I can't believe that you'd spread such a gender stereotype.The Almighty Aardvark said:
Shocking that you think that women wouldn't want to double click the mouse to sexy Shelob.
Sexy Shelob...why? Just why?
- Thread starter Erttheking
- Start date
Shocking that you think that women wouldn't want to double click the mouse to sexy Shelob.
erttheking said:Oh for fuck's sake. Are you just ignoring my point to play victim? Of course you are. People can actually do nuance with violence in gaming. They struggle to do anything with sex other than "LOOK! TITS!" IE, the same thing that they're doing in this game.hanselthecaretaker said:American pop culture in a nutshell:
"Whoa...awesome!!"
"Whoa...OMG/lame/cliche/disgusting cover your eyes junior!!"
Apparently it's you who are the victim here since it's bothering you so much. All I'm doing is pointing out the irrational double standard at play, but really couldn't care less at the end of the day.
What would you have done for this character: left her the same or try something radical? Somewhere in the middle? The developers obviously chose to appeal to their target audiences' more baser instincts so unless you think enough bitching will change their minds, whoever plays this game is stuck with accepting it for what it is.
Besides, maybe it'll actually be more subtle or nuanced than everyone thinks. You're screaming "LOOK! TITS!" but I don't even see cleavage in the OP example pic.
Are they using MOCAP for the human animation? If so, that might've been why they went with a human shape. Might simply be easier to animate a human, as they've already got all the mechanics for that in the engine with the other humanoids. Perhaps the animation physics for a mini-van sized, 8 legged monster wasn't as easy, and they didn't want to spend the time/money on perfecting it.
I mean, it's not the first time that a game company has had to make a change to something, because "We just couldn't get it to work right, and look good in the physics engine". So it MIGHT be that.
Personally I doubt it, and they were just going for sex appeal, because sex sells. But, devil's advocate and all.
I mean, it's not the first time that a game company has had to make a change to something, because "We just couldn't get it to work right, and look good in the physics engine". So it MIGHT be that.
Personally I doubt it, and they were just going for sex appeal, because sex sells. But, devil's advocate and all.
Lagging a bit there on the reply time mate. Yeah, except your double standard doesn't have a leg to stand on. It only works if I thinks there should never be tits in gaming ever. Which I don't, but you were too busy playing victim to notice.hanselthecaretaker said:erttheking said:Oh for fuck's sake. Are you just ignoring my point to play victim? Of course you are. People can actually do nuance with violence in gaming. They struggle to do anything with sex other than "LOOK! TITS!" IE, the same thing that they're doing in this game.hanselthecaretaker said:American pop culture in a nutshell:
"Whoa...awesome!!"
"Whoa...OMG/lame/cliche/disgusting cover your eyes junior!!"
Apparently it's you who are the victim here since it's bothering you so much. All I'm doing is pointing out the irrational double standard at play, but really couldn't care less at the end of the day.
What would you have done for this character: left her the same or try something radical? Somewhere in the middle? The developers obviously chose to appeal to their target audiences' more baser instincts so unless you think enough bitching will change their minds, whoever plays this game is stuck with accepting it for what it is.
Besides, maybe it'll actually be more subtle or nuanced than everyone thinks. You're screaming "LOOK! TITS!" but I don't even see cleavage in the OP example pic.
His about giant spider who devours orcs. You know. Like the original character? Maybe pretend someone working on this game actually watched or read Lord of the Rings? I'm sorry, appeal to their target audience more? Their target audience is Tolkien fans and people who bought the first game, how does this appeal to them? It actively pisses off the former, because it takes a terrifying force of nature from the work they love and turns her into a generic goth girl. So your mindset is just "shut the fuck up." Oh, I'm so sorry you don't want to hear my contrasting opinion. But question. Do you ever complain about a game ever? Do you always expect those complaints to automatically lead to change? If you don't, where the fuck do you get off of accusing me of bitching and implying I should stop? God forbid I care about games and don't just mindlessly swallow everything given to me. If you want to do that, I won't stop you, it's your right, but don't expect others to okay along.
HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA! The game set in the same universe as a man who kills thousands of orcs, fights Sauron, and generally shits all over the morals and philosophy of Tolkien's work in the name of a shallow revenge fantasy. Being subtle. Good one. Oh yeah, clearly those are just jam donuts stuffed down her dress. Are you done insulting my intelligence?
