Sexsim: have the tables actually turned?

[Estelindis]

It depends on the field in question. A woman often isn't paid the same as a man for doing equal work. On the other hand, women often seem to have an unfair advantage in custody battles over children.

 

[Vault101]

No, we aren't. Women still have to deal with shit that men don't have to, and you can't say the same about the opposite. I have no idea why everyone on the internet is so against feminism.

Because of feminazis. I know the movement, as a whole, demands equality, but them dumbshits are looking for supremacy.

Anyway, getting a job as an engineer (especially electrical engineering) is much easier as a woman. This is an unfortunate problem that we currently face.

Being the lazy, never-had-a-summer-job bastard that I am, I don't know much about affirmative action and all that, but is it really worse than having a worse biological setup (periods, pregnancy...), more prone to receiving violence (rape, spousal abuse...), and several other things I could mention, but am too lazy to elaborate on(lower income, larger share of housework, media problems, more strict social standards)?

Wait a second, back that train up.
Worse biological setup? What about testicular and prostate problems, they kill a fair amount of men each year. Also what about guys having that lovely extra problem of being prone to certain types of hernias due to the male set up?
More prone to violence? Last I checked in domestic cases women actually hit more often, it just happens that when guys hit they do more damage.
Lower income, a bit debatable, aren't women now the majority in a lot of high paying professions such as doctors, lawyers and whatnot?
Media problems? Please elaborate, because last I checked women in the media get away with a lot of crap that guys don't. An old guy calls some women nappy headed and a lynch mob goes after him. A bunch of women make fun of and demean a guy who gets his penis cut off by a spouse and its hilarious and "you go girl". If a guy did the same, he would be out of a job permanently in any media, but for women hey its cool because its empowering to them.

Breast cancer? And I doubt hernias are worse than pregnancy.
The second... I'd ask for sources but I didn't use any either (aside from Wikipedia). So I guess that's a draw?
Again, we're both talking out our asses.
I meant that women are always shown as highly sexualized in pretty much everything. You could say the same for men, but I don't think women are as ok about all their role models shown with huge boobs as men are with theirs with muscles (also, I've heard that overmuscled guys aren't that attractive to women, and that girls are attracted to asses anyways).
Special note on Don Imus: Agree that that was stupid. I think the thing was that he had said worse and "nappy headed hoes" was the straw that broke the camels back. Also, that may have been about racism as much as sexism.

A pregnancy doesn't destroy you for life. A Hernia will. A Pregnancy doesn't increase your odds exponentially for having another pregnancy. A Hernia does. If you have a hernia, you will have another, in the same place, it's only a matter of time. And that Hernia will increase the odds even more.

I dont know...pregnacy can screw with your life in alot of unpleasant ways (mostly if it isnt planned)


anyway a hernia isnt somthing thats expected of you at some point (I mean cmon, you would automaticlaly find it a little weaird talking to a woman of a certain age to find out she doesnt have any kids?)

anyway that said I supose both pregancy and hernias kind of suck

 

[Ubermetalhed]

I am starting to see that it is actually becoming a disadvantage to be white and male nowadays. Especially in gaining employment.

Negative diversity is becoming commonplace.

 

[LiquidGrape]

You hear a lot of people say "affirmative action is hurting men, the feminists have made it so it's easier for women now than men!". It's the same thing as when people claim that racism has been completely eliminated, and "reverse racism" (which in itself is a nonsensical word) has made the white man at a disadvantage. Well, first of all, feminism isn't about pushing women to be more important or treated better than men, it's about equality, so if it were the case that women had it easier, feminists would technically still be pissed.

Secondly, the issue with these statements is that as a man, or a white person, you are pretty much blind to the inherent advantages of your sex/race. All you see is your life changing for the worse while everyone else seemingly gets "free passes" and "handouts". If you take a step back and look at society as a whole, and the institutions and social norms that govern our lives, they are rooted in patriarchy and in white supremacy. This isn't necessarily intentional, either, it's just remnants of the past that aren't so easy to change.

One of the biggest obstacles to remedying institutional problems like this is in fact that the privileged groups (whites, males, etc) either refuse to see the problem, or don't see it as their responsibility.

Bless you.

Latent privilege is precisely the problem, and it is when these privileges are taken away that some claim their rights are being compromised - even though the truth of the matter is that they are simply in the process of being levelled with everyone else.

