Sexuality in Mass Effect

[Katana314]

One thing I can think of being a problem in trying to incorporate this is "what sort of dialogue choices indicate Shepard is more interested?" A male Shepard being a close friend to a guy like Garrus isn't exactly unusual. And then the player seeing a dialogue choice like "I have feelings for you, Garrus" would be...kinda creepy, to say the least, for a heterosexual player.

All I'm saying is the choices in the game are intentionally made subtle, and that would end up confusing and/or offending SOME group.

 

[RyVal]

One thing I can think of being a problem in trying to incorporate this is "what sort of dialogue choices indicate Shepard is more interested?" A male Shepard being a close friend to a guy like Garrus isn't exactly unusual. And then the player seeing a dialogue choice like "I have feelings for you, Garrus" would be...kinda creepy, to say the least, for a heterosexual player.

All I'm saying is the choices in the game are intentionally made subtle, and that would end up confusing and/or offending SOME group.

Yet the female option still exists. No doubt some people are offended by lesbianism, but that did not prevent BioWare from introducing it.

 

[Katana314]

Yeah, that does make me wonder if there were any female players just trying to be friends with Miranda, and then out of nowhere getting some very unexpected dialogue choices.

It'd be unfortunate if the only reason they did it that way was in expectation of having an all-male market.

 

[Lord_Panzer]

Having a relationship aspect in the first place is essentially fan-service.
Having the ability to have a lesbian relationship is essentially more fan-service.
Having the choice of making a male character have a relationship with another male character is essentially fan-service that wasn't included.

Why not? Who knows.

They're obviously not anti-gay, given that you have the option in Dragon Age. It was included in that game, and wasn't included in this one.

Big fat whoopty-do.

But WHY wasn't it included? That's the question of my OP. "Who knows" isn't a particularly worthwhile answer.

If you want a particularly worthwhile answer, ask Bioware. All we can do is guess.

 

[RyVal]

snip

(1) You can be a lesbian in Mass Effect 2.

(2) By the way, I'm only responding to that part of your post because it's the only part that actually made any sense.

(3) Oh, except for the part about the fingers, which is just kind of weird because I had never met anybody with hundreds of millions of fingers before. What kind of creature are you?

1. People are saying you can't. Moot point by now, it's not like i'm gonna go check.

You can. There are several female romance options in both the original and the sequel.

I was talking about Mass Effect 2. I wasn't aware that millions of male gay people play Mass Effect 2.

So because we are a minority demographic, we should just be ignored?

If so, why don't we just go ahead and remove all black characters from films. After all, they are only a minority demographic - why should the majority be forced to suffer?

If you want an easier to digest argument, here it is: stop making such a big deal out of it. I'm not bothered if there's gay sex in my games. Why are you bothered if there isn't?

I challenge you to name me 10 mainstream video games which feature a homosexual character.

Why should it be a "step down" for Bioware, and why should it become canon to have gay sex?

Because Role-Playing Games are about defining your own character, not having it dictated for you.

I'll just say that there are easier ways for a woman on the internet to find attention than by starting gender and sexuality discussions on a gaming forum. Just sayin'.

Maybe, but how many of them aren't morally degrading? Just sayin'.

Aaaaaaand this is where you lose all credibility.

 

[Teiwaz83]

Sorry, but homosexuals are still the minority.

Are lesbians not a minority? Why can you create a gay FemShep but not a gay ManShep?

Remember, lesbian sex doesn't just cater to the gay female segment of the game's audience.

Anyhow, part of the key here is that there are a large number of game retailers who make purchasing decisions in a very socially conservative manner. The number of games Wal-mart will buy, for instance, isn't based on the game's ESRB rating, but on its descriptor. "Gay sex" on the back of the box may cost you tens or hundreds of thousands of sales from non-specialty retailers. The reality is that it's just not worth the price of reduced sell-in to add a relatively minor feature to cater to a fairly small segment of the market (Doubly so when you're trying to court the shooter market, where the "angry homophobe" segment seems to outnumber the "openly gay" segment several times over) even *with* all the free publicity you'd get for having it.

 

[Pyode]

"Kelly doesn't count, you can't have sex with her" is a ridiculous argument. So a lesbian who's a virgin isn't a lesbian? A female Shepard can actively show interest and attraction in a female character. So, she's either a lesbian (or bisexual) or a drunk college girl, take your pick. And, yes, that was a joke.

