Sexualized characters that were done right.

[DementedSheep]

I have to say Miranda from Mass Effect. Everybody complains how sexist her ass is or whatever,

You know, I've heard people criticize her character as just being fanservice, but I have never heard someone refer to it as "a sexist ass". I like it.

Haha, glad I could amuse you. I actually read something like "her ass is just so sexist blahblahbla..." in one of those pointless internet-sexism-discussions, and all I could think was: "Just having a hot ass is sexist now? Calm down people."

"Just having a hot ass"
Yes I'm sure the fact that miss 'professional' was wondering around and fighting in a suit so tight it rides into her ass crack (professionalism at its finest folks!) and the fact that they zoom the camera up on her ass when you are talking to her has absolutely nothing to do with that.

Displaying a female character as attractive is not automatically sexism or sexist, maybe she wears it for mobility issues, I train in skin tight apparel thats called rashguards. So what if the cam sometimes focuses on her ass, If I were Shep I would do that too. She is not a stupid bimbo or anything, so I don't see where the suit and the cam focus diminish her character or anything, its just added perks.

Sure because you need to have something riding up your ass crack for mobility and the heels help with that to I suppose.
It is neither professional nor practical two things she supposedly is.

You would focus on her ass? well not everyone who plays games is horny guy even if devs treat the camera like its from the perspective of one and would you perv on someone while they are upset or talking about something very personal for them? because that's how much respect they show Miranda's character. Would a crotch shot of Thane while he's talking about his dead wife be appropriate and "sexualized characters done right"?

Granted bioware is pretty terrible with sexuality for everyone including some of the men. I'm less annoyed at "sexism" and more at that this is terrible example of how to do sexualisation well without diminishing the character.

 

[Chris Tian]

I have to say Miranda from Mass Effect. Everybody complains how sexist her ass is or whatever,

You know, I've heard people criticize her character as just being fanservice, but I have never heard someone refer to it as "a sexist ass". I like it.

Haha, glad I could amuse you. I actually read something like "her ass is just so sexist blahblahbla..." in one of those pointless internet-sexism-discussions, and all I could think was: "Just having a hot ass is sexist now? Calm down people."

"Just having a hot ass"
Yes I'm sure the fact that miss 'professional' was wondering around and fighting in a suit so tight it rides into her ass crack (professionalism at its finest folks!) and the fact that they zoom the camera up on her ass when you are talking to her has absolutely nothing to do with that.

Displaying a female character as attractive is not automatically sexism or sexist, maybe she wears it for mobility issues, I train in skin tight apparel thats called rashguards. So what if the cam sometimes focuses on her ass, If I were Shep I would do that too. She is not a stupid bimbo or anything, so I don't see where the suit and the cam focus diminish her character or anything, its just added perks.

Sure because you need to have something riding up your ass crack for mobility and the heels help with that to I supose. It is neither professional nor practical two things she supposedly is.

You would focus on her ass? well not everyone who plays games is horny guy even if devs treat the camera like its from the perspective of one and would you perv on someone while they are upset or talking about something very personal for them? because that's how much respect they show Miranda's character. Would a crotch shot of Thane while he's talking about his dead wife be appropriate and "sexuality done right"?

The way you talk makes it sound like the cam would always be focused on her ass while she bends over. I remember ME2+3 vastly differently, there were a few shots where you can see her ass, when shes standing facing away from you, and one where her ass is literally in focus while you talk to her in the Specter HQ in ME3.

I'm really sorry that I can't entertain you with an interesting debate, because I could literally not care less if something like this is now widely regarded as sexist. I can honestly not see why and how any of this is bad, if you would care to explain, than I would like to hear why this issue upsets you.

 

[DementedSheep]

I have to say Miranda from Mass Effect. Everybody complains how sexist her ass is or whatever,

You know, I've heard people criticize her character as just being fanservice, but I have never heard someone refer to it as "a sexist ass". I like it.

Haha, glad I could amuse you. I actually read something like "her ass is just so sexist blahblahbla..." in one of those pointless internet-sexism-discussions, and all I could think was: "Just having a hot ass is sexist now? Calm down people."