 

[nukethetuna]

You hear a lot of people say "affirmative action is hurting men, the feminists have made it so it's easier for women now than men!". It's the same thing as when people claim that racism has been completely eliminated, and "reverse racism" (which in itself is a nonsensical word) has made the white man at a disadvantage. Well, first of all, feminism isn't about pushing women to be more important or treated better than men, it's about equality...

What sort of equality though? equal chances or equal numbers?

Equal chances. This causes kind of a "damned all around" situation, because many people cite the inequality of numbers as the problem. This could in turn lead to overcompensating through policies that DO give women a better chance, which ultimately would turn the tables.

I believe that social inequalities can't really be fixed instantly through policy or laws. Those changes can HELP, but in the end reshaping society's beliefs and societal institutions is a slow process that requires a startling amount of awareness on the part of the average citizen.

If equal chances are given, then the equality in numbers will come in time. Getting the equal chances is the hard part, because it's not just laws and policies that need to adjust, it's the mindset and ideology of society.

 

[A Free Man]

snip

I don't think the tables have turned. Even if it is no longer forced, it is still generally accpeted as a social norm for women to maintain roles similar to those they have been expected to perform in the past. Until the stigma, of being male and female disappears there will always be differences. Because of this I think it is still worse off being female, however it is good that people are acknowledging that there has finally been a lot of progress, but there is still a ways to go yet. The very fact that there is still a "men vs women" thing being discussed just goes to show that it really isn't close to disappearing.

But one thing I really don't like is the "worse biological set-up" thing I keep hearing... Really? How could you possibly argue which gender has the worse biological set-up, and even if you could, can that then be argued as a point against the opposing gender? As if it is somehow womens fault that men can get hit in the balls, or mens fault that women have to go through labor? Such arguments are silly and irrelevent, as far as I'm concerned, sexism should refer only to the social expectations we impose on each other, which is what should stop, not biological generalisations that are out of our control.

Since the ideal societal situation concerning gender involves ignoring gender entirely, it's probably best never to discuss the matter.

I don't have many strong opinions on this topic one way or the other, as in my life I have been lucky enough for this problem to be more of a boundary issue then a serious one. But I'd like to quickly say I don't agree with this at all. It is similar to racism in the sense that many people argue that the best solution is a world where people ignore races altogether. Again I totally disagree, I think ignoring differences is as bad, if not worse, than spiting people based on those differences. Ignoring the differences between one another is paramount to conformatism in my opinion, in that it tries to destroy individualism. I don't know if this makes much sense, but what I am trying to say is that people should attempt to understand, if not embrace differences between alternating ways of life rather then ignore them or spite them.

 

[funguy2121]

pretty simple question, are you now "worse off" being a man thease days than being a woman? (you know, within reason in any 1st world society)

to be honest I always get tired of the stupid "men vs women" thing that tends to happen, I think once we got the whole "women should actually do shit other than be in the kitchen" then things get a little complex or end up in a grey area



(and of coarse all those wankers on certain sites I go to saying that ALL women are essentially manipualtive gold digging whores, I unsertand there is an issue but for fuck sake do they realise how stupid it is to say 51% of the world population is the SAME? could I say the ame about men? oh right they would disagree...of coarse,moral of the story stay away from mainstream opinion blogs...)

I'd say women enjoy a lot more freedom and power than men when it comes to the early stages of dating. And if you want to be a (only biologically speaking) woman who's what my grandfather used to call a "drone," a useless couch potato or bimbo who's willing to pay the price in fellatio, then you can probably get away with doing a helluvah lot less in life than a lot of us guys have to do.

That's really about it, as far as I'm concerned. In just about every other aspect of life, down to physiology, women usually have it worse than men.

 

[Dark Knifer]

If a woman ever had abuse of any kind by a spouse, I would understand chopping his junk off.

I'd assume you'd be ok if a man ever had abuse of any kind then you would understand him cutting her uterus out?

OT: As I have posted on this thread that just refuses to go away, it's very much depending where you look at. It's not all sexism towards one gender or another, it comes from both sides.

Understand. Not support.

I get that. I can understand them being angry and all, but I do not understand why they felt the need to horribly mutilate them because it's completely insane and criminal. I realize your not supporting it in any way, I apologize if it came off like that, but my understanding of them is gone the second they go to such perverted and horrific lengths for mere revenge. It lacks any kind of rationality and even heat-of-the-moment doesn't cover it unless she has some severe mental issues.