EDIT. And are you going to respond to that first reply I sent you?
Clearly you love this franchise and take it seriously, I get that. However, have they ever stated they were going to be completely cannon and true to the lore with these games? I highly doubt it, and if they had, then that's on them.erttheking said:Lagging a bit there on the reply time mate. Yeah, except your double standard doesn't have a leg to stand on. It only works if I thinks there should never be tits in gaming ever. Which I don't, but you were too busy playing victim to notice.hanselthecaretaker said:erttheking said:Oh for fuck's sake. Are you just ignoring my point to play victim? Of course you are. People can actually do nuance with violence in gaming. They struggle to do anything with sex other than "LOOK! TITS!" IE, the same thing that they're doing in this game.hanselthecaretaker said:American pop culture in a nutshell:
"Whoa...awesome!!"
"Whoa...OMG/lame/cliche/disgusting cover your eyes junior!!"
Apparently it's you who are the victim here since it's bothering you so much. All I'm doing is pointing out the irrational double standard at play, but really couldn't care less at the end of the day.
What would you have done for this character: left her the same or try something radical? Somewhere in the middle? The developers obviously chose to appeal to their target audiences' more baser instincts so unless you think enough bitching will change their minds, whoever plays this game is stuck with accepting it for what it is.
Besides, maybe it'll actually be more subtle or nuanced than everyone thinks. You're screaming "LOOK! TITS!" but I don't even see cleavage in the OP example pic.
His about giant spider who devours orcs. You know. Like the original character? Maybe pretend someone working on this game actually watched or read Lord of the Rings? I'm sorry, appeal to their target audience more? Their target audience is Tolkien fans and people who bought the first game, how does this appeal to them? It actively pisses off the former, because it takes a terrifying force of nature from the work they love and turns her into a generic goth girl. So your mindset is just "shut the fuck up." Oh, I'm so sorry you don't want to hear my contrasting opinion. But question. Do you ever complain about a game ever? Do you always expect those complaints to automatically lead to change? If you don't, where the fuck do you get off of accusing me of bitching and implying I should stop? God forbid I care about games and don't just mindlessly swallow everything given to me. If you want to do that, I won't stop you, it's your right, but don't expect others to okay along.
HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA! The game set in the same universe as a man who kills thousands of orcs, fights Sauron, and generally shits all over the morals and philosophy of Tolkien's work in the name of a shallow revenge fantasy. Being subtle. Good one. Oh yeah, clearly those are just jam donuts stuffed down her dress. Are you done insulting my intelligence?
This one?erttheking said:
erttheking said:This is the second time I've asked this, why do we need an emotional connection to the spawn of the Tolkien version of a Lovecraftian horror? Her mother was so viciously dedicating to eating absolutely everything that when she ran out of things to eat, she ate herself. Why would anyone want to relate to her? She's a horrific monster that Sauron himself couldn't fully control. Talion making an alliance with her is, at the very best, making an alliance with a lesser evil, if not an outright Faustian bargain. None of this adds up with anything.hanselthecaretaker said:I guess it says most people who play the game (adolescent males) would relate more to the sexy version than the spider version.
They could've at least done a hybrid but that would kinda be ripping off
Again, you are clearly better versed in this IP's lore because I have no idea wtf you just said. I managed to sit through the original LotR trilogy on winter break a couple years back, and have still only seen the first Hobbit, let alone have time to read the books. The movies were enjoyable but didn't get any warm fuzzies from them like you and legions of other fans must have gotten.
I made a generalized statement about the developers taking (however shallow) artistic liberties with whatever source material they're dabbling in to appeal to a broader spectrum of players. If you're as much of a Tolkien fanatic as you seem to be, that statement alone should have been enough to realize my position on this is too trivial to even warrant a serious response to.
