats a long quote, but I feel it well explains my position. The Feminist movement needs to die out, and be replaced with one that truly regards men and women as equals, as opposed to one that regards men as the 'bad guys'.

The fact of the matter is, Gender Discrimination still exists, and is present against both genders. But because of the Feminist movement, discrimination against men is largely ignored, or even worse, seen as 'petty whining' by people like you.

-Woman get children by default in a divorce.
-A woman typically has an advantage in court because she's seen as the 'helpless' one, and anyone who disagrees is a bully.
-It is still not socially acceptable for a man to wear skirts, dresses, tights, and the like, while a woman is allowed full access to masculine garments (pants, suits, ect.)
-Men are discriminated in the workplace. (I can think of two example's I've looked up. One where a man was denied a management position in a jewelry company on the grounds that 'That position is only open to women.' Another at a fast food resteraunt. Men and Women had different training regimens, and different tasks. The women's was CLEARLY easier, yet both were paid the same wages. When a man spoke up, not only was he shut down, but the woman began to insult him daily and viciously, and play the victims when ever he retaliated.
-The code of chivarly is still enforced, dispite its clear sexism. Further, many women tolerate benevolent sexism (Ladies' First, opening the door, ect), while NOT tolerating hostile sexism (being denied work, treated as weaker, ect.) This is hypocritical and pathetic.




In short, you are wrong ma'm. Sir? I presume Ma'm, but I may be wrong. Men's lives are not, were not, and never will be 'easy' as a whole. While some people may whine out of ignorance, others complain because there are real, legitimate issues in the world. But they go tragically ignored because men are the 'bad guys'.



I reccomend going to pellebilling.com.

 

[Daddy Go Bot]

I'd note that the education system in many western nations is geared towards women as well. I'm a sophomore in university, and i remember the average enrollment in all of the colleges i applied to being something in the area of 55% women to 45% men, sometimes reaching as high as 60% women. As far as i'm aware, men and women are neurologically predisposed to favor particular styles of learning. (i read this article a while back and don't remember the particular one, so you'll have to forgive me for not citing sources). GENERALLY, women tend to learn more collaboratively and men tend to learn more especially with physical aids. The modern education system tends to favor the female learning style more.

But of course we tend to ignore this because it's not women who get the short end of the stick.

What you're talking about is summed up pretty nicely in this video: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IgvrzMpHJwQ

 

[TehChuckles]

Remove "-isms" by treating everyone equally to begin with and don't make generalisations on sex or race. it happens a lot on both sides of the fence and it just has to stop. even in this thread there are people who seem to be mindlessly fighting for their gender rather than equality in general. if you want to want to fight for balance, fight for both sides not just your own

 

[Condor219]

No, we aren't. Women still have to deal with shit that men don't have to, and you can't say the same about the opposite. I have no idea why everyone on the internet is so against feminism.

Because of feminazis. I know the movement, as a whole, demands equality, but them dumbshits are looking for supremacy.

Anyway, getting a job as an engineer (especially electrical engineering) is much easier as a woman. This is an unfortunate problem that we currently face.

This, on both points. Feminism is great and all, but when you say "I AM A WOMAN AND THEREFORE SUPERIOR" it defeats the point of looking for equality.

And I'd imagine the male-female engineer ratio is up there with that of NASCAR fans (and sports in general). So many men.

 

[GryffinDarkBreed]

Let's see

Woman calls man a Dick. Nothing happens.
Man calls woman a *****. Suddenly he loses his job and gets sued for sexual harassment.

Fair? Hell no.

 

[lumenadducere]

No. And the handful of misguided attempts to convince anyone otherwise are pretty laughable given the tremendous statistical and anecdotal evidence that countless women could otherwise provide. But given the state of the internet and some gamers you'll no doubt find misogyny to be prevalent and stating otherwise.

 

[Daddy Go Bot]

No. And the handful of misguided attempts to convince anyone otherwise are pretty laughable given the tremendous statistical and anecdotal evidence that countless women could otherwise provide. But given the state of the internet and some gamers you'll no doubt find misogyny to be prevalent and stating otherwise.

Would you say that the overarching problem with gender equality lies with misogyny?

 

[lumenadducere]

No. And the handful of misguided attempts to convince anyone otherwise are pretty laughable given the tremendous statistical and anecdotal evidence that countless women could otherwise provide. But given the state of the internet and some gamers you'll no doubt find misogyny to be prevalent and stating otherwise.

Would you say that the overarching problem with gender equality lies with misogyny?

The over-arching problem is prejudice and hatred, regardless of what people it's towards. Misandry (hatred of men) is just as bad and detrimental to equality. I threw in misogyny because of the notion that somehow the "tables had turned" and that men somehow had it worse than women. That is a laughable notion, but in retrospect it isn't the most accurate word to use.

 

[Twilight_guy]

Hold on, let me check... nope still unequal. Maybe tomorrow.

I don't see my life any worse off for being a male. I obviously have no idea what the other side looks like but I do know its at least slightly better then it was say 100 years ago. That's not saying a whole lot but it's about all I can say.

 

[Danglybits]

I'd say we're more equal now than we've ever been, and getting increasingly more so all the time. Dudes bitching about women getting more rights and the feminist movement are just pissed that they have to share and that their lives aren't as easy as they used to be.

Pretty much this. Women are MORE equal than before but not the same. There are professions that are male and female. Ask people how they feel about male vs. female nurses; and why. Or teachers. Those are both seen as 'mothering' or 'nurturing' positions. There is a real prejudice against men in nursing. Feminism is about equality, not female superiority. If we're talking world wide vs. 'western civilization' then women are far from equal. They occupy fewer executive positions and are paid less. Not to mention the deficit of human rights such as voting, driving and going outside their homes without escort. This is much like the response of some heterosexual males to Bioware's inclusive games; your seat at the table isn't being taken away -- more seats are being added.