Sexy Shelob...why? Just why?

[Kerg3927]

I don't care about the SJW argument. As a heterosexual male, not once have I ever said, man, there are just too many hot chicks in this game. It's so "boring!" My guess is if you think a hot chick is "boring," you are probably not attracted to hot chicks.

Oh yes, that's the only logical explanation. It's not like I think with my head and not with my dick. No, there's no other logical explanation.

Don't fucking patronize me, and don't you dare fucking pretend you know the first thing about my sexuality. I'm not a fucking stereotype thank you very much.

Yes I know you mainly agree with my point over Shelob, but you telling me what I am and am not attracted to is legitimately fucking insulting to me. I very rarely feel personally insulted on this website, and yet you managed to cross that line. I really do not fucking get why pointing out bored and tired cliches is basis for people to question my sexuality and whether or not I find displays of sexuality acceptable at all. Fucking Christ, am I really such a disgrace to the hetero male demographic because I actually know how to turn it off? That I want SOMETHING ELSE!?

I didn't mean it as an insult. As a hetero male, I could use a lot of different words to describe a beautiful female, but I couldn't imagine ever using the word "boring" (unless I were talking about her personality, but we're obviously talking only about appearance here because we haven't heard her speak). So because of that, I assumed you were of a different demographic than me, with a different point of view. I obviously assumed wrong, and I'm sorry. *removes foot from mouth*

My point was, why does it have to be about the fact that they made her into an attractive woman? If they had made her look like Oprah Winfrey, would you have been just fine with that? The main issue to me is the large deviation from classic Tolkien lore... it's a lot more than just a little artistic license, IMO. It's a re-writing. It would be like if they made Gollum look like George Clooney.

I just don't understand why it has to be made into a social justice issue. It's your opinion about a game. Just like it's my opinion about a game. Why try to make your opinion any more than what it is by claiming some sort of moral high ground, and in the process, shaming game developers for putting too many pretty women in their games and shaming gamers who like them?

 

[Erttheking]

Snip

Thank you very much.

Honestly, because taking a giant spider and saying "let's make her sexy," is just one of the most baffling trains of logic I've seen in a long time. No, that'd be stupid for a whole other host of reasons, albeit with similar roots in "why can't you just let a giant spider be a giant spider."

Because I feel like it's representative of a greater overall lack of creativity in the AAA industry. I mean, Balrogs are present in this game, and they're aren't arbitrarily being turned humanoid, they're just maintaining they're classic demonic look. Overall in the AAA space of gaming, I feel like there's a lack of creativity when it comes to women, people just don't do as much for them. Even when they're strong and independent, they're pretty much always conventionally attractive, even if it royally clashes with the rest of the setting. And they have a tendency to be more humanlike and conventionally attractive. I mean have you ever stopped and considered robots in fiction? If it has a female voice it's pretty much always going to be on a humanlike body, while robots with male voices are able to have much more varied appearances. There are counter examples, but the ratio is skewered. Oh, and please point out where I shamed anyone who liked it. As for shaming devs, we shame devs 24/7 across the internet for doing things we don't like, I don't see how this is different. Also please point out where I tried to take some kind of moral high ground. I didn't say this was immoral in my OP. I said it added nothing, was a tired cliche and was boring. I also pointed out the double standard I mentioned here, but I still fail to see how that's a moral high ground.

 

[DaCosta]

Eh. I get the complaint, but considering I hate the Lord of the Rings movies, and what little of the books I could force myself to endure, and enjoyed Shadow of Mordor as more or less its own game, this might as well be an original character in my eyes, and even if it was faithful to the source material's portrayal I probably wouldn't have noticed it.

 

[Kerg3927]

Snip

Thank you very much.

Honestly, because taking a giant spider and saying "let's make her sexy," is just one of the most baffling trains of logic I've seen in a long time. No, that'd be stupid for a whole other host of reasons, albeit with similar roots in "why can't you just let a giant spider be a giant spider."