Here is the way I kind of think about it Er. I get where you are coming from with wanting more for Shelob, however I also don't think you should condemn it the way you are. Look could Shelob be a spider? Yeah. But the developer decided that they wanted to make a human model for the character, so what? Sorry that someone else's art doesn't appeal to you, but they are under no obligation to cater to your tastes, nor anyone else's.erttheking said:
Frankly this is one of the reasons why I try to not criticize games for art choices. I believe that a game can be great despite a odd or weak character here and there. But if the overall mechanics, gameplay, story, etc is good then the game is fine. Nothing can appeal to everyone and I don't feel that you should blast something because it doesn't suit your tastes. Do you condemn Hershey for making Chocolate when you think Skittles are far more interesting? No and a character design in a game is a very subjective thing. So you don't think it. Great, but this whole rant and confrontational sort of tone in your posts just seems overboard for something that is not important. (apologizes if you aren't trying to get confrontational, it just is how it seems by reading your stuff, I mean no offense.)
^I think he's interpreting it more as if Hershey's said "Fuck chocolate" one day and decided to make a Skittles knock-off, only more generic and diabetes-laden than they already are. I get that, but yeah at the same time they're both technically still just candy.
And? That doesn't make the ideas they come up with any less stupid. Sauron, lord of all evil, being beaten with QTEs was still stupid in the first game, regardless of if it's canon or not. I mean, why even bother calling it Shelob if it's going to more or less be Original Character (do not steal) if it's not going to be like her at all? Name recognition? What's the bloody point of name recognition for something unrecognizable?hanselthecaretaker said:
Yes, that one, thank you.
I'm really not that much of a Tolkien fanatic. I've been meaning to read the books, but I haven't. I am, however, familiar with a good chunk of the background material. And it says a lot that most of my information comes from TV Tropes, and even I know how badly the devs screwed up. It's just like I said above. Why name drop Shelob if the character we're having is nothing like her?
I get the idea behind defending people who want to make artistic choices, but if this is an artistic choice, it's an utterly lazy artistic choice. But here's the thing. I have a hard time swallowing that it is an artistic choice, because there's clearly a lot of creative minds at work on Shadow of Mordor. You just need to take a random sample of all the Orc personalities to get a feel for that. I refuse to swallow that the people who came up with everything from this OrcCritialGaming said:
To these guys.
To this crazy ************
Couldn't think of anything interesting to do with Shelob. This feels like a move designed to be safe, shallow pandering. Probably executive mandated.
I'm confrontational because I've had the old "You must be a puritan who hates sexuality of any kind in games, but loves gore in all of his games" card pulled at me. A bullshit and insulting strawman argument.
I think calling it pandering is a little heavy handed. But you gotta figure that they want to try to appeal to a lot more people than just tolken fans or fans of the first game. And sometimes sexy ladies in a hot trailer is a good way to grab someone's attention who otherwise might not be incredibly interested.erttheking said:
Also I'm still gonna go out and say this might be a big hulabub for nothing. Shelob could very well have very little screen time in the game and her presence might ultimately not matter in the slightest. And as you can see from a lot of the comments on this very thread, there are people that are completely fine with it, or simply don't care that much about some random character.
I don't. I mean, does that really strike you as a big demographic? People who aren't LotR fans and who didn't like the first game? I mean, I'm trying to work with you man, but I'm trying to imagine people who think "I don't care for Lord of the Rings and I didn't like the first game, but this game has a sexy lady in it. SOLD!" I...I just can't imagine that kind of person. It doesn't help that they released quite a few trailers before that one. If they're trying to grab attention with a sexy lady, they're doing a pretty lousy job of it.CritialGaming said:
Either way, little screen time or big screen time, it's stupid and adds nothing positive when it could've been a really stupid move. I don't democracy to be a way of validating opinions, but even then I feel like there's more people in here who, at the very least, feel it's a dumb move.
Well I am in that demographic. I mean I played about 4 hours of the first game and thought it was alright. This one looks pretty cool with a more exciting story. But I have never really liked the LotR series at all. I hated the movies (a friend forced me to watch) and I certainly didn't read the books. I found the whole "adventure" boring honestly.erttheking said:
I'm not pulling these mythical people out of thin air, I bring them up because I am one of them. Not a fan of the lore, only thought the last game was "okay", yet i am interested in this new one.
Here is what I will say, if you and Jim Sterling hadn't brought this character to my attention, I never would have even given this game a second thought. But because of you, I watched the trailer, I read up on the lore of Shelob, and I am far more interested in playing this game now, than I was a week ago. So I don't know, sexy spider works for me. And I can't be the only one.