"Just having a hot ass"
Yes I'm sure the fact that miss 'professional' was wondering around and fighting in a suit so tight it rides into her ass crack (professionalism at its finest folks!) and the fact that they zoom the camera up on her ass when you are talking to her has absolutely nothing to do with that.

Displaying a female character as attractive is not automatically sexism or sexist, maybe she wears it for mobility issues, I train in skin tight apparel thats called rashguards. So what if the cam sometimes focuses on her ass, If I were Shep I would do that too. She is not a stupid bimbo or anything, so I don't see where the suit and the cam focus diminish her character or anything, its just added perks.

Sure because you need to have something riding up your ass crack for mobility and the heels help with that to I supose. It is neither professional nor practical two things she supposedly is.

You would focus on her ass? well not everyone who plays games is horny guy even if devs treat the camera like its from the perspective of one and would you perv on someone while they are upset or talking about something very personal for them? because that's how much respect they show Miranda's character. Would a crotch shot of Thane while he's talking about his dead wife be appropriate and "sexuality done right"?

The way you talk makes it sound like the cam would always be focused on her ass while she bends over. I remember ME2+3 vastly differently, there were a few shots where you can see her ass, when shes standing facing away from you, and one where her ass is literally in focus while you talk to her in the Specter HQ in ME3.

I'm really sorry that I can't entertain you with an interesting debate, because I could literally not care less if something like this is now widely regarded as sexist. I can honestly not see why and how any of this is bad, if you would care to explain, than I would like to hear why this issue upsets you.

I edited my post to clarify that its not sexism (because bioware doesn't treat Kaiden, Thane or Jacob the best either) so much that I really don't consider Miranda sexuality done right. In fact I think she's pretty bad in that regard. I'm also not actually that upset off either, I'm just annoyed.
If you don't remember I'm specifically talking about stuff like this. They weren't exactly subtle and if you look her up this is by far the most common image.

They do it during the actual mission to rescue her sister and when she is confiding about some of her insecurities to. Stuff like this is treating the character like a sex prop, who care what they are saying? just want to perv at their ass. It also making an assumption that your audience wants to look at their ass and it's awkward and throws you out if you don't. I don't mind it during the actual romance scenes or when she is showing off and they do the panning thing because that wasn't so blatant. But the one above and some of the others was very blatant and in a totally inappropriate context. Mass effect is pretty character driven but then they do shit like this? it's stupid.
It also doesn't help that the first was more sci fi and less straight futuristic fantasy so impractically stands out more.

I don't know if you have every had the experience of noticing someone just perving on you when you are talking to them but I have and it's awful. It feels very disrepectfull, dehumanising and totally different from when you are actually 'being sexy'. If you want sexuality done right the character should own it, it should complement not go against their character and it should match the tone of the scene and style of the game. It should not be 4th wall breaking forced perving.

 

[Chris Tian]

snipped cause huge post

Hm, I never noticed that, sure I noticed her nice ass and that some scenes where showing it off, but it felt never inappropriate to me or "threw me out of the game" or unfitting to her as a character.

To the other question, the answer would heavily depend on how you define "perving on me while I talk".

 

[DementedSheep]

snipped cause huge post

Hm, I never noticed that, sure I noticed her nice ass and that some scenes where showing it off, but it felt never inappropriate to me or "threw me out of the game" or unfitting to her as a character.

To the other question, the answer would heavily depend on how you define "perving on me while I talk".

In a game the camera is your viewpoint. It less likely throw you out are are actually attracted to woman's asses. Again not everyone is.
I assume your a guy so you'd don't have massive things on your chests that women generally like to stare at so its a bit less obvious. Like you are talking to a female friend about something your passionate about, was important or serious like one of the ones I had when was about relative who had died a few days ago and then realised they hadn't heard a word you said because they were staring at your crotch instead. Especially if they are doing it very openly.

 

[Chris Tian]

In a game the camera is your viewpoint. It less likely throw you out are are actually attracted to woman's asses.

Okay I get that point. I can't know if having the cam focus Mirandas ass throws you of if you arn't attracted to that, since I am attracted to womens behinds, very greatly in fact. So I will take your word for it.