Because I feel like it's representative of a greater overall lack of creativity in the AAA industry. I mean, Balrogs are present in this game, and they're aren't arbitrarily being turned humanoid, they're just maintaining they're classic demonic look. Overall in the AAA space of gaming, I feel like there's a lack of creativity when it comes to women, people just don't do as much for them. Even when they're strong and independent, they're pretty much always conventionally attractive, even if it royally clashes with the rest of the setting. And they have a tendency to be more humanlike and conventionally attractive. I mean have you ever stopped and considered robots in fiction? If it has a female voice it's pretty much always going to be on a humanlike body, while robots with male voices are able to have much more varied appearances. There are counter examples, but the ratio is skewered. Oh, and please point out where I shamed anyone who liked it. As for shaming devs, we shame devs 24/7 across the internet for doing things we don't like, I don't see how this is different. Also please point out where I tried to take some kind of moral high ground. I didn't say this was immoral in my OP. I said it added nothing, was a tired cliche and was boring. I also pointed out the double standard I mentioned here, but I still fail to see how that's a moral high ground.

You said yourself that you were "bringing up an ess-jay-double u topic", and that you knew it would piss a lot of people off, but you were going to do it anyway. And what is "social justice?" "Justice" is defined as "just behavior or treatment." And "just" is defined as "based on or behaving according to what is morally right and fair." To be an SJW or to take an SJW position is by definition claiming the moral high ground.

And I don't think you can trash a dev for putting a particular type of content into games without also being critical of the people who like that particular content. The two go hand in hand. If someone says the porn industry is morally wrong, they are also indirectly saying that the people who like porn are morally wrong.

 

[Erttheking]

Snip

That was something I said more out of bitterness than anything else, because I find from experience that you can't bring up anything in that regard without people labeling you as a SJW, so I was venting my frustrations. I also spelt SJW as ess jay double u in an attempt to show how little respect I have for the term. In all honesty I consider it to be a meaningless buzzword thrown at people in an attempt to shame them for not being content with gaming's status quo.

I can. People like what they like. I'm not going to get on people for liking sexy women, but I will get on the games industry for exclusively pandering to them. I have not been claiming anything is morally wrong, therefore I can not be claiming that the people who consume this stuff are morally wrong.

 

[mecegirl]

Who wants to fuck a spider? If I fuckers a spider, would it be my goo or their goo everywhere?

I've seen that hentai. Dude gets his head chopped off after climax. Totes not worth it.

 

[Kerg3927]

Snip

That was something I said more out of bitterness than anything else, because I find from experience that you can't bring up anything in that regard without people labeling you as a SJW, so I was venting my frustrations. I also spelt SJW as ess jay double u in an attempt to show how little respect I have for the term. In all honesty I consider it to be a meaningless buzzword thrown at people in an attempt to shame them for not being content with gaming's status quo.

I can. People like what they like. I'm not going to get on people for liking sexy women, but I will get on the games industry for exclusively pandering to them. I have not been claiming anything is morally wrong, therefore I can not be claiming that the people who consume this stuff are morally wrong.

Fair enough.

 

[NemotheElvenPanda]

As someone that has read The Silmarillion and a lot of the other material outside the books, this does bother me a bit. Shelob is a monster. She's a demonic spider. Not like Lolth, but a literal demonic spider. Not magical, not a shape-shifter, just a spider with a bit of Lovecraftian horror-lite. She eats her own kids. Shelob was never a sexually attractive woman.

Does that all really matter? In the framework of a multi-million dollar game project that mostly uses the LOTR legendarium for mostly appearance and flavour, not really. It is however a massive departure from the universe and honestly just reeks of pandering to a dudebro audience, as well as just being lazy characterization of what's supposed to be one of most horrific and alien beings in Middle Earth.

 

[EternallyBored]

ya know what gets me

how does shelob even know what a maxi dress and a thigh split even are

if she needs to have a human form why not like....make something that looks like what a spider might think humans look/dress like

like her fashion sense and appearance are based off the people shes encountered and eaten or something

put maybe 5 seconds into it

It's weirdly anachronistic, like if Shelob was a male and took the form of someone in a fedora and three piece suit, her clothes are not something that should exist in that timeframe.