Also, I discredit him for the fingers thing because it's a figure of speech meant to portray a minority as so miniscule as to be unimportant or unworthy of consideration. There are, again, hundreds of millions of gay, lesbian (and otherwise non-straight) people. So it's a moronic figure of speech to use unless you're trying to be purposefully derisive.

As for the rest of the post, I just thought it was an especially poorly-written version of "silly minorities, there they go trying to feel represented again." And I suppose you're allowed to think that way, but then I'm allowed to call it a shitty way to think.

I stand by my point about Kelly. As of now, neither Fem or Male Shepard have had gay sex. Kelly doesn't count, you cant have sex with her. I never said anything about it not being a lesbian relationship.

About the finger thing, yes, I admit that he may have been overstating it a bit, but that doesn't change his point that homosexuals are a minority and, as such, will always have a minority representation in art.

As for the rest, I don't see how he is saying that at all. He is simply saying that it's not that big of a deal that they aren't fully represented in every game. Especially since they where represented a few months ago in a game by the same company.

There is no "problem". I just think it's interesting that you can play lesbian but you can't play gay, and what that implies. I think it's interesting that people are reacting so aggressively. I know I said it "sucks" in my OP, but that's just hyperbole.

If that is really the case, then you should have re-read your post before submitting it, because it comes off as quite hostile and demanding, so you should have expected "aggressive" responses. That may not have been how you intended it, but that is definitely how it sounded. And what exactly does it imply? That Bioware is homophobic? Because DA:O kinda blows that argument out of the window.

As for the Asari, you said it yourself, the monogender thing is utter bullshit. Asari are female. They look female, have feminine voices and names, are able to give birth, and refer to themselves using the feminine pronoun. The sex scenes between an Asari and FemShep are absolutely meant to be understood as lesbian, so if that's the "main problem" with my complaint, then I'm feeling pretty airtight right now.

You kind of missed my point. I was saying that, from Bioware's point of view, there is technically no lesbian sex in either game, so they felt no obligation to put a scene for a gay male. Also, they actually don't refer to themselves using female pronouns, their language doesn't have sex based pronouns as they do not need them. The female pronouns come from the translation to English because there are no unisex pronouns in English.

Anyway, I'll restate my main point for clarification.

It's obvious that Bioware isn't entirely opposed to having a gay or bisexual character, so it stands to reason that if they didn't put the option in this game because they didn't feel like it. They don't always have to cater to every demographic. Let them tell the story that they want to tell.

 

[RyVal]

About the finger thing, yes, I admit that he may have been overstating it a bit, but that doesn't change his point that homosexuals are a minority and, as such, will always have a minority representation in art.

As for the rest, I don't see how he is saying that at all. He is simply saying that it's not that big of a deal that they aren't fully represented in every game. Especially since they where represented a few months ago in a game by the same company.

So, what, because we had one game that featured male homosexuality, gays should just shut up and be grateful?

I do not think it is entirely unreasonable to ask for a significant demographic to be catered for, especially when you are catering to a demographic that is roughly the same size and you have already catered to the former demographic in another recent game.

 

[Benjeezy]

About the finger thing, yes, I admit that he may have been overstating it a bit, but that doesn't change his point that homosexuals are a minority and, as such, will always have a minority representation in art.

As for the rest, I don't see how he is saying that at all. He is simply saying that it's not that big of a deal that they aren't fully represented in every game. Especially since they where represented a few months ago in a game by the same company.

So, what, because we had one game that featured male homosexuality, gays should just shut up and be grateful?

I do not think it is entirely unreasonable to ask for a significant demographic to be catered for, especially when you are catering to a demographic that is roughly the same size and you have already catered to the former demographic in another recent game.

Maybe a developer or series will do that soon...there's always the sequel.

 

[almostgold]

Sorry, but homosexuals are still the minority.

Are lesbians not a minority? Why can you create a gay FemShep but not a gay ManShep?

Remember, lesbian sex doesn't just cater to the gay female segment of the game's audience.