I assume your a guy so you'd don't have massive things on your chests that women generally like to stare at so its a bit less obvious. Like you are talking to a female friend about something your passionate about, was important or serious like one of the ones I had when was about relative who had died a few days ago and then realised they hadn't heard a word you said because they were staring at your crotch instead. Especially if they are doing it very openly.

Yes, I'm a guy.

That never happend with a topic like a dead relative, but things down that alley happen to me.

I'm a semi-pro Martial Arts and Fitness coach, I take that very seriously and I know for a fact that some women in some of the courses are just there to see me sweat in skintight rashguards, do high kicks and whatnot and wrestle other guys down. I'm not really bothered by it, I look good, I know that, its a nice bonus effect of my training and knowing that people find me so hot as to watch me for 2 hours per week flatters me greatly. I don't want to say everybody should feel flattered or anything like that, don't get me wrong, I'm just super relaxed about this kind of stuff, even about getting touched by strangers.

 

[Gankytim]

Snipped oh shit.

Forgive my assumptions. It was 1am over here and I just got back from "celebrating" (glug glug) my friends birthday, I guess I wasn't reading into your posts properly.

 

[wulf3n]

It's been a good few years since I last played any H-L, but I only ever recall hints at romantic, not sexual, interest. In certain moments she seems to have a crush on the mute PC, but nothing more.

That is an accurate assessment.

I've no idea what montage you're referring to, so yeah, evidently.

Turns out it doesn't actually exist. I would have been willing to bet money someone on the internet had made one :|

I played through H-L2 a whole boatload of times, ditto the lesser (in my view) episodes, and Alyx's interest in Gordon was so minimal as to be irrelevant.

Certainly a minor theme in the grand scheme but I wouldn't go so far as to say it was irrelevant.

It certainly wasn't a major factor in why she became such a flag bearer for improved depictions of female characters.

I agree. Wasn't I saying she was a good character?

When a character is designed - visually, and through writing and performance - to buck industry conventions of white, heteronormative masculinist tropes, I think it's safe to say she's not sexualised in the slightest.

But as we've established, you seem to have a unique definition of the term itself, so it's a tricky dialogue and this is stuck in Semanticland.

My favourite place to be. I'm looking at buying a place there

But on a serious note it's because we're not actually addressing the definition before proceeding. Though most don't want to discuss semantics.

 

[Angelblaze]

When some say "oh it's still a man's world" (implying it's a problem) they seem to be forgetting that's it's primarily because men have played the dominating role in creating everything as we know today and driving progress in all fields.

Change that and media will change accordingly. Change consumer trends and media will change accordingly.

And things ARE changing, it's just that we need to wait many more years/decades to see it happen.

People think "raising awareness" and labelling it as a "problem" is going to speed up change, but really it's not going to do squat over a global scale. Change in fictional media will happen when it needs to, at the pace that it wants to.

In other words, check your privilege, dude.

My only privilege appears to be the ability to take a step back and look at the broader picture : /

Hey quick question

If you don't say you want a cupcake, how am I supposed to know you want a cupcake?

By you saying you want a cupcake.

Same story here. Raising awareness that you want something in your media is what makes change happen in the first place. Things aren't just changing because of the passing of time, they are changing because women are beginning to rake in the dough irl and are starting to speak with their money. Approximately 4/10 households has a woman being the breadwinner nowadays. That's whats changing the landscape.

Not saying anything and sitting idly by is what the catered to do.

It's good women are finally earning money, but asking for 50/50 equality in media (especially videogames) comes across as a bit ridiculous considering extremely few women are interesting in actually MAKING games. They are asking purely to be catered to.
In that regard they are sitting idly by and asking for change to happen, not actually driving it.

The problem with that is that men have already been catered to.

Think up any male sexual fantasy type and I can assure you, there will be at least one decent example - and I mean *any*.

I would really like my playable main character male succubus/incubi in a 3-d western made action game pls.

 

[DementedSheep]

snipped cause huge post

Hm, I never noticed that, sure I noticed her nice ass and that some scenes where showing it off, but it felt never inappropriate to me or "threw me out of the game" or unfitting to her as a character.

To the other question, the answer would heavily depend on how you define "perving on me while I talk".