It's one of those weird things I've noticed with fantasy games, women clothing styles will sometimes jump ahead a few centuries so you can put medieval women in things like victorian style dress, corsets, or even shit that didn't really exist until the 20th century. Its one of those things that I don't care about too much, since hey, fantasy and all, but when I do notice it it always sticks out, like if I saw a medieval fantasy male character in board shorts or a suit and tie.

 

[Kerg3927]

And I don't think you can trash a dev for putting a particular type of content into games without also being critical of the people who like that particular content. The two go hand in hand. If someone says the porn industry is morally wrong, they are also indirectly saying that the people who like porn are morally wrong.

I take some issue with this. As a single example, I have a list of recommendations for how the porn industry could clean house and get a few more cops on the beat to make sure everything stays on the up and up. I also watch a lot of porn.

I've been saying this a lot in this forum lately, but it's worth repeating: I don't believe in guilty pleasures. If you like something, then just fucking like it. I don't expect anyone to have to justify their taste to me. If you like that lowest common denominator sort of stuff, then go like it. I can say why I don't like it or if I think that too much of it has a negative impact on the industry and it does not automatically entail a value judgment against other people.

You wanna play DOAX? Play DOAX. You bought tickets to the Brokencyde concert? Have fun. The Bayformers your favorite blockbuster series? Mazel tov.

By the same token, you want to talk shit on the Dragon Age series? No skin off my back. You think Iron Maiden are overrated? I'm still going to see them live. You think American white dudes into foreign cinema are pretentious SJWs? Won't change the fact that I rewatch Seven Samurai once a year.

I'm actually a little distressed by the number of people in gaming who attach their egos to the products they buy, who see any criticism of the work as a personal judgment of them. That's not a healthy way to look at the world. The media you consume does not restrict who you are, but adds to it. You are more than just your favorite games. If you have a criticism, go ahead and say it. I won't take it personally unless you decide to make it so.

Scenario 1) Someone says I like the Dallas Cowboys. Another person says, I'm a Redskins fan... I f'ing hate the Cowboys. There might be some back and forth, but neither side is really going to take offense to the other person's view.

Scenario 2) Someone says I like the Dallas Cowboys. Another person says I hate football. It's too violent. I wish they would outlaw it. It's just a sport pandering to dude bros so they can high five each other and act masculine.

You see the difference?

Example from above...

It ... honestly just reeks of pandering to a dudebro audience...

That goes a little further than saying I don't like this about the game. "dudebro" is basically the reverse equivalent of "f@g" except aimed at heterosexual, masculine white males.

But often it's not so obvious. People will post an opinion about something and ACT like they are merely attacking the something, but in reality they just can't stand the audience that the something is pandering to. People will intentionally not spell out their real motivation for their opinions just so they can have plausible deniability when someone comes back and calls them a SJW or whatever. And that's when things get muddled.

 

[TheMysteriousGX]

Scenario 1) Someone says I like the Dallas Cowboys. Another person says, I'm a Redskins fan... I f'ing hate the Cowboys. There might be some back and forth, but neither side is really going to take offense to the other person's view.

Scenario 2) Someone says I like the Dallas Cowboys. Another person says I hate football. It's too violent. I wish they would outlaw it. It's just a sport pandering to dude bros so they can high five each other and act masculine.

You see the difference?

Not really, I just see three people I don't want to talk football with. Though with the massive cover ups the NFL's been making regarding the effects of sustained repeated concussions and a disturbing number of vocal fans opinions regarding how new rules regarding safety are pussyfing the sport, I can see how person three reached their conclusion. It sounds like your analogy is more true than you think, and not for the reason you think it is.

But there's no excuse for being a Cowboys or Redskins fan. 'Specially the Cowboys.

Example from above...

It ... honestly just reeks of pandering to a dudebro audience...

That goes a little further than saying I don't like this about the game. "dudebro" is basically the reverse equivalent of "f@g" except aimed at heterosexual, masculine white males.

Well ya'll got mad when we called them the stereotypical male gamer or hormone obsessed teens, how should we address those who get upset that box art was modified to accommodate a different country's rating logo and consequently covered up about 5 pixels worth of boob?