 

[mgirl]

Recently in my country, they enquired a large population of pupils as to how they felt about people being homosexuals and while only some 13% of the females found homosexuality offensive, I'm sad to say that close to 50% of the males had a problem with it.

I believe you on that, but at the same time, most of the girls that I knew that would either behave defensively around me, or refuse to talk to me, or be outright hostile all claimed that they didn't mind gays, but they were only considering gay men, and are different around gay women.

Even then, the number of people who would actually behave in a negative way is not the norm, and it's usually just a knee jerk reaction, and when you get to know most people, they sort of realise that it's not a big deal.

Of course, it's fully possible I have just been seriously unlucky in the people I've met!

 

[maturin]

Sexism is just rudeness. Patriarchy is what matters, and that's going strong.

 

[sparkyk24]

I honestly thing that an average looking woman has it about the same as men. There are pros and cons, and which one is easier really would come down to personal preference and personality type.

But extremely pretty girls have it easier. I don't care about the statistics, I've seen it time and time and time again in my personal life. Pretty girls get what they want, their stupidity is tolerated, and everyone rushes to help them when they need anything. Of course, some pretty women don't have it quite so easy because they refuse to be dumb and flirty which, at least at the young age, actually prevents them from getting what they want, which makes me want to stab everyone everywhere in the eye >.< I remember a girl that got hired to be one of the executives of a retail store that I worked at. Pretty and dumb as a box of dead fish. She couldn't understand why it was hard for me to get a job. The thought that someone wouldn't just give me whatever I wanted was incredibly hard for her to grasp, I think.

 

[bobtail123]

I think there are far more people who are openly and extremely sexist against women than there are against men. However it is more common to see mild, even subconscious, sexism in favor of women and this is far more socially acceptable. One of the big double-standards is the relative acceptability of sexism against men, rather than against women; however considering the history of sexism it's probably OK to let that one slide.

 

[mgirl]

with all respect I dont think people should be automatically banned from discussing certain issues, because they havnt experienced them first hand

That was not my intention, I think the beginning of my post was poorly worded, probably due to just how worked up I get about this I apologise.

and even worse its only acceptible for guys if they are "hot"...butch lesbians? from what Ive seen they seem to be acceptible targets for everyone to ridicule

Yeah... it's sad how true that can be... I was told outright by a guy that I'm an 'ok' lesbian because I'm skinny and relatively feminine, whereas those who arent are 'the bad kind'.

 

[TheDooD]

snip

Ohgodohgod why are you going into the theory of education? This is dangerous territory in which I only have light empirical data on (and not actual analysis).

I am aware of most of these things. I also did include a disclaimer that I was skipping entire connecting ideas so I could keep the length down.

A few things I've read have boiled down to similar things you've stated, namely, women are more likely to get discouraged pursuing mathematics or sciences. As to why? Well, schools have been hiring way more female teachers than prior to help encourage female students to participate more actively. It was believed male teachers might be unconsciously discouraging or oppressing female students simply by being male. Not far fetched; when I touched on women in the military as liasons, its for the same reason: commonsense is women are more comfortable speaking to other women. As for validity? Whatever. Classes also now involve more sitting. Because evidently girls learn better in calm environments. Boys, on the other hands, are terrible, rambunctious buggers and generally believed to learn better through doing. True? Maybe, more on that later.

But even with these efforts, among many other efforts, well, we've seen an improvement but we're still a long way from 50 / 50.

And the later parts. Another thing could be just sexism so deeply entrenched that we don't even realize its there. Maybe we are unconsciously ingraining different values into our children which causes them to learn differently. Do boys learn better by doing by nature or is that we just let them dick around more frequently? Nobody knows.

Which is another thing about sexism. Its been around for so long we don't even know what is nature and what is constructed anymore.

As for why go there? Its an important question that confounds our best scientists to this date. Could just take time, like what I said about the lack of women in the upper crust. Who knows.

I'd also like to say I'm a computer scientist. High five!