I don't care about the SJW argument. As a heterosexual male, not once have I ever said, man, there are just too many hot chicks in this game. It's so "boring!" My guess is if you think a hot chick is "boring," you are probably not attracted to hot chicks. And that's fine, but that's entirely a "you" problem. The fact is, the majority of gamers are attracted to hot females, and as long as that remains the case, developers are going to very understandably have them in their games.
That said, when I first read LotR, I was about 12, and the Shelob scene scared the sh*t out of me. I remember it was late at night, and everyone else was asleep, and I had to stop reading and turn some lights on. I consider her to be one of the most memorable and classic monsters ever portrayed in literature or film. Making such a drastic change is indefensible, IMO.
That said, when I first read LotR, I was about 12, and the Shelob scene scared the sh*t out of me. I remember it was late at night, and everyone else was asleep, and I had to stop reading and turn some lights on. I consider her to be one of the most memorable and classic monsters ever portrayed in literature or film. Making such a drastic change is indefensible, IMO.
Oh yes, that's the only logical explanation. It's not like I think with my head and not with my dick. No, there's no other logical explanation.Kerg3927 said:
Don't fucking patronize me, and don't you dare fucking pretend you know the first thing about my sexuality. I'm not a fucking stereotype thank you very much.
Yes I know you mainly agree with my point over Shelob, but you telling me what I am and am not attracted to is legitimately fucking insulting to me. I very rarely feel personally insulted on this website, and yet you managed to cross that line. I really do not fucking get why pointing out bored and tired cliches is basis for people to question my sexuality and whether or not I find displays of sexuality acceptable at all. Fucking Christ, am I really such a disgrace to the hetero male demographic because I actually know how to turn it off? That I want SOMETHING ELSE!?
He never mentioned you man. The argument itself comes from a SJW-labeled point of view. There is no need to pounce on somebody like this. Calling out the argument for being SJW is not an attack on you, so why do you feel the need to turn it into one? Are you so insecure in your viewpoint that you have to belittle others for being tired of the general theme of the argument in the first place.erttheking said:
Kerg's comment was a generalization. So chill. His point is off-base a little, but it is still a valid point.
He said if you find it boring, you must not be attracted to hot babes. I directly called this concept boring in my OP. In all caps. If he wrote that afterward, he either wasn't paying attention or was knowingly using that descriptorCritialGaming said:
The generalization was still a massive fucking insult. So what? If you think it's boring, you must not be a heterosexual man? That you cannot simultaneously enjoy attractive woman while also thinking that they're overdone with little counter balance? No! Fuck! That! Noise! And don't talk to me about being insecure in a viewpoint when I'm replying to a man who implied that it's impossible to find oversexualized women done if you're attracted to women. How is that a valid point? How? Does attraction to something prevent you from ever getting sick of it and wanting something else? Not in my experience.
It isn't an insult though. Not really. You are taking it like an insult and over reacting imo.erttheking said:
Let me ask you this. What is the most recent game in which you saw a sexy character (male or female) and thought it was a good character and the sexuality didn't bother you at all?
Because you and I have had these talks before Er, in other threads with very similar situations. And you seem to have a problem with a LOT of sexy characters for the sole principal that they are sexy characters.
(Shelob not withstanding. I get the problem with Shelob.)
I consider people making claims about my sexuality when they don't know the first thing about it to be pretty fucking insulting.CritialGaming said:
Ladykiller in a Bind. Mainly because it's a game ABOUT sex, ergo, sexily dressed characters acting sexy and screwing each other actually fit the tone of the story and was done in a way I hadn't seen before. Hell, a good chunk of the scenes, the main romance paths actually, go full BDSM, with one of the LIs being a dom and the other a sub, and while I haven't gotten far on the sub LI, the dom LI was amazingly well done and even had good emotional moments during the sex scenes (which are VERY graphic and well written.) And the cast was around 70% women who were either gay or bi. And many of them were attractive. And I rather enjoyed it.
Also, not gonna like, I enjoy the sexualized character skins in Overwatch. Mainly because it's egalitarian and in a rather light hearted (in game) setting, with good alternatives if you prefer something more practical. And to be perfectly honest, I'm kind of bummed I didn't get a Witch Mercy skin.