"Equivalent to f@g", good Christ, they call SJWs snowflakes...*grumblegrumblegetoffmylawngrumble*

But often it's not so obvious. People will post an opinion about something and ACT like they are merely attacking the something, but in reality they just can't stand the audience that the something is pandering to. People will intentionally not spell out their real motivation for their opinions just so they can have plausible deniability when someone comes back and calls them a SJW or whatever. And that's when things get muddled.

I tend to find things get muddled when you start assuming people's ulterior motivations, yeah. Ever consider just not reading those folks? Like, I've never read a Kotaku article that wasn't linked or otherwise alluded to here. Have never actually been to the Kotaku front page. Games journalists are literally that easy to ignore. I mean, I don't like the Game Theorists. Hate them to the point of near-irrationality. So I blocked their YouTube channel, not complain about their latest anti-gaming, artist decrying content.

 

[Kerg3927]

That goes a little further than saying I don't like this about the game. "dudebro" is basically the reverse equivalent of "f@g" except aimed at heterosexual, masculine white males.

This isn't one of those, "What about teh white menz!!??" things is it? Because I really hope it isn't.

You can laugh it off, and that's fine. The point is everything is relative. "F@g" is insulting someone for their perceived lack of masculinity. "Dudebro" is insulting a masculine person by stereotyping him as stupid or unrefined. But since nobody's going to feel sympathy for a majority group, insult away.

I think it's all pretty silly. There is no good or bad here. Most people are just competing to better their personal situation and looking out for their own group's self-interest. People in majority groups are trying to hang onto what they have, and people in the minority groups are jealous and trying to do whatever they can to carve themselves out a bigger piece of the pie. And if a minority group ever becomes the new majority group, the roles will simply flip.

 

[Metalix Knightmare]

Yeah, it's dumb as fuck.

Video games are so often a lowest common denominator kinda deal.

Hell, even without the all-ladies-must-be-sexy-even-the-giant-fuck-off-spider thing, the whole taking-a-form-you-are-more-familiar-with is cliche and boring. It mostly comes across as an excuse to be dull and save on special effects, although that shouldn't be an issue in a well funded video game. Besides, she's a giant fucking spider, why does she give a shit?

LCD isn't really unique, or even overly prevalent with games. Twilight, Fifty Shades of Grey, the live action Transformers movies, Reality TV in general, Justin Beiber, all make millions and end up in best sellers lists, and all suck. That's kinda how people tend to work in general.

As for why a giant spider would give a crap to appear human? Her own limitations really. Shelob may be a monster, but she's still smarter than most people. The PC is capable of getting things done that she can't, particularly with those ghost powers his elf buddy has, and he's been shown to have a soft spot in his head when it comes to pretty ladies. It'd be a lot easier to make him do what she wants looking like a sexy witch than a giant spider.

American pop culture in a nutshell:

Spoiler

"Whoa...awesome!!"

Spoiler

"Whoa...OMG/lame/cliche/disgusting cover your eyes junior!!"

Oh for fuck's sake. Are you just ignoring my point to play victim? Of course you are. People can actually do nuance with violence in gaming. They struggle to do anything with sex other than "LOOK! TITS!" IE, the same thing that they're doing in this game.

While you do have a point, it still doesn't change the fact that you tend to have a massive chip on your shoulder when it comes to female sexuality Er.

Plus, do I have to bring up the Superbowl Incident from awhile back? American culture has issues with sex and nudity that honestly reminds me of Jason Voorhees.

You're like a more honest version of Paulie from One Piece.

 

[Zhukov]

As for why a giant spider would give a crap to appear human? Her own limitations really. Shelob may be a monster, but she's still smarter than most people. The PC is capable of getting things done that she can't, particularly with those ghost powers his elf buddy has, and he's been shown to have a soft spot in his head when it comes to pretty ladies. It'd be a lot easier to make him do what she wants looking like a sexy witch than a giant spider.

Dear God, how fucking dull.

"So we want to do a chapter where the hero strikes a sort of devil's bargain with an intelligent demon spider."

"Cool. What kind of design are we aiming for with the spider? I'm sure the art team will have a field day with this."

"I'm thinking woman in a dress."

"Oh."