In a game the camera is your viewpoint. It less likely throw you out are are actually attracted to woman's asses. Again not everyone is.
I assume your a guy so you'd don't have massive things on your chests that women generally like to stare at so its a bit less obvious. Like you are talking to a female friend about something your passionate about, was important or serious like one of the ones I had when was about relative who had died a few days ago and then realised they hadn't heard a word you said because they were staring at your crotch instead. Especially if they are doing it very openly.

I do not stare at girls chests, especially not if I am in a conversation with them, because that is a shitty thing to do. Kind of throws a monkey wrench into that analogy doesn't it?

How? it is a shitty thing to do, that my point and of course not everyone dose it. I'm not accusing all men of doing this all the time or anything or even being more prevy that women. Its just women aren't likely standing in front of you obviously perving unless you have no shirt on or something. If you are referring to my talk about the camera being your viewpoint then I'm not trying to say that only people not attracted to women would be thrown out by this or that all people who aren't attracted to what begin focused on would be. Just that it is more likely.

 

[DementedSheep]

snipped cause huge post

Hm, I never noticed that, sure I noticed her nice ass and that some scenes where showing it off, but it felt never inappropriate to me or "threw me out of the game" or unfitting to her as a character.

To the other question, the answer would heavily depend on how you define "perving on me while I talk".

In a game the camera is your viewpoint. It less likely throw you out are are actually attracted to woman's asses. Again not everyone is.
I assume your a guy so you'd don't have massive things on your chests that women generally like to stare at so its a bit less obvious. Like you are talking to a female friend about something your passionate about, was important or serious like one of the ones I had when was about relative who had died a few days ago and then realised they hadn't heard a word you said because they were staring at your crotch instead. Especially if they are doing it very openly.

I do not stare at girls chests, especially not if I am in a conversation with them, because that is a shitty thing to do. Kind of throws a monkey wrench into that analogy doesn't it?

How? it is a shitty thing to do, that my point and of course not everyone dose it. I'm not accusing all men of doing this all the time or anything or even being more prevy that women. Its just women aren't likely standing in front of you obviously perving unless you have no shirt on or something. If you are referring to my talk about the camera being your viewpoint then I'm not trying to say that only people not attracted to women would be thrown out by this or that all people who aren't attracted to what begin focused on would be. Just that it is more likely.

Your analogy was based on a preconception that most men just stare at girl's chests. I would wager the vast majority of men don't, because we understand that doing so, at the very least, is counterproductive in interpersonal communication.

I have dealt with many women who tune me out in conversations because they think I am a nerd so I must be a creepy introvert or because I am not ruggedly handsome enough to be worth their attention, but I don't hold that against all women, because I understand that the women in these instances are shitty people.

Uh no, Some men do and its rude and feels awful or are you going to deny that to? I never even said most. Its not like I'm going count the number men who stare at girls chests and work out the raito. I don't know why you are trying to turn this into general statement about men. Are just jumping in at the end of the conversation? the reason this even bought up is in first place is the ass cam during a character talking about an important issue to them and I was explaining why I don't like it.

 

[Something Amyss]

*shrug* I just know somone here once said they didn't see the big deal because all of it was just "apreciating the beuty of women" like...thanks dude....I get it now, its about your feelings...sorry to be such a meanie

I'm aware of it (unfortunately). I just don't get it. If you want to appreciate female beauty, there's tons of it around. If you want to look at a cartoony giraffe, well...I don't care what you do in your personal life, but don't pretend it's because it's feminine beauty.

and it wasn't even for them

Yes, but it's different when it's not intended for men. That's wrong. When it's not intended for women, they should respect it.

For many games, story and characters are very important though; at times even their main selling points. Those are the games that absolutely need good characters.

Errr...Which ones are those?

Don't get me wrong, I agree with most of your points, but this....This is kid of tough to justify. Most of the characters heralded as the best are either not very good (Rockstar protagonists, for example), or empty vessels for the player (Gordon Freeman comes to mind).

 

[Vault101]

I'm aware of it (unfortunately). I just don't get it. If you want to appreciate female beauty, there's tons of it around. If you want to look at a cartoony giraffe, well...I don't care what you do in your personal life, but don't pretend it's because it's feminine beauty.

youre not suposed to get it..because its a stupid excuse

 

[Eclectic Dreck]

When a character is designed - visually, and through writing and performance - to buck industry conventions of white, heteronormative masculinist tropes, I think it's safe to say she's not sexualised in the slightest.