Anyhow, part of the key here is that there are a large number of game retailers who make purchasing decisions in a very socially conservative manner. The number of games Wal-mart will buy, for instance, isn't based on the game's ESRB rating, but on its descriptor. "Gay sex" on the back of the box may cost you tens or hundreds of thousands of sales from non-specialty retailers. The reality is that it's just not worth the price of reduced sell-in to add a relatively minor feature to cater to a fairly small segment of the market (Doubly so when you're trying to court the shooter market, where the "angry homophobe" segment seems to outnumber the "openly gay" segment several times over) even *with* all the free publicity you'd get for having it.

This is a good point. Sorry, but a company has the right to include whatever they please in their game to make profit, especially if your buying it by choice.

Also, the Asari are asexual. Doesn't qualify as lesbian sex.

 

[Me55enger]

Stab in the dark here, with the dull hope that lurking somewhere in the shadows is what i was aiming for in the first place.

"Gay Girl Gamers" as you so eloquently and alliterately coined is a target market so small, that the games developers would have more commercial success building a game for dead giraffes.

Nothing personal, you're just a group of people too small to register in the industry.

But GGG's are catered to by Mass Effect, since FemShep can be played as LesbianShep. So by your own reasoning, if Bioware will cater to my tiny demographic, surely they can cater to gay male gamers, who by virtue of being male are probably far more numerous.

Well, no... not really.

Again with my wild shadow stabbing as mentioned above, im going to say that at least 90% of the team building Mass Effect were male.

They were never catering for your demographic when they had "LesbianShep" running (repeatedly) through thier heads.

It is an undeniable truth that the gaming industry, both at creation and playing points are still male dominated, therefore anything produced is for a straight male audience. (unless otherwise obvious)

Again, nothing personal. Just that men are rather morally bankrupt in the confines of their own head.

EDIT: ironically, because of their moral bankruptcy, they do, more often than not, target you and your demographic rather well... i would assume.

 

[Danzaivar]

And as a gay girl gamer, I think that really sucks.

As a straight male gamer, it seems odd to me that they'd omit something like this too.

Why are we referencing our gender/sexuality here?

 

[Baconmonster723]

Honestly I see this as Bioware appealling to a demographic. The vast majority of players want straight relationships, and as strange as it may be, male players don't mind a lesbian relationship. However, the fact remains that homosexuality makes most people uncomfortable. It isn't homophobia, it's just that different beliefs cause friction.

Bioware may have wanted to add something like a purely homosexual relationship into this game, however, with the controversy stemming from the last game they may have had to back off. As a straight male, who is also a young adult I can see why this may be an issue to the homosexual community, since im not blinded by years of prejudice.

Does it suck? Sure. Keep in mind though that sexual scenes of this nature are rather edgy still. Maybe Bioware just wants to push the envelope, not blow it open. I fully expect there to be something next game after everything has cooled down.

Even if there isn't something in the next game, be glad that Bioware is a company that seems to wish for that possibility (as seen in Dragon Age with Zehvran). It may take a couple more games but it will come.

Keep this in mind. Bioware is not some homophobic organization, they may have just been testing the waters with Dragon Age. Once that didn't blow up they may not have had time to rush in a homosexual interest for Shepard in Mass Effect 2.

Look to the future. Bioware has proven they are willing to make homosexual relationships in their games, it is only a matter of time until they come out with something that appeases the homosexual gamer. It may take time, but just realize that a straight and even lesbian relationship is much easier to pull off than an openly homosexual one.

Edit: By openly homosexual I mean with a character that is not bisexual, and is simply a homosexual character. Just thought I should clarify. The lesbian relationships have all been with bisexual characters.

It will happen. Just give it time.

 

[Riobux]

And as a gay girl gamer, I think that really sucks.

As a straight male gamer, it seems odd to me that they'd omit something like this too.

Why are we referencing our gender/sexuality here?

I think because it holds some little reference to the subject. It's one thing for a gay male to complain about the lack of gay male characters in games, another for a gay female to complain the same thing and yet another thing for a straight male or straight female to say the same thing.

However, the point I mention that Dragon Age doesn't exactly give a good example of a bisexual I think is irrelevant to whatever my sexuality is.

 

[IrrelevantTangent]

Just a quick note: I don't know if it's still like this, but I'm not taking any chances. Anyone posting in this thread from now on, that guy who started a flame war in this thread and said gay peoples' brains were 'malformed' changed his avatar to Goatse. I wish I was fucking kidding. Disable images if you plan on viewing past pages, for your own good.



That said:

OT: I'm a little surprised that the actual sex scene in ME2 is shorter than ME 1. Not that I mind, but that might explain why there isn't any new controversy about ME 2.