It's true I learned from doing, experimentation and mimicry. I overall hated the calm, slow ass methods that schools used. I might be a reason why I udderly hated High School, I got quite a few good teachers in 9th and 10th grade. Yet after that I noticed how drone shit was I even had a young female English teacher that was a ***** she treated the male and female students differently. She normally got really pissed off when she taught root words. The guys normally found funny words that worked with lesson, while the girls didn't even try. I and like 5 other guys got In School Suspension for getting the root words and enjoying the work. She played it off like we we're bullshitting around while we were doing what she asked we just took humor in it. While the girls in the class didn't really know what was going on.

 

[A Free Man]

snip.

I'll try really hard to talk about your arguments and not you, but I'd like to quickly say that I disagree almost entirely with essentially everything you have said in this thread. I am going to hope for your sake that your ideals have been formed in your mind because of events specific to you that have made you think the way you do. The thought that such ideas could have been formed based on pure ignorance and idiocy astounds and well kind of scares me. Anyway even if you are going to continue arguing your points, at least consider the implications of what you are saying before you say it. Doesn't take a lot of effort and might stop you from sounding foolish in the future.

 

[Syntax Error]

Anyway, getting a job as an engineer (especially electrical engineering) is much easier as a woman. This is an unfortunate problem that we currently face.

Interesting... Any insight on why this is the case?

 

[TheGreatAndPowerfulZOG]

No, we're pretty much on equal footing now. I'm sure men still have some advantages, and I know sexism against men is out there, but it really isn't very important compared to race and class divides.

 

[oppp7]

Sources? (I used Wikipedia)

Okay from a previous post on domestic violence:
http://www.patientedu.org/aspx/HealthELibrary/HealthETopic.aspx?cid=M0907d
and here is a press release with pie charts
http://pn.psychiatryonline.org/content/42/15/31.2.full
Here is a list of a few hundred studies breaking down the numbers, you can look up individual ones if you like, but the researchers broke it down and said that almost all studies showed women were at least as aggressive if not more so.
http://www.csulb.edu/~mfiebert/assault.htm
and here is a different study finding women more often the aggressors
http://ajph.aphapublications.org/cgi/reprint/97/5/941
If you're still not convinced i suggest you read some of Erin Pizzey's work, a woman who founded some of the first women's shelters and who found that many of the women there were just as violent as the men they left. She was kicked out of her feminist organizations and subjected to death threats for saying this.
Yet rulings like this: http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:_FyA4HAXVGIJ:www.law.berkeley.edu/files/BlumhorstAmicusBrief.doc+nomas+files+amicus+brief+blumhorst&cd=1&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=us
pop up all over the states and the western world stating that since violence against men is a non issue womens shelters don't need to follow the law and admit men all the while ignoring that they aren't willing to spend any additional money for new shelter based on budget shortfalls.

I grabbed this link from one of my other forums, it contains the clip from the talk where they say an abused man deserved to have his penis cut off for trying to leave his wife. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wP4VeMJp9pE&feature=player_embedded

Here is a case file where a boy was, by the legal definition, raped http://www.lawlink.com/research/caselevel3/74059 naturally he is the only one who will face the possibility of jail time. I have more cases I can grab if you like.

So women abuse more but it's more severe when women get abused? Not really sure if that helps your argument that much but ok.

Good job on the sources though (not sarcasm).

 

[renegade7]

No, we aren't. Women still have to deal with shit that men don't have to, and you can't say the same about the opposite. I have no idea why everyone on the internet is so against feminism.

Because the most vocal feminists are man-haters who think gender equality will occur only when all men have been castrated. Of course it's the vocal 0.01%, but when people have issues with feminists, they're usually referring to that demographic.

 

[TheIronRuler]

Feminism is a great movement. It began as an answer to the inequality between men and women and even now it pushes towards equality between the genders in every field.
But you also have some crazy women that want to be better than men. Not very good. You also have crazy men that treat women as merchandise. Not good at all.
So... what do you do?
Educate and try to root out the problem. A girl that is raised by a crazy feminist that believes in female supremacy is just as bad as a boy that is raised by a misogynist father that believes women should serve men in bed and kitchen.
.
Referring to the question - We are reaching complete equality, but there are many fields where we need to "fix". But overall, you will never reach full equality because women have tits, and men can walk around shirtless and show their wicked body.
.
EDIT: I've looked around the thread and I want to say something regarding domestic abuse-
Men are more inclined to refuse to report it than women. You know why.
The same reason why Women are much more aware of breast cancer than how men are aware of prostate cancer.