Now. Are we done acting like I don't like sexy women, I just want them in settings where they actually FIT!?
So you want sexy women in games where they fit? Bikini Widowmaker makes sense?
Seems kinda double standardish to me man. What it boils down to is you don't like Shelob being a chick because you like her being a spider 100% of the time (because she will be in spider form for some of it, the trailer showed that), and you dont like it because you don't think it fits.
But Widowmaker fits because reasons. Shelob doesn't fit because magic doesn't count in a fantasy world.
What about fighting games with big titted fighters?
What gives you the right to say what fits where? You have your preferences and that's fine. But Shelob being a spider chick in this game makes no more sense than Widowmaker having a gunfight in a bikini. The difference is that you have decided arbitrarily that one is fine and the other is boring.
Not to mention your example for acceptable sexy ladies, is literally a game about sex. Which doesn't really help your case, because you imply that a woman can never be "sexy" without directly being in a sexual context. So characters like Black Cat, or Bayonetta have no place being sexual because it doesn't fit in a world fighting bad guys....or spiderman?
Fine man have your opinions. But when you post something like that, people are gonna tell you that you make no sense.
Seems kinda double standardish to me man. What it boils down to is you don't like Shelob being a chick because you like her being a spider 100% of the time (because she will be in spider form for some of it, the trailer showed that), and you dont like it because you don't think it fits.
But Widowmaker fits because reasons. Shelob doesn't fit because magic doesn't count in a fantasy world.
What about fighting games with big titted fighters?
What gives you the right to say what fits where? You have your preferences and that's fine. But Shelob being a spider chick in this game makes no more sense than Widowmaker having a gunfight in a bikini. The difference is that you have decided arbitrarily that one is fine and the other is boring.
Not to mention your example for acceptable sexy ladies, is literally a game about sex. Which doesn't really help your case, because you imply that a woman can never be "sexy" without directly being in a sexual context. So characters like Black Cat, or Bayonetta have no place being sexual because it doesn't fit in a world fighting bad guys....or spiderman?
Fine man have your opinions. But when you post something like that, people are gonna tell you that you make no sense.
Yeah, it fits in a game where you can make a daughter fight her mother and three clones of herself. IE, a pretty light hearted game with low stakes and where people regularly shrug off death with a one liner.CritialGaming said:
Not really. A total betrayal of a character in a story we're supposed to take seriously, vs a rather light hearted skin in a light hearted game aren't comparable situations.
Shelob doesn't fit because this ability has been procured from the writer's ass. She's pre established character that's being changed into generic seductress.
If it works and fits the tone, sure. I like most of the Street Fighter ladies. Just don't be super ultra hard core serious and expect me to swallow it up. And but some variety in for god's sake. When every character is sexy it gets boring, not helped by the fact that devs aren't good at variety in sexy ladies.
Ok, Critical? You need to stop asking me "what gives me the right" and saying "you have no right to force your views on people." I don't force my opinions on people, I don't decide what is and isn't morally acceptable, I GIVE MY OPINION ON A FUCKING INTERNET FORUM! You do the exact same thing. So let me ask YOU something. What gives YOU the right to decide all of this is acceptable? What gives YOU the right to force YOUR preferences on people. See what a nonsensical line of reasoning that is?
You asked for an example, I gave you the most recent example, I'm so sorry it was a game all about sex and therefore the sex fit and therefore this proves a point about my prudishness or whatever it is you think I have. I think it works and the other doesn't because of TONE! Tone is a pretty big thing here. Also the presence of good alternatives if you want other types of characters. As far as we know, Shelob is pretty much the only female character in Shadow of War, baring possible exceptions where Talion will see visions of his dead wife, oh the heights of writing. My mind isn't a simple, either bikinis are always good or always wrong one line track. And no, they're fighting bad guys but that's not the same about having a super serious tone where it just does not fit. I don't know where the fuck you got that from. And I said nothing about a game where only sexual ladies can be in it if it's all about sex, mainly since I also listed overwatch, so stop fucking strawmanning me.
If it's people who think I must not be attracted to sexy ladies because I think they can get tiring, I don't think I'll be losing much sleep at night a over it.
Now, are you done cross examining my sexual tastes? I'm finding this a little tiring and more than a bit insulting.