Ah well. I just hope most of the new romance options- Garrus, Tali, Miranda, e.t.c.- will remain in your party for ME 3. It'd be a shame to have to start a new romance sidequest all over again.

 

[RyVal]

So because we are a minority demographic, we should just be ignored?

I'm not saying you should be abandoned and exiled somewhere, so don't twist my meaning.

Your meaning was evidently clear; minorities should not be catered to.

There are other niche groups that have never been given representation in games, and haven't gone posting on forums that they're being "ignored".

Homosexuals are hardly anymore of a niche group than most other ethnic minorities, who still receive more representation than we do.

Hey, i can come up with a similar argument: let's take an RPG which is about everything except sex and turn it into a sex simulator where you can have all the sex you want with all the little niche groups and minorities you feel like roleplaying at the time.

Already exists - just look at Japan.

Exaggeration for the win? Or let me guess: you don't care about other groups, you just want *gay* sex.

Because it is obvious that I am the one who is solely concerned with their own demographic, and not you with your "Be in the majority or suck it up" rhetoric.

I challenge you to name me 10 mainstream video games which feature a homosexual character.

Homosexuality isn't mainstream, so i'm afraid i can't respond to that challenge.

So you can't - thus rendering your point that you don't complain about "gay sex in video games" moot, since such titles barely exist, and also dismissing your "You can't be represented in every game" argument.

Because Role-Playing Games are about defining your own character, not having it dictated for you.

I don't see why "my character can't be gay" should be more of a problem than "my character can't be a hermaphrodite" or "my character can't be a muslim".

For one, Islam is unlikely to be featured in fictional fantasy/sci-fi games.

But go ahead. Feature all those and more.

Of course you could pretend to be those things, as well as you could easily choose not to romance anyone of the same gender. But you want the game to acknowledge you, don't you. Regardless of anyone else.

Look at Dragon Age: Origins. The male bisexual character does not make their sexuality explicitly clear. The only way you are able to ascertain it is by purposefully choosing romantic options and uncovering it.

So how is this going to negatively affect your own game experience, when the only way you would even notice it is if you were intentionally trying to find it?

That's exactly my problem with this thread.

Your whole point seems to be "Oppressive gays want gay characters in video games at the expense of straight people", purposefully ignoring the fact that homosexuals have been tolerating video games which have consisted purely of heterosexuals for years. Double standards, much?

Aaaaaaand this is where you lose all credibility.

How enlightening.

Your statement was indeed very enlightening.

 

[Tarkand]

One thing I can think of being a problem in trying to incorporate this is "what sort of dialogue choices indicate Shepard is more interested?" A male Shepard being a close friend to a guy like Garrus isn't exactly unusual. And then the player seeing a dialogue choice like "I have feelings for you, Garrus" would be...kinda creepy, to say the least, for a heterosexual player.

All I'm saying is the choices in the game are intentionally made subtle, and that would end up confusing and/or offending SOME group.

Yeah, I mentionned that earlier.

One of the very early line with Jacob is something along the line of 'You're keeping in shape'. Not knowing that there wasn't a gay romance in the game, I thought that might be the start of flirtatious dialogue option.

I don't have anything against homosexual, but I'm not interested in role playing a gay character, so I didn't hit that option.

I'm not sure DA should really be used as 'That game had a gay-sex option!'... yes it did, but Zevran portrays most of the negative stereotypes of homosexuality and is in fact bi-sexual anyway... than again, I suppose being represented in a bad light is better than being left in the dark entirely. Not to mention that Zevran is the only party member that you can outright kill instead of having him join you...

I thought many of the conversation with Zevran were akward... didn't stop me from keeping him in my party and pursuing the conversation, but yeah, being hit on by a guy isn't an experience I find particularly enjoyable (And it has happened to me irl as well). The thing with Zevran was how he was damn right blunt with his interest in you and telling him to quit it would result in a lost of approval... so you kinda had to put up with what was just short of a sexual harassment or he'd be pissed off at you.

Guess the video game media still has long way to go to be all that grown up in that aspect.

 

[DominicxD]

You know, maybe its possible for Mass Effect not to include a gay choice for men because they didn't want to?

Also, to put this in the a way that wont get me banned; If all homosexual were like Mother yeti, I would proudly be homophobic.