That's a false assumption from the outset. Sexualization does not actually relate to any particular perspective or quality of character development or design - at least not in any meaningful general case scenario. There are, after all, huge variations in what would be sexually appealing to any particular audience member or artist. Further, entirely repressing any expression of sexuality tends to play just as implausibly as overt sexualization. We are, in general at least, sexual creatures and huge portions of our lives do, as a general rule, revolve around exploring and expressing our sexuality.

Sexualization of a character can easily be an important building block of a character but like any aspect of personality or design, if that one block becomes the entire design conceit, chances are very good that your character will be seen as poorly constructed. There is, after all, something between asexual creature and roving sexual innuendo.

 

[CloudAtlas]

For many games, story and characters are very important though; at times even their main selling points. Those are the games that absolutely need good characters.

Errr...Which ones are those?

Don't get me wrong, I agree with most of your points, but this....This is kid of tough to justify. Most of the characters heralded as the best are either not very good (Rockstar protagonists, for example), or empty vessels for the player (Gordon Freeman comes to mind).

BioWare games come to mind, The Last of Us, BioShock: Infinite, or Indie Games like Gone Home. Heck, if I bought Wolfenstein: New World Order, it would be because its story is praised everywhere (including even tasteful, non-cringeworthy sex scenes apparently), not so much because of the gameplay. "Many games" might have been the wrong phrase though, but narrative-driven games do exist - games that are worth playing primarily for their story and/or characters.

 

[Silvanus]

I came into this thread expecting to find about five hundred female examples to one or two male examples. Still looking for that second male example...


It beggars belief that people still argue that sexualisation is even-handed in video games.

EDIT: Oh, there he is! On the third page there's another dude.

 

[lord.jeff]

Having a well written character in a skimpy outfit is not sexualation done right, it's putting a good character into pointless wank material, if you want a good example of a sexualized character it's Tina Belcher.

 

[gargantual]

wul3n, that's not what we're talking about... You're misunderstanding this thread,

I like to think of it as transcending this thread

Why limit "sexualisation" to only the visual. Personality is just as, if not more important to the sexualisation of a character.

and are rather besmirching Alyx's legacy.

Only if you consider sexualisation to be inherently bad.

All you're actually saying is that 'Alyx Vance is a cut above the rest' - and that's largely because from a design POV she's not sexualised. If anything, she's rather sexless (which is fine, given the contexts of the story).

She's not "visually" sexualised in the standard game/comic book sense, and to a lot of people that's more appealing.

But what I'm saying is that if there was a checklist for what male nerds desired most out their love interest, Alyx would tick every box with flying colours.

And to me, that is an example of sexualisation of a character done right.

You mean intimately receptive or emotionally receptive?

 

[BlindChance]

How is it that we're six posts in and Shaundi hasn't been brought up once? Oh, I know that other Shaundi got brought up, but where's Shaundi in all this?

OK, OK, I'll stop being stupid.

But for serious, Shaundi, Saints Row 2. Why? Because she's astonishingly positively portrayed in her sexuality. Despite having fucked half of Stillwater, she resists shaming. Her sexuality doesn't even really define her: Hedonism does. Whether it's drugs, sex or booze, she's down with it. The one time anyone attempts to deride her for it is when Pierce berates the Boss for waiting around "to hear from one of the thousands of guys Shaundi's fucked!" And, beautifully, wonderfully, Shaundi just shrugs it off. As if to say, "Hey, if you're not happy with your sex life, that's your problem. I am very, very happy with mine."

Just fantastic writing there. I was sad to see her writing take a serious dip in the Third (with granted, something of an improvement in IV).

 

[keniakittykat]

Ivy Valentine.
No, seriously. The character is often used as an example of everything that's wrong with the gaming industry, but when my 14 year old self first played SC2 I thought she was awesome!
A no-nonsense noblewoman who's also an alchemist, a weapon smith, and has enough talent and intelligence to back it up.
I had never seen a character like that before.

And being the chubby nerd that 14 year old me was, being able to kick ass in purple lingerie with a sharp whip really was the ultimate power fantasy for me.