 

[Metalix Knightmare]

As for why a giant spider would give a crap to appear human? Her own limitations really. Shelob may be a monster, but she's still smarter than most people. The PC is capable of getting things done that she can't, particularly with those ghost powers his elf buddy has, and he's been shown to have a soft spot in his head when it comes to pretty ladies. It'd be a lot easier to make him do what she wants looking like a sexy witch than a giant spider.

Dear God, how fucking dull.

"So we want to do a chapter where the hero strikes a sort of devil's bargain with an intelligent demon spider."

"Cool. What kind of design are we aiming for with the spider? I'm sure the art team will have a field day with this."

"I'm thinking woman in a dress."

"Oh."

Because people are generally willing to strike bargains with gigantic demon spiders and not attractive women. You DO realize that there is a reason that Lucifer types tend to appear as very attractive beings right? People tend to like and trust the beautiful people moreso than the ugly ones. Heck, Sauron appeared as an angelic being when he started handing out the rings.

The only way anyone would strike a bargain with Spider-Shelob would be if they were driven BEYOND desperation.

 

[Erttheking]

While you do have a point, it still doesn't change the fact that you tend to have a massive chip on your shoulder when it comes to female sexuality Er.

Plus, do I have to bring up the Superbowl Incident from awhile back? American culture has issues with sex and nudity that honestly reminds me of Jason Voorhees.

You're like a more honest version of Paulie from One Piece.

Dude, you wouldn't know what female sexuality was if it kicked you in the groin. You know how I know that? Every time you try to criticize me about "Female sexuality" you talk about a situation that's almost always designed to appeal to heterosexual males. Fuck, people in this thread who defend this have been saying that up and down, saying it's a good thing that they're appealing to heterosexual males. And you're trying to present it as female sexuality? Sure man. Whatever. Anything to paint me as a regressive prude, regardless of how much sense it makes. Please tell me more about the giant man eating spider that is the daughter of a monster that tried to destroy the most holy thing in Middle Earth that is apparently just trying to display her sexuality. (And people wonder why Christopher Tolkien hates everything based on his father's work.) And honest question man. When was the last time you actually talked to a woman about her sexuality? Because I've actually done that. Have you? Oh and BTW, bit of advice. Play Ladykiller in a Bind. A game that's ACTUALLY about female sexuality, mainly because it's about a woman and her desire to have sex, as well as stepping into the world of BDSM when she's utterly unfamiliar with it and exploring her limits. That's female sexuality. Not just empty pandering to hetero males.

Can we tone down on the hyperbole for three seconds please? I know it's tempting to think that because I think that maybe female characters can have roles beyond Not Morrigan seductress #4163 I kill people for having sex, but can you please, you know, base your accusations on things that actually happen?

I'm guessing you either didn't read or selectively ignored that post I made earlier in the thread where I pointed out the aforementioned Ladykiller in a Bind and said I liked the sexy skins in Overwatch or are just flat out ignoring it to prop up that narrative that I hate women expressing their sexuality.

You know, I was going to type out a big rant about how tired I am of people who can't handle tits in video games in criticized so they try to make me be either a prude or someone who hates them but fuck it. You've twisted your internal image of me into being a female sexuality hating prude, so what's the point? If I'm Paulie, you're one of the Marines that believes in Absolute Justice. Anything that goes against you is evil. And there's no real fucking point in trying to convince you to change your mind.

Now if you'll excuse me, this man who apparently has a problem with female sexuality has to play some Overwatch. That goddess Mercy skin isn't gonna unlock itself. Nor is that Widowmaker skin.

 

[Zhukov]

Because people are generally willing to strike bargains with gigantic demon spiders and not attractive women. You DO realize that there is a reason that Lucifer types tend to appear as very attractive beings right? People tend to like and trust the beautiful people moreso than the ugly ones. Heck, Sauron appeared as an angelic being when he started handing out the rings.

The only way anyone would strike a bargain with Spider-Shelob would be if they were driven BEYOND desperation.

Sooooo boring.

See, a good writer would find a way around that. A good writer would use it as a challenge and an opportunity to surprise the audience. "Here's a giant fuck-off spider, a classic monster... BUT she's actually willing to talk. See how we resolve this contrast."

Kind of like how Terry Pratchett took the Grim Reaper, the actual fucking personification of death, a seven-foot, scythe-toting robed skeleton and made him an all time beloved character by making him affable and dripping with ennui. And he didn't need to turn him into a sexy shirtless dude to achieve that because Terry Pratchett was a fucking legend with a pen.

But the people behind Shadow of Mordor are not good writers. They're shit writers. Which is probably why they're writing for video games. Thankfully the people in charge of making the half-ghosty man hit the shouty bads with his sword seem to know their trade.

...

(This next bit is aimed at the thread in general, not just you Metalix.)

Funny coincidence actually, I'm currently reading a book called Perdido Street Station. It's no Pratchett but it's not too bad. There's a scene where a not-very-nice city mayor attempts to recruit aid from a demon, an ambassador from literal Hell. The ambassador appears like an ordinary clean-cut man in an outdated suit. Except when you close your eyes or blink you get a glimpse of what he really looks like. So the entire exchange takes place with the mayor desperately trying to avoid blinking. Also, whenever the ambassador speaks his words are echoed by a barely audible screeching sound coming from far away.

The demon ends up declining the deal. (The whole scene is there to show that the things the mayor is up against are so scary that even demons don't want to get involved.) So the mayor goes to his second choice which is... a giant fuck-off spider. Except there's more to it than that. It's a trans-dimensional creature of nigh godlike power that feeds off aesthetic appreciation, but it's idea of aesthetics is so bizarre and alien that to a human it appears essentially mad. It talks in an unending lilting song heard in the mind of anybody who gets close to it. Oh, and it's obsessed with scissors and accepts them as payment.

That might seem silly. I guess it is. Like I said, it's not the greatest book I've ever read, But it's a whole lot more interesting and creative than what we're getting here in video game land: "Ummm, fuck it, just make have the spider turn into a lady in a dress. Make the dress black, because evil you see. Nailed it."

 

[TheMysteriousGX]

As for why a giant spider would give a crap to appear human? Her own limitations really. Shelob may be a monster, but she's still smarter than most people. The PC is capable of getting things done that she can't, particularly with those ghost powers his elf buddy has, and he's been shown to have a soft spot in his head when it comes to pretty ladies. It'd be a lot easier to make him do what she wants looking like a sexy witch than a giant spider.

Dear God, how fucking dull.

"So we want to do a chapter where the hero strikes a sort of devil's bargain with an intelligent demon spider."

"Cool. What kind of design are we aiming for with the spider? I'm sure the art team will have a field day with this."

"I'm thinking woman in a dress."

"Oh."

"Hasn't that been done, like, every time someone needs to make a deal with the devil?"

"Shut up Marty"

Seriously though, I'm curious to see a "deal with the devil" scenario where the devil does the "appear as a sexy human" but as a dude. I mean, it maybe happened once in a Hellblazer comic I read, but far more often the unimaginable horrors offering highly costed favors look like Mark Shepherd at best. And not well-groomed Mark Shepherd.

 

[Zhukov]

Seriously though, I'm curious to see a "deal with the devil" scenario where the devil does the "appear as a sexy human" but as a dude. I mean, it maybe happened once in a Hellblazer comic I read, but far more often the unimaginable horrors offering highly costed favors look like Mark Shepherd at best. And not well-groomed Mark Shepherd.

Depends. By "sexy dude" do you mean "designed for 100% raw unmitigated sex appeal" or "handsome snappy dresser"?

If the former, then I've probably seen a few examples. If the latter then that's actually quite common.

 

[TheMysteriousGX]

Seriously though, I'm curious to see a "deal with the devil" scenario where the devil does the "appear as a sexy human" but as a dude. I mean, it maybe happened once in a Hellblazer comic I read, but far more often the unimaginable horrors offering highly costed favors look like Mark Shepherd at best. And not well-groomed Mark Shepherd.

Depends. By "sexy dude" do you mean "designed for 100% raw unmitigated sex appeal" or "handsome snappy dresser"?

If the former, then I've probably seen a few examples. If the latter then that's actually quite common.

I've definitely seen more the suave, snappy dresser, but half the time they're got red skin and horns.

I dunno, maybe I'm got a different conception based on horror comics. Though it being common for dudely devils scores another point in the "man, they use this all the time" argument.